Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

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Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby mulch » Thu May 23, 2013 2:01 pm

http://www.burningman.com/installations ... orage.html

so has anyone had fuel delivered? We wanted to bring a bit of extra diesel for the generator, our project uses electricity as well as the AC and such. The regulations arent that bad, but 2 20 lb fire extinguishers are pretty expensive, valid containment devices are expensive, and they dont even want you pouring fuel, they want electric pumps.

if one uses the fuel suppliers and got, say, a 55 gallon barrel of fuel, would they also supply the accesories as mentioned? sure I can and might call them, but was hoping for some enduser experiences. And for such deliveries, how does one let the company know your final location?

if you were to bring 4 or 5 - 5 gallon metal jerry cans, will they stop you at the entrance if you dont have 2 20 lb extinguishers, bonefide containment equipment, and electric pumps??
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby unjonharley » Thu May 23, 2013 2:43 pm

For crying out loud..

Stay the fuck home if you need so much comfort..

Burning Man is a Pack it in....Pack it out.

Store fuel in the shade of your truck, van/car. Lose the caps for expanded air/fumes.. No Smoking in area.. Fume can travel a long ways along the ground.. The fumes light easy and the flame will travel back to the fuel cans in a flash..
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby GreyCoyote » Thu May 23, 2013 3:50 pm

I guess the flaming now starts on Post #2, not Page 2?

Mulch: we bring our own diesel in a bed-mounted 100 gallon transfer tank with an electric pump. Never had anyone inquire about it, or about fire extinguishers either, but we do keep them around camp anyway. Maybe they look at my truck (diesel) and just figure its an extended range or something.

You might look at the price of fuel handling equipment. It really isnt that bad. You can pick up a used 50 or 100 gal tank cheaply. A manual transfer pump will set you back about $80. Hoses can be easily scavenged for nect to nothing (filling stations have to replace them on a schedule to keep their insurance rates low). A manual nozzle runs about $35. Bolt the whole thing in the bed of your truck.

The nice thing about diesel is the safety aspect. Hard to get explosive ignition without REALLY trying. Fumes (ahem) are not a problem.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby unjonharley » Thu May 23, 2013 4:04 pm

I bring enough fuel for the 160 mile plus 60 trip in and out to the fuel station..
If you figure in a long exit line and the 160 mile station is out of gas (happened)you better have enough.. This year my MV will be a hi-bred.. This means more fuel so I'll just buck up and bring it.. Been collecting metal Jerry Cans.. They tie down nicely over the trailer axel .
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby mulch » Thu May 23, 2013 4:17 pm

[ nope. -- Savannah ]

and thank you GreyCoyote for the thoughts.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby Savannah » Thu May 23, 2013 4:25 pm

if you were to bring 4 or 5 - 5 gallon metal jerry cans, will they stop you at the entrance if you dont have 2 20 lb extinguishers, bonefide containment equipment, and electric pumps??


If you feel like what you're planning mighty be iffy, please write fuel (at) burningman (dot) com for clarification. You haven't done anything yet. Whatever money you save on precautions will not make up for being turned away or having stuff confiscated.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby trilobyte » Sun May 26, 2013 10:09 pm

Fuel delivery companies just deliver fuel. You're responsible for providing both the safety equipment and also the containment equipment/shelter. Fire extinguishers, etc. Make sure you have fuel-resistant tarps underneath any large containers so that if there's spillage during transfer, it doesn't hit the playa. Keep it under a shade structure (because 55 gallon drums of fuel become dangerously hot and expand in the heat of day. Yes, that shit costs money and those costs add up, but if you can't afford to do it right you can't afford to do it. Scale back your fuel consumption and power needs if you're not capable of managing a large supply safely.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby EspressoDude » Mon May 27, 2013 8:02 pm

If you are worried about the cost of 2 extinguishers, you probably can't afford the rent for a diesel generator.

If you have a big diesel generator, the delivery companies can fill its tank and you don't need to have an extra drum laying around.

Some of the worst messes on the playa are from diesel spills, and you will get a red or worse a black mark in your camp on the final moop map. These spills need to be excavated to clean soil and the contaminated stuff removed from the playa. This mess may affect your placement or other things in following years.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby lemur » Mon May 27, 2013 8:53 pm

the cost of a few crispy friends, or a burned down vehicle/person/structure will far outweigh the costs of a few extinguishers (that will still be working just fine after the event, if you dont need to use them)



signed: someone who saved a lot of anguish when a fire extinguisher was right at hand when Shit Got Serious.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby ranger magnum » Mon May 27, 2013 10:12 pm

unjonharley wrote:For crying out loud..

Stay the fuck home if you need so much comfort..

Burning Man is a Pack it in....Pack it out.

Store fuel in the shade of your truck, van/car. Lose the caps for expanded air/fumes.. No Smoking in area.. Fume can travel a long ways along the ground.. The fumes light easy and the flame will travel back to the fuel cans in a flash..


The real danger here is super heated diesel and vapor. Diesel has a higher flashpoint at about 143F, much like frying oil in a pan. Put veggie oil in a pan, and you can put a match out in it. But what happens when it is super heated? One spark and it goes off like a rocket.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby MikeGyver » Mon May 27, 2013 10:36 pm

I don't know about where your at, but around here when you rent diesel generators they have a fire extinguisher on them. Then you get charged to refill/replace if it was used/lost. I keep one in almost all (should be all) of my vehicles. 9 out of 10 times its used for someone else, but that 1 time you'll wish you had one. I've watched a 100k RV go up in flames in the desert(local not BM) because nobody had an extinguisher.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby mulch » Wed May 29, 2013 8:55 am

so I cleared a few things up by emailing fuel@b_m_.com

first, the thoughts about a fire extinguisher being a good investment and if you cant afford one yada yada.... I understand all that, but one of the info pages I read said you couldnt have an ABC, you needed just a CO2 20 lbs x 2. they are over $300 each, and while Im financially able to buy anything I want, that seems wasteful for a several Jerry cans of diesel. Anyway, they guy at fuel@bm.com says that an dry chemical extinguishers are ok, but you need two (ABC type)and they are much cheaper and smaller per weight. They need to change the info page information.

also, I kinda figure that people bring a few small cans and dont have a bonefide fuel containment system and dont have 2 20 lb extinguishers, in fact I can almost guarantee it. but who wants to run into a problem if investigating ahead of time helps out. even if someone tries to annoy you .

So the fuel guy says that even if you have just 2 x 5 gallon fuel cans, you need two extinguishers. naturally he isnt going to comment on how strictly such is enforced, but since the ABC extinguishers are cheap, Ill just play by the rules exactly. they say for a collection of small cans you can use a fuel proof tarp and raised edges... try googling that up and its hard to find. in fact, fuel proof or fuel resistant tarp googled mostly brings you to the burningman page that recommends it, there really isnt such a thing easily available anyway. so go figure.
Last edited by mulch on Wed May 29, 2013 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby lemur » Wed May 29, 2013 9:06 am

Don't link to anything here!
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby mulch » Wed May 29, 2013 9:18 am

thank you sir. I'm appearently a googlenoob.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby swampdog » Wed May 29, 2013 1:09 pm

You're probably correct that few people follow the rules to the letter.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby lemur » Wed May 29, 2013 1:10 pm

being informed and at least attempting to do it right goes a long way when you eventually fuck up and do it wrong
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby swampdog » Wed May 29, 2013 2:07 pm

sorry, didn't mean to imply that teh rules aren't useful as a guideline. And definitely better to know the rules and do your reasonable best to follow.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:32 pm

We're bringing an art car this year for the first time, planning on having a 55 gallon drum delivered on-playa.

I sent the fuels dudes an email and haven't heard back yet, but knowing whether or not is really necessary to spend $700 on fire suppression vs. 300 would be awesome. That's 400 more I get to spend on lights.

Those neoprene tarps are expensive. And then you gotta buy wood, then build a containment pond... I like the idea of one of these: http://www.bettymills.com/shop/product/ ... -1612.html

Or one of these for a few Jerry cans:

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00054273/k-G0508225
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby GreyCoyote » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:44 pm

If you have multiple drums to deal with, they make a spill containment pallet that will handle 4 ea 55 gal drums. Uline (and others) carry them, but you might check with industry sources for used ones too. As an example I got one from an herbicide distributor that I have been using (not on playa) for years. Cost me $50 and a few minutes with a pressure washer. Maybe you can score something similar.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:55 pm

Note: After going back to reread the page after posting I found this:

"Note: A petroleum, flammable liquid, fire burns at the surface of the material, as it is vaporized by the fire or ambient heat. Applying water merely spreads the flaming liquid over a wider area, where it vaporizes more rapidly, intensifying the fire. The best way to put out such a fire is to cut off its air supply or interrupt its chemical chain reaction. The smothering agents commonly used for petroleum fires are carbon dioxide (CO2) and dry chemical powder extinguishers. Both are effective for flammable liquids, but dry chemical is better for outdoor use because it's not subject to wind, has a longer range and can extinguish pressurized leaks of gas and liquid. For good all-around fire protection, use an ABC or all-class fire extinguisher."


Approx six paragraphs after this:

" Note: ABC rated extinguishers should NOT be used as they contain monoammonium phosphate. This material can inhibit the effectiveness of fire-fighting foam should the need arise."
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby mulch » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:59 pm

I emailed fuel@burningman.com and asked if you needed 2 20 lb extinguishers even if you had just 2 or 3 5 gallon jerry cans of diesel. His reply describes using a dry chem extinguisher, which is an ABC type, so I figure he hasnt read that page and it isnt as critical as that page makes it sound.

this was my reply from "dave x"

Hello

Thanks for wanting to protect the Playa and store you fuel safely...

The 2 extinguishers are to make sure you have a back up one should the first be used at some point during the event. if you need more than two because the fire can not be extinguished with two you need to get the ESD fire department to deal with it as it is too big for you to safely address.
Once a dry chem extinguisher is used even once the powder get caught in the valve and by the next day all of the charging gas is dissipated making it a paper weight.

Filling using a can is using gravity but it is not what we are referring to. We are referring to something like a 55gl drum on a stand with a shut off valve. if the valve is not closed or is sheared off all of the fuel leaks out.

I hope that clarifies things for you and please let me know if you have more questions.

Dave X


and then I replied, what if you had just one, or two, do you need 2 20 lb ones. I wanted him to clarify, because it seems silly to have 2 big fire extinguishers for one can of fuel, but they dont make a threshold. So he replied to me as below. It kind of sounds like its being made up on the fly with this reply.
---------------------------
If you bring 1 20lb and a backup smaller one it will work....

DX

---------------------------------
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby mulch » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:49 pm

If one gets fuel delivered, how does the supplier find you on the playa??
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby GreyCoyote » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:10 pm

Mulch: three things are useful to help them find you:

1). Agree on a delivery time window and coordinates ("H and 5:45")
2). Have someone there to spot and flag them down.
3). Make sure flagger is female, young, naked, and holding a "free cold beer and hugs" sign.

I am only partially kidding. Hehehehe
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby trilobyte » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:54 am

What GreyCoyote said :)

For the most part, camps with a big enough operation that they're working out fuel delivery are camps that are going the registered route, which means they'll have an approximate playa location in advance. That will get them into the neighborhood, and big, easy-to-read signs (at the corner and at the front of your camp) will help you make things go more smoothly.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby Major Krash » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:06 am

there is a difference between performance and permission....

The OP seems to be seeking permission, in written form. This will always be in the form of least helpful/most-restrictive/followed-by-almost-no-one (due to our Lawyer-rich society)

What is important is that you do not spill fuel onto the playa and that you do not start an unintended fire. If you do not know how to avoid those two things, re-consider your fuel use.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:16 am

Permission, or clarification of unclear and contradictory guidelines?

Sometimes I wonder how much of this is for actual safety, or to maintain the appearance that were not just a bunch of clueless hippies with flame throwers.

Anyways, haven't heard back from the fuel dude yet, but I did just get off the phone with Sierra Fuels, and those guys are great. Was told that they do sell pumps, from cheapie hand lever action pumps for $30 to hi dollar 12 volt pumps for hundreds that will come with the barrel of fuel. Wen I asked him about fuel storage he said that a lot of people use plastic kiddie pools. Which are like $15 as opposed to over $100 for a fancy plastic thing. Meeks that an easy choice.

[quote="]

What is important is that you do not spill fuel onto the playa and that you do not start an unintended fire. If you do not know how to avoid those two things, re-consider your fuel use.[/quote]

Right, but understanding the correct insurance to have is helpful. We all insure our cars and wear seatbelts, and it could be said if you do not know how to safely navigate a road in a vehicle you should reconsider your use of transportation.

I don't intend on bringing fire extinguishers and a secondary containment because I'm incompetent and its unavoidable that I'm going to spill gas every where and then light myself on fire. But I want to (and it would appear to be required) to have the proper safety and LNT provisions *just in case*, and trying to understand what exactly that is for a first time is not made any easier by confusing web pages and non-communicative department contacts.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby lemur » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:35 am

it reads to me like youre hunting out what the minimum you can do is while still meeting up with expectations.
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby mulch » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:19 pm

I really never wanted anything in writing except that I wanted to be sure I had a plausible answer or reference if the greeters were somehow planning to be strict at the entrance.

But my problem is solved now. Remember, you just need this stuff for a couple of weeks and I asked a friend who runs a big warehouse and he has a fresh 55 gal barrel, hand pump, and a containment setup for it that he is going to loan me. I'll figure out if I can use the ABC extinguishers that I have or if I have to buy or borrow a CO2 extinguisher depending on the replies others get. Looks like our neon displays, hippie wash 2000 and ACs can run all week.

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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:51 pm

Running a generator day and night while others are having quiet time.. It just may end up running on sugar..

Strange things happen on the playa.. Eight tires go flat, beer in a sound mixer and generators die..
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Re: Fuel delivery on playa and fuel storage rules

Postby mulch » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:18 pm

I've got a $10,000 stainless steel Fischer panda diesel built into my 73 renovated Rv. Your farts are louder than my generator. There are 6 golf cart batteries built in with a huge in inverter, so the generator only runs when those run out. You can run one ac on them for about 4 hours. And of course at night you don't need ac at all and the batteries can do everything else all night. And if there was a problem, unlike some people, I know how to not be rude and would be sure my neighbors were happy. I'm going with the plan to be nothing but helpful and have a great time. Worry about yourself, I'll be better at this my first time than you have ever been
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