Center Camp/coffee debate

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Center Camp/coffee debate

Postby Organgeboy » Sat Nov 01, 2003 8:58 am

This was my first burn and I picked up here and there on the ambivalence about Center Camp and the vending of coffee.

First, can anyone post a brief history on how this feature of BM was introduced? Details of its evolution?

I would like to know where people come down on this issue, and what bases they use for their judgements, pro or con. Here's my take:

Seen from one angle, it seems like a pretty good idea, reflecting a keen understanding of the main demographic on which BM draws. One salient feature of that demographic (you know who you are, Demographic!) is a low-level but entrenched caffeine addiction. Might not such a large populace be on the whole slightly more cranky if they weren't able to ingest their gourmet coffee in the morning?

Also: it's nice to have a central area to which people are drawn after a long night. I enjoyed that opportunity to see all the sleepy people there, and be one of them.

Anyways, I'd like to hear from those who are passionately opposed. Then I can delineate my position more precisely, or else be converted.
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Postby unjonharley » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:53 am

The whole center camp was crap this time out. Here's to a better one in 04.

The "sold" coffee and ice.
The bike repair snotty.
The information center was The mis information.
You may add to list.


Seemed to me the entrenched were on an ego trip. That pretty much go's for the whole front line camps. Some have been there much to long. Some stuff they presented as art has been around for years. Hope the new rules for the ranch will force the good old boys to build something new. Changing the name on the on art is not art. The cry comes: "do you know how much it cost to build new each year". That's bull shit. I'm retired an on a fixed income. I must plane very carefull on what I want present each year. This year will be a pun on the playaheat. When the theme comes out. I will try to bend eather my art or camp to blend with the theme. I don't show my stuff so I can be in the front row every year. If you can't afford it. Move on. Opps Sorry for the subject drift.
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Postby Isotopia » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:53 am

Sweet Jeezus,

For the fourth or fifth time in a row that OrangeBoy has ar-tic-u-lated his thoughts in the form of a lucid question.

Dang boy. We're gonna be watching out for you...

Welcome BTW.
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Postby Isotopia » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:54 am

Unfortunately OrangeBoy, this is a pretty quiet crew. I don't think you'll be getting much input here on the topic. The same with the 'tips at center camp' topic as well.

Nope. No opinions here on that subject....
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Postby PJ » Sat Nov 01, 2003 12:41 pm

unjonharley wrote:...Seemed to me the entrenched were on an ego trip. That pretty much go's for the whole front line camps. Some have been there much to long. Some stuff they presented as art has been around for years...


So? Every year there are plenty of newcomers that be experiencing something old for the first time. The Thunderdome crew has been maintaining the same shtick for years; if their thing is not your thing it's easy enough to go participate in or spectate at some other camp. (Besides, they're doing it more for themselves than for anybody else--that it's a big spectator draw is coincidental.)

I have yet to see everything in a week; since I'm missing much does it really matter if I'm missing something that was built for the 2000 theme or something brand-new?

And I'm often delighted to see something return again, whether it be a stationary piece I really liked or an especially whimsical art car.
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Postby unjonharley » Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:08 pm

it's more for themselves than for anybody else--that it's a big spectator draw is coincidental.)
.
It's based on self centered ego All that blah just to agree with me.huh?
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Postby Lydia Love » Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:16 pm

Unjohn - I think THIS might be the key to PJ's response...

So?


New stuff is **great** absolutely... but I got to experience some of the returning items for the first time this year - and was VERY glad it was there.

As far as Ego involvement and art... wow. There's almost always a great deal of ego involvement in my art and in much of the art I'm most interested in. It's personal, it reflects the artists point of view...


just a different perspective I guess.
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Postby unjonharley » Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:33 pm

As far as Ego involvement and art... wow. There's almost always a great deal of ego involvement in my art and in much of the art I'm most interested in. It's personal, it reflects the artists point of view...
just a different perspective I guess.


/I do not inflick my ego on others. I hummbaly offer my toils. They are ofton skiped over. Most likely the tongue in cheek aspect is missed. Well you know: casting pearls.....When I distroy then with fire is the time of ego for me.
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Postby Ivy » Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:14 pm

Anyways, I'd like to hear from those who are passionately opposed. Then I can delineate my position more precisely, or else be converted.


Please utilize the search function. I know it's still a bit convoluted, but you should be able to find my earlier, strongly anti-cafe vending posts.

Please note that I personally am not against Center camp, merely the vending and tip collecting aspects of the cafe. It should be noted that center camp and the cafe, albeit in the same geograpgic space, are really two very different things.
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Postby PetsUntilEaten » Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:31 pm

I bumped the "experiences in center camp" thread to the top. Its got about 16 pages of opinions. Thats alot of reading.
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Postby Chai Guy » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:50 pm

I think everyone knows how I feel about this already, but for the newbies, read on....

It's an non-commercial event EXCEPT for coffee, chai and ice.

Now the profits from the ice go to the local schools, and while it's true, you could certainly survive with out ice, it does greatly enhance most people's experience on a daily basis, be it the ability to have a cold drink, or to keep food from spoiling. It would be difficult if not impossible for the community to provide ice for itself. If they wanted to get rid of the ice however, I wouldn't protest it.

The coffee and chai is a whole different matter.

First of all Bmorg claims that it operates at a loss. How is that possible? Free Rent (paid for in BLM fees by our ticket money), Free Labor (in the form of volunteers working at the cafe), they charge $3.00 for a chai latte that costs about .75 cents to produce (if that).

There is really no arguement from Bmorg on this. During my Chai Revolution no one stepped forward to explain why (and few people stepped forward in favor of selling coffee/chai). I once heard Larry say something about coffee and community- a central gathering point and some other nonsense, but there are lot's of camps that provide free coffee and chai (like my mobile chai cart). Why can't we rely on participants to provide it?

Have you noticed how many empty coffee cups liter center camp? That's the "it's not my responsibility, I paid for it" attitude.

You don't have to get rid of center camp (though some have argued in favor of this as well). Just stop selling coffee and chai.

And remember, no chai is free until ALL chai is free
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:04 pm

What the hell happened to the poor bastards before ice sales? It started out as: Gee this is good and went to shit like "save me a spot in line. If you can't bring what your going to need.stay home. I leave the playa with ice to spare. I'll be damned if frist thing in the morning I have to walk a 1/2 mile for coffee. Go's some thing like "fuck you" and don't poke the bear!
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Postby Kinetic II » Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:21 pm

Meanwhile, somewhere deep in the wild wild West, a group of cowboys and cowgirls continue whipping dead horses well into the night, never stopping to realize that for all their efforts they are going nowhere.....

IMHO, the odds of ice and coffee / tea sales being pulled from center camp are about the same as the chances for the event to go without a center camp power grid. It's not going to happen. Remember, this is not a democracy it's Larry's event. Obviously he approves of the current structure so until the PTB are influenced, any discussion here is moot.
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Postby DE FACTO » Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:25 pm

:lol:
even though...........
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Postby Chai Guy » Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:41 pm

IMHO, the odds of ice and coffee / tea sales being pulled from center camp are about the same as the chances for the event to go without a center camp power grid. It's not going to happen. Remember, this is not a democracy it's Larry's event. Obviously he approves of the current structure so until the PTB are influenced, any discussion here is moot.


Yeah, probably, but it's really fun to protest, especially when you have a viable alternative solution that you are also willing to help implement.
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Postby DE FACTO » Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:44 pm

Chai Guy wrote:Yeah, probably, but it's really fun to protest, especially when you have a viable alternative solution that you are also willing to help implement.


Now that is something to look foward to seeing next year. Chai Guy sounds like fun.
even though...........
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Postby Ivy » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:54 am

K,

Dubya ain't gonna be recalled but that doesn't mean I'm gonna keep my mouth shut about the way I feel about him.

My landlords aren't going to repair the broken things in my partment but that doesn't mean I should stop writing them letters.

My boss is never going to give mean a raise but I still keep asking.

Do not be content to keep your mouth shut and smile if you're not happy.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:04 am

Chai Guy, I like my chi tai'ed in the morning. {:-)
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Postby KellY » Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:13 pm

You know Chai Guy, if you have this great viable alternative solution to the commercial nature of the cafe, why not just implement it and drive the cafe out of business? Just organize some friends, get enough coffee and chai to supply everyone on the playa for a week, oh, and you'll need milk, and some place to refrigerate the thousands of gallons of milk for the week, and volunteers to serve everyone twenty four hours a day, and a shade structure big enough for several hundred people at a time that can withstand ninety mile-an-hour winds, and some cool art to decorate the place with, and a couple of stages, and some more volunteers to keep the stages running, oh yeah, and garbage for all the waste you'll be accumulating (let me tell you, cleaning used coffee grounds off the playa sucks) and boom, the Center Camp cafe will look like Downtown USA after the Wallmart opens.

I say go for it.
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Postby Kinetic II » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:21 pm

Selling anything even if it's a protest against Center Camp at BM is one of the stupidest ideas to come down the pike. If ANYONE starts selling ANYTHING other than the ORG's non-profit ice, coffee, and tea sales the county and state are going to smell TAX REVENUE. And that draws out all kinds of bureaucrats and other unsavory types who are drawn to money. It's like putting chum out to draw sharks, a practice not advisable unless your ready for it.

With all the bitching about LEO's and the taming of the event now, why on earth would anyone want to invite more legal ANYTHING to the playa? I'm sorry...but this whole idea the way I currently understand it is dumb.
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Postby Ivy » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:47 am

if you have this great viable alternative solution to the commercial nature of the cafe, why not just implement it


Um, Kelly--

That's what he does.

Rome wasn't bulit in a day and all that, y'know?
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Postby Rob the Wop » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:43 am

Wow.

Radical self expression and self reliance. (TM)

Except of porta-potties. But we need them.

And the power grid. That gives us light.

And the ice trucks. That gives us chilled martinis.

And the lattes. Can't live without the lattes.

Y'know, a cheeseburger sounds kinda good.

Oh wait. Better change the motto to "Radical self expression (with exceptions based on local law enforcement requests, see subclause 1b) and somewhat self reliance (as long as it doesn't interfere with my mornings Starbucks-n-muffin)."

For the record, I believe in all of the above- except the lattes. I always thought that was a real buzz kill for BM.

I would LOVE to get a fresh cheeseburger though. With pepper bacon, Tillamook cheese, and Walla Walla onions. Someone please pass it on to Larry. Ditch latte, bring grill.
The other, other white meat.
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:50 am

Hmmm, the politics of Kelly.
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Postby III » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:08 am

>Ditch latte, bring grill

i'm quite sure i remember flash running a burger stand at center camp way back when, before things got all health departmenty and stuff...
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:09 am

III wrote:>Ditch latte, bring grill

i'm quite sure i remember flash running a burger stand at center camp way back when, before things got all health departmenty and stuff...


yes he did along with Ms. P
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:10 am

Is Flash still around and how is he?
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Postby III » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:16 am

haven't heard much from him since he got shot.
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Postby Isotopia » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:25 am

Shot for telling one of the restaurant employees that she didn't know how to cook chicken was what he told me.
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Postby Rob the Wop » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:29 am

Isotopia wrote:Shot for telling one of the restaurant employees that she didn't know how to cook chicken was what he told me.


Them sounds like fightin' werds ta me. He's lucky ta jus git shot.
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:39 am

seriously though what happened to him? he was a blast.
ok...so he was a little crazy and wild.....and loud. but he still was a blast.
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