Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

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Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby FossaFerox » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:02 pm

So the posted regs say that they apply to any "combustible fuel" used for an art installation or "any other purpose" with no minimum before I'm required to have two 20 lb fire extinguishers on hand and store things in a veritable bunker separated from the rest of the camp. I searched the forums here and was quite surprised to find that no one seems to have addressed this question.

At any rate, I'm really hoping this doesn't apply to small containers of kerosene based fuel. I'm camping with a dozen friends this year (mostly virgins) and we're looking at having a sizable common area. I'd love to use my existing coleman dual fuel lantern (using their proprietary "liquid fuel") if possible. The stuff is stable and burns incredibly clean and would give the best light during meal prep; way better than any of the LED options I've looked at. Plus, I know the lamplighters use kerosene lamps and I'd love to have the same soft lighting in our common area for those sunset dinners.

That being said, I don't want to deal with the hassle of providing a 20' fire lane out to a single 1 gallon can of fuel offset from the rest of our camp. Of course, I also don't want to run the risk of having our main light source (and an expensive one at that) confiscated at the gate.
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby mulch » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:23 pm

viewtopic.php?f=278&t=64554

We worked on that topic some recently, dysfunctional though it may have been.

And no, I never got an answer except I found an economical hdpe liner to line a container in and regardless of their Class B fire extinguisher talk, I've spoken to fire fighters and safety people and they say that a dry chemical extinguisher would be more effective out on a potentially windy playa with diesel, kerosene is very similar to diesel.

One big deal, as written you need 2 20 lb. B extinguishers which cost over $300 each. I'm not doing it, I'm bringing ABC type, supposedly better in this application and much cheaper and smaller for 20 lbs
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby Token » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:49 pm

If you are bringing a small amount of Coleman white gas, just use common sense just as you would on any camping trip.

For a gallon or few keep it with your vehicle and away from tent/sleeping areas.

Having a 20# ABC extinguisher in proximity (not right next to the fuel) and accessible is always a good thing. Plus its good to have one back home when you return.
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby GreyCoyote » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:57 pm

I always laugh when fire experts try to make rules and forget that terms like flammable and combustible have real meanings. The terms are different, not interchangeable, and the distinctions are important.

Flammable means the flash point is below 100F. Combustible means the flash point is more than 100F. By this definition most of the fuels you bring to the playa would be exempt. Yet the lower the flash point, the more tempermental and potentially dangerous the liquid becomes.

Technicalities aside, its hard to make a convincing argument you are exempted when any prudent person would just acknowledge an extinguisher is a good idea anyway.

Makes for a good giggle however.

Edit: ref here - http://www.ehs.neu.edu/laboratory_safet ... mbustible/
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby FossaFerox » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:05 pm

Oh, if I can use a standard ABC extinguisher I have two I was planning on bringing anyway. They're small little 4 lb dry chemical extinguishers but they have a discharge time that's on par with a 20 lb CO2 (13-15 instead of 15-17 seconds). The other issue is storage once we're in camp. Obviously they won't know or care when we're coming through the gate, but in the interest of being a good person is it fine to leave the fuel can in the car? It's a 1 gallon, single use can. I think the storage guidelines set out to store 110 gallons of Diesel are a little overboard, but now it's a question of balancing common sense against what the written rules.

There are so few written rules I feel bad disregarding them...
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby Canoe » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:25 pm

The thread title wouldn't get your attention on this issue, so here's a link.
viewtopic.php?f=280&t=64618#p945033

The only certain way is to follow the letter of the rules.
That said, I've been informed that if we have under 20 gallons (over 20 gallons is the trigger for requiring Secondary Containment within the rules), we would likely be left alone from the letter of the rules – provided our fuel is stored safely and in approved-for-fuel containers. With the strong caution that BLM WILL issue tickets to those found spilling or that they consider are storing fuel improperly.

I would think that NOT having an appropriate fire extinguisher would be considered as failing proper storage.

  • Note the part about 20 gallons being the threshold for secondary containment rules.
  • Note the part about using only approved containers.
  • A cheap way to avoid spills hitting the playa surface while refueling (and any resulting fines/eviction), is a simple large metal cookie sheet from the dollar store; do set both the lantern and the container on the sheet before you touch them to open the lids so any static charge equalizes.
    (Always a good idea to avoid fuel into "soil". I once had some fuel spill through a 1" top layer of fine-gravel/stone-dust over soil and later ignite; got a 6' to 12' fire tornado that swirled for a long time.)

Of course with sudden winds and suddenly appearing drunks, I assume you'd only have this lantern running while supervised.
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby FossaFerox » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:42 am

I'll be leaving the fuel can (which the fuel is sold in) in the car and filling in the back of the SUV, mostly to avoid dust getting into the lantern's fuel reserve. With the two dry chem extinguishers I was planning on bringing already it looks like I'm all set. Thanks a bunch guys!
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby Canoe » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:20 am

Just watch out for the temperature inside the vehicle. On-playa, people have been known to bake cookies on their dash in the sun. Watch for pressure in the can.
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:57 am

Do Not Store any Fuel in the passenger/trunk area of A car..

Store your fuel in the north west side of the shelter.. Do not tighten the lids all the way.. If tight, when opened it will release a sudden rush of vapor.. Any spark or flame near by will light it.. Fuel your lantern or stove out and away from your shelter.. Stay close any time ether one is lit.. Or throw the damn things away and buy modern ones.. I have both blow up on me.. Near burned the whole camp down with the stove.. The lantern was under the fender of a 50's Plymouth.. While cold adjusting the valves..Walk away abut ten steps and it blow the fender off..

No more of the pump up style for me.. 30 plus years in the fire restoration I have seem other fire from the same items..
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby Captain Goddammit » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:05 am

FossaFerox wrote:I'll be leaving the fuel can (which the fuel is sold in) in the car


Really bad idea! Hey, let's put the extremely flammable stuff in the hottest possible place! Jesus...
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:36 am

While on the subject..... Get those tagger cans out of your car/van or what ever..

Here is how to blow your hand off: Leave a half empty aerosol can in your car.. Wait until it's well over 100 degrees in the car. Grab the can for a quick shake and touch up spray.. Your new playa name will be Stubby.. Or if you really hate your car.. That car rolling around in your trunk can blow.. Maybe even get the gas tank while your at it.. Happy motoring, ya'all
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:37 am

unjonharley wrote:While on the subject..... Get those tagger cans out of your car/van or what ever..

Here is how to blow your hand off: Leave a half empty aerosol can in your car.. Wait until it's well over 100 degrees in the car. Grab the can for a quick shake and touch up spray.. Your new playa name will be Stubby.. Or if you really hate your car.. That can rolling around in your trunk can blow.. Maybe even get the gas tank while your at it.. Happy motoring, ya'all
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby AntiM » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:10 am

I'm thinking fumes accumulating in the vehicle. Store it outside, in a spot of shade. Just don't fill the lantern during a white out and you're good to go. We have a Coleman which uses white gas, and have had no problems filling it without getting dust into it.
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby GreyCoyote » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:22 am

unjonharley wrote:While on the subject..... Get those tagger cans out of your car/van or what ever..

Here is how to blow your hand off: Leave a half empty aerosol can in your car.. Wait until it's well over 100 degrees in the car. Grab the can for a quick shake and touch up spray.. Your new playa name will be Stubby.. Or if you really hate your car.. That car rolling around in your trunk can blow.. Maybe even get the gas tank while your at it.. Happy motoring, ya'all


Hyperbole. Might have applied in 1962, but that was a different century with different rules. We moved-on. Even the Ford Pintos got fixed.

Google spray can design. Current generation cans have not one but two fail-messy-but-harmless modes. The radical pressure curves of yesterdays propellents are gone too.

Great video on youtube. A guy takes a dozen cans of spraypaint and tries to get them to fail fatally. He finally got a boom out of a can of starting fluid when he hit it with a tracer round at 25 yds, but you can get more kabang than he did at your local fireworks store.
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:46 am

GreyCoyote wrote:

Hyperbole. Might have applied in 1962, but that was a different century with different rules. We moved-on. Even the Ford Pintos got fixed.

Google spray can design. Current generation cans have not one but two fail-messy-but-harmless modes. The radical pressure curves of yesterdays propellents are gone too.

Great video on youtube. A guy takes a dozen cans of spraypaint and tries to get them to fail fatally. He finally got a boom out of a can of starting fluid when he hit it with a tracer round at 25 yds, but you can get more kabang than he did at your local fireworks store.


Oh Well, Most burner are into death defant shit..
But do you want to take a chance :?: :?: :shock:
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby EspressoDude » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:35 pm

not mentioned yet, but it is not smart to fuel the lanterns while they are burning or still hot..........
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:41 pm

EspressoDude wrote:not mentioned yet, but it is not smart to fuel the lanterns while they are burning or still hot..........

Missed that when I suggested to take the stove or lantern into the open and away from your shelter when refueling..
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:54 pm

In all my years in fire work.. It has never ceased to amaze me, How people can find so many ways the burn or blow there self up.. Regardless of safety effort by the manufacturers..
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby tattoogoddess » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:25 pm

I guess this kinda goes with this, but storage of those little green two pound colman propane canisters, where is the best place to store when not in use and have not been opened yet.
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby BBadger » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:11 am

Those pressurized gas canisters? Just put the cap back on them and leave them on a shelf in the garage (or closet or somewhere out of the way).
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:05 am

tattoogoddess wrote:I guess this kinda goes with this, but storage of those little green two pound colman propane canisters, where is the best place to store when not in use and have not been opened yet.


Notice one of Grandfathers bottles was leaking.. Open his tool shed next to the house.. WoW... So those things will leak.. I would store them outside away from the sun..
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:05 am

On the subject of lanterns... You can get metal screen to replace the glass..

So sounds like a good idea to me.. The wind blows and knocks things around..
I'm much happier with no broken glass.. Not sure but Standport camp stuff seems where I saw the replacements..
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby Sic Pup » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:18 am

unjonharley wrote:On the subject of lanterns... You can get metal screen to replace the glass..

So sounds like a good idea to me.. The wind blows and knocks things around..
I'm much happier with no broken glass....


.... and it has the added benefit of not having to worry about stepping on the glass in the dark.:wink:
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby tattoogoddess » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:31 am

I'm talking on playa... No garage there.

Would in the tent work or under the truck?
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby unjonharley » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:51 am

tattoogoddess wrote:I'm talking on playa... No garage there.

Would in the tent work or under the truck?


After finding a leaky one in a closed area.. I would not put it in a sleeping/living area..
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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby JayBobBoy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:46 pm

I've always taken to storing my fuel under my truck or in the shade away from my sleeping area. I usually have propane cylinders, a few gas cans, and the smaller green canisters. As with everything of value, take care to keep it secure!

Just don't be a total dipshit and you'll probably be fine....

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Re: Fuel storage regs and gas lanterns?

Postby tattoogoddess » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:00 pm

Have you met me? Jk

Next question... What is the easiest liqure store to rob on i-80 between iowa and fernley? We need more booze for camp. :twisted:
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