Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

All things outside of Burning Man.

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby AntiM » Fri May 03, 2013 7:45 am

LOL, that was pure Genius....
These are not my fuckos.
User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
 
Posts: 16391
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:23 am
Location: Top O' the World, Ma!
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri May 03, 2013 7:48 am

in all seriousness, on of the best years was 2011 with the booby bar / anti-m and the rest of terminal city.

it was homey, comfortable, low pressure, and fun.


it was fun......we had the most wonderful time doing not so much....we saw the art, we wandered, we played, we did not hit one single dance camp, not one.


it was not over the top, it was reasonable and creative and spontaneous, and one of my favorite burns, ever.


trilo said it so well a while ago, and to this day it sticks with me....Bigger is Not Better, Better is Better.


small and simple can be enormous, in it's own way.
breathe deep, the playa is the dust of your ancestors

A gift for the Playa
User avatar
Simon of the Playa
 
Posts: 13859
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Rochester, Nevada.
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Fri May 03, 2013 7:56 am

what? no more sleeping on sub woofers?


my my, someone is getting old.
one nation, under a groove.
User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
 
Posts: 2657
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby AntiM » Fri May 03, 2013 8:19 am

I tell you whut, Simon in camp every morning is quite the treat. Well, morningish.

Booby Bar was indeed delightful.
These are not my fuckos.
User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
 
Posts: 16391
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:23 am
Location: Top O' the World, Ma!
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri May 03, 2013 10:44 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:in all seriousness, on of the best years was 2011 with the booby bar / anti-m and the rest of terminal city.

it was homey, comfortable, low pressure, and fun.


it was fun......we had the most wonderful time doing not so much....we saw the art, we wandered, we played, we did not hit one single dance camp, not one.


it was not over the top, it was reasonable and creative and spontaneous, and one of my favorite burns, ever.

*sigh*
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37425
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby 48_love » Fri May 03, 2013 12:39 pm

I'm not understanding the negative externality completely, I guess.

It may be unbecoming, annoying and lame ... but we're talking about 60K people.

Lameness is surely to abound, and if not abound, it may be very evident at the margins.

What does the so-called begging threaten?

Or, is it just annoying?

Srs questions, lol.
User avatar
48_love
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:58 pm
Burning Since: 2013

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby ygmir » Fri May 03, 2013 2:35 pm

[insta][/insta]
AntiM wrote:LOL, that was pure Genius....



I thought he was going to tear my arm off and beat me with it.
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25992
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby AntiM » Fri May 03, 2013 2:39 pm

LOL. I don't think you'd have let him do that. But sweet of him to make the attempt!
These are not my fuckos.
User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
 
Posts: 16391
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:23 am
Location: Top O' the World, Ma!
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby AntiM » Fri May 03, 2013 2:39 pm

48_love wrote:I'm not understanding the negative externality completely, I guess.

It may be unbecoming, annoying and lame ... but we're talking about 60K people.

Lameness is surely to abound, and if not abound, it may be very evident at the margins.

What does the so-called begging threaten?

Or, is it just annoying?

Srs questions, lol.



I think it is because it is a fairly new phenomena with online venues such as kickstarter and indiegogo, just the last few years, and was not given an active arena on eplaya previously. Fundraising was done in a more localized way, often in participatory ways such as parties (burner bake sales). Or the camp charged dues or in kind donations of booze, etc. in order to pull off a camp. This outright asking for monetary donations directly is much newer, and does not sit well with some participants. This being eplaya, not everyone is shy about voicing an opinion.
These are not my fuckos.
User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
 
Posts: 16391
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:23 am
Location: Top O' the World, Ma!
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby Eric » Fri May 03, 2013 3:54 pm

AntiM wrote:I think it is because it is a fairly new phenomena with online venues such as kickstarter and indiegogo, just the last few years, and was not given an active arena on eplaya previously. Fundraising was done in a more localized way, often in participatory ways such as parties (burner bake sales). Or the camp charged dues or in kind donations of booze, etc. in order to pull off a camp. This outright asking for monetary donations directly is much newer, and does not sit well with some participants. This being eplaya, not everyone is shy about voicing an opinion.


When it comes to theme camps, I fall into the above group.

I belong (more or less) to two camps: BRC Weekly/ Bootie BRC and Fandango. Fandango is mostly paid for by the members, with maybe a couple small local fundraisers, BRC Weekly/ Bootie BRC is paid for out of pocket by our producers/ publisher. 30,000 free newspapers that we give away every year - no fundraisers, all out of pocket. With Bootie we're lucky that it's popular enough on the playa that sound-camps invite us to play, so we don't have to bring a set-up, however - we do have one. We can and have set it up & just played it at Fandango - small scale, did a great job, we're always packed. While it's great to play at the Big Camps, it's not a requirement to having fun.

It was quoted above, but I'll quote it again:
Trilobyte wrote:Bigger isn't better. Better is better.
Survival Guide * First Timers Guide * Ticket Info

Regarding Ticket Scalpers and Scammers

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Eric ShutterSlut
BRC Weekly
User avatar
Eric
Moderator
 
Posts: 7108
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby Savannah » Fri May 03, 2013 3:54 pm

AntiM wrote:
48_love wrote:I'm not understanding the negative externality completely, I guess.

It may be unbecoming, annoying and lame ... but we're talking about 60K people.

Lameness is surely to abound, and if not abound, it may be very evident at the margins.

What does the so-called begging threaten?

Or, is it just annoying?

Srs questions, lol.



I think it is because it is a fairly new phenomena with online venues such as kickstarter and indiegogo, just the last few years, and was not given an active arena on eplaya previously. Fundraising was done in a more localized way, often in participatory ways such as parties (burner bake sales). Or the camp charged dues or in kind donations of booze, etc. in order to pull off a camp. This outright asking for monetary donations directly is much newer, and does not sit well with some participants. This being eplaya, not everyone is shy about voicing an opinion.


Agreed . . . the local touch was helpful.

Stuff that seems to go over well . . .

* A beautiful, original, or touching goal planned
* Being local, or being known in some capacity
* Great likelihood of the finished result being easily experienced or easy to find
* At least a modest reward (fundraiser party, baked goods, swag)
* Donation size = reasonable for the intended use
* Result of fundraiser goal to be shared with many
* Contributing things of your own in addition to asking for outside help

Stuff that seems to piss people off: great deviations from the above, combined with a complete lack of self-awareness about what's lacking.
*** 2013 Survival Guide ***

"I must've lost it when I was twerking at the trash fence." -- BBadger

"Snark away, ePlaya, you magnificent bastards." -- McStrangle
User avatar
Savannah
Moderator
 
Posts: 10525
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:33 pm
Burning Since: 2000

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby lemur » Fri May 03, 2013 4:02 pm

even great and mighty things can sour the milk...for example.. the temple...

of course the reasons those fundraisers can sour the milk are different and varied.. (fuck you Larry, why dont you and your rich friends pay for that shit?)

either way. its generally turning to shit.

when is jerry lewis gonna start bugging our asses to donate?

who is this years poster child ?


Image

more importantly, who is gonna read this years tally ?
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Sun May 05, 2013 8:42 am

de-commodify.



maybe find ways to get shit done without money.


scrounge up or get materials donated. Use what you Have or join forces with others to pool resources.


sure, if you got the big bucks, by all means, spend it on the playa, we love your gift...and we appreciate it when it comes out of your pocket, because you can afford it and you want to do it because you love burning man.

remember,the green bikes were donated...remember, the 100 cases of jamesons was donated.....ALOT is donated by those with means...i do not want to shit on the notion of having resources, but i also dont want people to think that in order to "Win" burning Man you need 100k and a team of professionals.

some of the best pieces of art are small bits of genius, not huge hunks of dumb.


money cannot buy you everything....i know many wealthy people who are miserable as shit....i know some who can buy anything, except a second chance, or the one their heart desires.

The Damien Hurst Model for Art does not apply, you do not need to encrust your shit in diamonds to make it shine and sparkle.

crowd-sourcing is a very nifty phenomena, and it provides talent with much needed funding, it is indeed a playing field leveler, which seems to be working for many.

people like to be part of something bigger, this is an easy way to do it, the big question is, at what point are we just robbing peter to pay paul as we all chip in to everybody elses projects? maybe thats not such a bad thing either, but it begs the question "remember when we didnt have all of this available to us?" We had just as much wonderful...i was there...it was wonderful...

we cannot go backwards, we also cannot forget where we have been, as we try to guide ourselves into the future with care and foresight based on what has occurred and is occurring.

you cant blame kickstarter or indiegogo or those that utilize it and make Great Things.

only those that think that this is an easy way to get their shit funded without having to do any sweat equity for it.




i guess it's up to us to decide which is which by whether or not we open our wallets.

Caveat Emptor.
breathe deep, the playa is the dust of your ancestors

A gift for the Playa
User avatar
Simon of the Playa
 
Posts: 13859
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Rochester, Nevada.
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby tamarakay » Sun May 05, 2013 9:25 am

I am envious of the people who have burner communities around them and can have bake sales and parties. No such luck here. I really struggled with the whole indigo go thing and still am actually. However, beyond the money raised publicly the indiegogo has been responsible for someone clear across the country to hear about us and direct donated 20 yards of silk. Good quality silk too. It is directly responsible for several people to hear about us and direct donate dyes and supplies they had sitting around being unused. For some of us indiegogo IS the bake sale.
When the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a hippie.

Mmmmmm I love the smell of Burning Man Token


http://www.dyewithdignity.com
User avatar
tamarakay
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:27 pm
Location: Texas
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity at BDC

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby aserendipity » Sun May 05, 2013 9:40 am

Yay !
love your answers Simon

and Indiegogo may replace my ancient genuine sparkleponie me-ness

going to bottle rock ?
aserendipity
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:34 pm

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby knowmad » Sun May 05, 2013 9:52 am

lemur wrote:even great and mighty things can sour the milk...for example.. the temple...

of course the reasons those fundraisers can sour the milk are different and varied.. (fuck you Larry, why dont you and your rich friends pay for that shit?)

either way. its generally turning to shit.

when is jerry lewis gonna start bugging our asses to donate?

who is this years poster child ?


Image

more importantly, who is gonna read this years tally ?


Having worked on a major project where one of "Lary's Rich Friends" was a major financial backer all I can say is looking for a hand out from these guys is; rude and endangering the burn ethos. telling them "Fuck you" is just about as rude as one could be. We worked hard on our project for months under the Desert Sun and never did we take their's or anyones contribution for granted. I worked especially hard at trying to save those gentlemen $ and to be a good steward of their gift. I cringe when I see responses like this.
............................................Image...........................................
Oh yeah, this year I was totally twerping out at the fence. ~Lonesombri
User avatar
knowmad
 
Posts: 3304
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:33 pm
Location: Puget Sound
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: 09-11 Specialist Clan
12 BWS BDV/DPB

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby lemur » Sun May 05, 2013 7:40 pm

that story seems more about how hard you worked and how good it felt to be part of a team and.. of course, to do a good job.

people can experience that feeling all sorts of ways, from fully funded by a patron to paid for with the crowd.. wanting to make the best use of the resources would be paramount for any sane person


it seems unsavory to me that some of the things the LLC board have decided are a part of the event (see: the business) are things theyd rather not pay for.. like how they decide burning man needs a temple.. so they decide what gets built and by whom.. also the CORE thing (see: regional advertising for the brand)) ..... both of these bring in TONS of people, well over 10,000, and, unlike the large scale sound camps.. these are things the LLC decided to do as part of the attractions at their event... it might be built, and designed by participants.. but it is still very much 'OFFICIAL BLACK ROCK CITY GARNISH' ..its not some individuals idea for an art project, its not a popular theme camp asking for cash. its their business and the attractions they put on the 'bill'


the way it looks to me, with the LLC and some of their pet (crowdfunded) projects is like if BONNAROO announced that BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN ..and some HIP new group were gonna be some of the attractions on the bill. but you know,.... they also run a fundraiser to pay bruces and the hip new groups expensive fees.... because you know, its for you!


rude to say 'fuck you larry'? sure! but this isnt exactly a childrens charity. its a business that has millions in assets and brings in over 20million a year...... larry is founder and executive director and chairman and senior staff on the Black Rock City LLC executive committe.. if i cant say 'FUCK YOU' to him, or the board, for doing what i see is wrong in the business ive supported for a long time who is left ?

sure!! participating in burning man is an empowering experience, it feels great and it makes you appreciate lots of things.... working in close with the organizations own projects certainly gives one an important perspective.. but at some point, we cant lose the perspective that our hard work, our art, and our efforts are all built on the back of the business that larry founded.. .. and with that, it seems to me that at some point, with some things, that larry isnt going far enough to ensure that the things hes decided are an important attraction to ticket buyers actually are there.

to me, the fact that people have to stress over getting 100% funding for the temple project is pretty damned disgustin and silly at this point, and i cringe when i see that larry and the board couldnt find the funds to pay the bands they booked for their own rock concert.



Image *
*pending crowdsourced fundraising round... (local wedding band will be booked if goal isnt achieved)
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby Ugly Dougly » Sun May 05, 2013 7:57 pm

We need to focus more on making more things from scratch, and not whipping out the credit card at Costco when the urge arises.
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
User avatar
Ugly Dougly
 
Posts: 16320
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Burning Since: 1996

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Mon May 06, 2013 11:21 am

an assistant of mine, back in the late 90's built a canoe and a kayak, from scratch...from scratch scratch...scratch scratch scratch....it was incredible.

it was his thesis project at RIT.



when you look around you, think of all the things you own that you have no idea how they were made....


go ahead, dig the ore, smelt it into metal, kill the deer, use the hide and the sinew, strip the tree, soak the bark, i can go on, but you get the picture.


of course, he had help, he had tools and resources at his disposal, so it was more of a reverse engineering project, as well as Artistic Piece (he was/is a sculptor) and also a study in process.

it blew my mind.



he was supposed to only apprentice for a few weeks, he ended up staying for 2 years, and we made some phenomenal furniture.


Dougly is right, once again....
breathe deep, the playa is the dust of your ancestors

A gift for the Playa
User avatar
Simon of the Playa
 
Posts: 13859
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Rochester, Nevada.
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby ygmir » Mon May 06, 2013 11:41 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:We need to focus more on making more things from scratch, and not whipping out the credit card at Costco when the urge arises.



this!!!!!
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25992
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby lemur » Mon May 06, 2013 12:25 pm

building shit with what you got layin around?!

Image

Image

Image


fuuuuck that. its burning man... lets buy some costco carports and some prefab shit.
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby 48_love » Mon May 06, 2013 1:09 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:de-commodify.

...

crowd-sourcing is a very nifty phenomena, and it provides talent with much needed funding, it is indeed a playing field leveler, which seems to be working for many.

...

i guess it's up to us to decide which is which by whether or not we open our wallets.

Caveat Emptor.


de-commodfication is a useful way of thinking about this, i can see. i went to a compost workshop, and i was so pleased that the guy emphasized not going out to buy a fancy container or compost starter, etc. sorta goes against the whole point, right? not that all art at the burn has to have some social agenda, but i personally find it inspiring to leverage existing resources creatively in expression.


i can see how things trend towards big out there, though. giant scale makes it just seem more unlikely and absurd. i can see how brainstorming next year's project leads artists there.

the field leveling aspect is something i really considered important to all this, too.

if it is all about ability to self-finance or utilize a few big patrons, what becomes of expression? do we really want art to run through the playa Medicis?

i think caveat emptor is the final and most valuable thought. in a voluntary community as big as this one, the last thing that anyone would seemingly want to see is a bunch of rule-making and attempts at behavior regulating.

that is a shit show no one would be happy with, I'd think.

vote with your feet ... and eyeballs. and yes, your wallets.

i do think i get the gripes better now, so thanks for the replies to my question folks!
User avatar
48_love
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:58 pm
Burning Since: 2013

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby Earthwalker » Mon May 06, 2013 2:27 pm

Here's my opinion...and in this case, it really is like an asshole. I'm not sure what that means, but the quote "opinions are like assholes; everybody has one" popped into my head.

Anyway, I think theme camps/mutant vehicles should be funded by those who get benefit from them AND have the desire and the ability to contribute. Meaning, if you're in a theme camp and the consensus response to "hey, we want to build this, but we don't quite have the funds...what do you think guys, should we organically finance this thing so we can have a kick ass theme camp??!!" is YES, let's (let US) do this!. Then by all means, contribute via Pay Pal to a designated person. Or start a kickstarter for the campmates, and any friends/family who want to support it. And I suppose if random people want to contribute too, then why not.

But, I have these few caveats:

-Starting a kickstarter in hopes of getting random people to fund your funplace, a funplace made (at least primarily) for the benefit of you and your campmates...is kind of lame IMO. I mean, if you ask for money and people send it, well good for you. No hate here. But I think the concept is silly.

-If you build a themecamp that is first and foremost for your own joy, but truly is built with the enjoyment of the entire community in mind, then I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for some help. Even saying "hey, we'd love to build this again, but we've hit some funding issues...care to help?" seems fine. BUT, trying to hold the community hostage like "hey, give us money or this year there will be no suspended gay orgy communist camp" isn't too cool.

So I'm not sure what my point is. But...hells yeah!!!
Please forgive me...this cubicle has stolen portions of my mind and my soul
User avatar
Earthwalker
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:16 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Trifucta

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon May 06, 2013 6:39 pm

Okay, okay, I read the footnotes. I couldn't find the "pay money to fix my carburetor" bit buried in the rest of that kickstarter, but looking for it gave me great appreciation for lemur's effort of going through baroque project descriptions to find those that are truly over the top. lemur--your kung fu is strong.

Although, I bet Peter Doty had a Santa suit already.
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37425
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:37 am

What is a "certain" hat :?:
User avatar
unjonharley
 
Posts: 8800
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Location: Salem Or.

Re: Shouldn't Burning Man be more like Bonnaroo ?

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:44 am

unjonharley wrote:What is a "certain" hat :?:

The ultimate in yes-man apparel.
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37425
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Previous

Return to Open Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tatonka and 4 guests