Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby 5280MeV » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:56 am

Elliot wrote::D
Good to see the Directed Distribution program became permanent, after being invented as an emergency measure last year.


I have to agree, as some things have to be dictated by basic common sense and compassion, not just stated principles.

Not everyone puts in hours of work every weekend to make some cool project or volunteer. I am talking about people who spend at least 100 hours beyond their basic survival needs and are contributing a large fraction of their personal discretionary income to make things or make things happen at the burn.

From my experience, 50,000 people simply are not doing this. This does not mean that there is a problem, that their contributions are not valued, I don't think one has to obsess over this year round in order to have a positive influence on the event. Let's also face it, a significant fraction people don't even give a shit at all and just want to party, see shows, or whatever.

I have seen this from both sides. While I did contribute to BM 2012, it was relatively minor - I helped a bit with a newspaper and worked with the DMV - but nothing all that consuming. If I didn't win the lottery, it would not crush me. For a regional burn, I collaborated on a good sized art sculpture made specifically for the burn, and I did spend on the order of 100+ hours working on it. It was THE focus of most of my personal free time for a good while. Not getting a ticket after doing that would have been miserable and depressing.

People who spend a significant fraction of their free time and income year round to literally BE the show at a big event should at least know that they get to go to that event.

This was the only thing that truly bothered me last year - watching people who had been making all this stuff wonder if they would be allowed to go. Of course people are going to be paranoid and irrational when they cannot even go to the show that they worked all year to put on.

-------------------

My criticism/suggestion:

Some of the distribution tickets are just resold and "wasted" anyway, so I think that it should be opened to new projects. Basically, if you can show (with pictures) that you are already working on something serious for the burn, or really spending a lot of your free time to make it happen, you should get a distribution ticket. As it stands, I don't think that it is fair to new projects that they have to wait until February to see if they have enough tickets to make it happen, and who wants to take a chance on a project anyway when one or more of your key collaborators doesn't get to come. Sure, everyone can say that they will find something in August, but who really wants to put their heart and soul into a thing without an invitation. This is what I imagine it feels like:

"Hey, I hear you are working on flame cannons for my birthday - that is really cool. Sorry I couldn't get you an invitation. Just hunt around the week before the party and I am sure that you will find one somehow."

This is the problem that directed tickets tries to fix. Currently it seems to help large established projects, but I think that it could also help smaller and newer efforts. Going for a directed ticket is establishing a relationship with the org, so if people abuse it just don't give them tickets the next year.


Note: In order to de-Puritanize and de-Calvinize my post, please replace every incidence of the word 'work' with 'play' in this post. I stand by the statement either way.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby jerroc » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:01 am

I am happy to see the BMorg has taken a step in the right direction. Thank you to all the people who had a hand in this years ticket plan. As a retired event promoter I understand the need and importance of pre sale and tired ticket programs. I'm sure it was a hard business decision to make. You have my respect.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby jkisha » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:06 am

Valid point.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby tatonka » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:01 pm

this pre registration will be on a web site , will it be overloaded with everyone trying to register at once?
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby Ratty » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:15 pm

Don't trry the first hour or even day. You have 4 days to register.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby junglesmacks » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:44 pm

If DD is done right.. as in truly passed to genuine core contributors, then yes.. it's a good thing. The problem to me lies in the how they''re liberally passed to camps with almost no oversight to the sub-distribution. Meaning.. many end up going not to core contributors but best friends, pals and random camp mates.. and sometimes to total randoms just for paying camp dues.

This doesn't "preserve the fabric of Burning Man" in the least. It just makes sure everybody's buddy who knows someone gets to go.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby trilobyte » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:04 pm

5280MeV - it's probably important to note a couple things about your criticism/suggestion. First, that the abuse/reselling of directed tickets in 2012 was pretty minimal. Camps and projects were not slathered with tickets aplenty to cover all their campmates, they were allocated numbers intended to cover just the essential or core participants in that project. Second, your suggestion (to open it up to new projects) doesn't actually do anything to reduce abuses. Opening it up simply dilutes the effectiveness of the program. There are already far more camps and projects "in the pool" and with a documented history of participation and execution of plans with Burning Man, adding more projects (that don't have any documented history of participation/performance) just spreads it thinner. If anything, opening it up only makes abuses more likely (people would put whatever they wanted or felt would increase their chances of success on applications, there are no consequences or risks). Third, it's also worth noting that last year's directed program helped more than just large established camps and projects. There was no minimum size, and the minimum number of years for consideration is one (so this year would be open to projects from the 2012 event). I kind of disagree with the birthday invite analogy, especially in the case of this year's event. The directed program is being run prior to the Individual Sale. This way, people should have a very clear idea by the time the Individual Sale happens on who's got tickets (last year, it took another 2+ months after the main sale for the directed program to shake out). It's impossible to say at this stage how many people who will want tickets will be able to get them (last year's circumstances were rather unusual, I'm not sure if we'll see the same surge in demand). And as with last year, those who don't get tickets in the main sale or directed program won't have to wait until August for the next opportunity to get a ticket, there will be STEP and a pretty healthy after-market during the interim.

tatonka - yes, pre-registration will be done on a web site. Similar to the way registration worked for last year's ticket sales. The servers handling that process will be up in the cloud (again), and should be able to handle the traffic (as they did last year).

junglesmacks - we have yet to see what the consequences are for the camps that abused the system. It may be a mistake to assume that those who sandbagged their numbers or used allocations to support dues-mill operations (and other bad behavior) even get the chance to participate in the directed program. They could find that they're not in the running, or that any potential allocations will be dramatically reduced.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby gaminwench » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:37 pm

Trilo...
How does the org determine misuse of DD tickets? Is there some sort of reporting system?
I've heard several different stories of (what seems to be) abuse; surely others have, too.
Is there some way for us to know whether or not the org is 'watching'?
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby trilobyte » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:55 pm

If your camp or project participated, assume that you're being watched ;)

With the 2012 directed tickets program, it was spelled out to project and camp leaders what the tickets were to be used for before the tickets were purchased. Details for the 2013 directed program are forthcoming, though I would guess that they'll do something very similar.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby fhaver » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:21 pm

is it feasible to sell tickets for 2014 Burning Man at this year's Burning Man? this would help weed out scalpers, and hopefully offer a discount to those willing to commit and put out the cash a year in advance.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby trilobyte » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:32 pm

Probably not, for a lot of reasons.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby burner von braun » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:06 pm

DD has the added advantage, as was touched on briefly somewhere around here, of beginning to provide BMorg a bit of additional leverage regarding LNT. A camp showing up red on last year's moop map would be less likely to receive as large an allotment of DD tickets next time. This provides additional incentive to be conscientious regarding the principle, and helps reinforce the mindset that LNT is something of value, to those who don't quite 'get it'.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby Rice » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:37 pm

fhaver wrote:is it feasible to sell tickets for 2014 Burning Man at this year's Burning Man? this would help weed out scalpers, and hopefully offer a discount to those willing to commit and put out the cash a year in advance.

Scalpers are not a extreme problem. less than 1/2 of 1% of the total available tickets for 2012 were canceled due to being a scalped ticket.

What is to stop someone who has a physical 2014 ticket (purchased at the 2013) burn from scalping it?? - not a realistic solution IMHO
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:40 pm

fhaver wrote:is it feasible to sell tickets for 2014 Burning Man at this year's Burning Man? this would help weed out scalpers, and hopefully offer a discount to those willing to commit and put out the cash a year in advance.

This was one of the minor, yet repeated, suggestions last year. I suspect it would be a nightmare.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby 9ah » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:47 pm

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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby 9ah » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:52 pm

Frogbird... There is no mention of LARGE theme camps in the direct distribution memo.... Let's not further spread the misinformation. :D
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby Simon of the Playa » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:54 pm

you people just dont get it, do you...

it's not the price...it's the VALUE....
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby Frizzboom » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:56 pm

This is really educational in a homeostatic kind of way. Thanks you all, it makes me appreciate all the behind the scenes work even more.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby BBadger » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:02 pm

OH HAY HOW ABOUT A SEASON--er century--PASS?! That'll weed out the scalpers! Uh huh!
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby Ratty » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:50 pm

I can't remember what the new sig said. I'll know in a sec.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby maladroit » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:40 pm

fhaver wrote:yet it would be nice if ticket sales at Burning Man for the next year could be worked out, for a lot of reasons.


I don't see how it would fix anything, and it would certainly cause great inconvenience for many people. I don't think it's ever been suggested as more than a joke.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby fhaver » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:48 pm

since Burning Man has gone from having everyone mailing in registrations to online, most if not all of the first-come first-served registrations have started at about 1:00 pm EST, this year 3:00 pm EST, in the middle of the week. Why can't registrations ever be given a turn to start in the evening or on a weekend? Current timing puts many of us who work standard business hours in the position of having to take an unknown chunk of time off work or sneaking in registration while we're supposed to be doing our jobs (and hoping we get through the queue before the office closes!).
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby International Incident » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:58 pm

fhaver wrote:since Burning Man has gone from having everyone mailing in registrations to online, most if not all of the first-come first-served registrations have started at about 1:00 pm EST, this year 3:00 pm EST, in the middle of the week. Why can't registrations ever be given a turn to start in the evening or on a weekend? Current timing puts many of us who work standard business hours in the position of having to take an unknown chunk of time off work or sneaking in registration while we're supposed to be doing our jobs (and hoping we get through the queue before the office closes!).



You are a bit of a negative nelly aren't you?

The time is always going to be not perfect for someone. Loads of people have to rely on internet connections during office hours, would you have those people disadvantaged? What about the IT people? Surely it would be best if the peak load came when there were people (possibly outside providers) available to provide support. Most "big" events go on-sale during standard office hours - why should this one be any different?
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby mdmf007 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:28 pm

How does BM know if DD is being abused and tickets resold? Tickets all have bar codes and can be tracked back to the original hand. I know of tickets being offered for sale that were allocated to BM departments as 'Gift" tickets for the many hours some volunteers put in. When these tickets end up in resales and the number is verified a WTF? phone call can be made.

So I suspect that when tickets appear on resale sites with the code available for a purchaser to verify that BMAn can simply track it. BMAN is awesome with technology and database admin. In a nutshell if a trend appears of a camp selling off their DD tickets it would be questioned. Fool me once...

Of course, I made some assumptions here about hypothetical processes, but the tech is all in place already.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby BBadger » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:35 pm

fhaver wrote:since Burning Man has gone from having everyone mailing in registrations to online, most if not all of the first-come first-served registrations have started at about 1:00 pm EST, this year 3:00 pm EST, in the middle of the week. Why can't registrations ever be given a turn to start in the evening or on a weekend? Current timing puts many of us who work standard business hours in the position of having to take an unknown chunk of time off work or sneaking in registration while we're supposed to be doing our jobs (and hoping we get through the queue before the office closes!).


The registration doesn't determine the first-come-first-served. Only the purchase on Feb 13th.

Regardless, all years that had first-come-first-served (every year up until BM 2012) never had sell-outs in any time-frame that business hours occurred. Oh sure, you maybe weren't able to be one of the lucky people who clicked in the first 5 minutes of the site opening up to get those tier discounts, but you literally had months after to buy tickets after that point -- usually right up until the event opened.

Now there are no tiers, no lottery, higher ticket prices, more tickets (+5000 over last year's general sale), and no probability-driven ticket sale gaming. Will it sell out? Maybe, but I doubt it'll be before you get a chance to buy one when you get home. Hell, even if you miss out you can get one through STEP or the OMG sale. Everybody who signed up for a ticket through STEP got a ticket last year-- even before the ticket market bottomed out in the last month.

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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby 9ah » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:08 am

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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby trilobyte » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:30 am

fhaver - if the considerable logistical hurdles could all be overcome (I'm not saying they can, they're really big hurdles), the group that would benefit most from selling tickets to the next year's event *at* the event would be the monied burners with copious amounts of disposable income. Most burners are up to their eyeballs in debt or pushing their personal financial limits just to get to the playa and home again safely. Personally I think that's a bad idea, and am kind of glad it's so unfeasible. BTW, it has been made as a serious suggestion in the past by several people. As for the timing of the onsale, sorry no they won't be moved to an evening or weekend. As BBadger mentioned though, the mid-day starts/stops for registration don't matter - you can register at any time of day during the 4 day window and it will have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on your place in the queue for when tickets go on sale.

BBadger - very good point. Last year's demand spike was such an anomaly and had such unique circumstances that I don't know whether or not that's an indicator that demand will be that crazy out of the gate this year. In 2011 it appeared to take 24 hours to sell 30K tickets, and 40K tickets were gone by the end of January (they went on sale on the 19th). The remaining tickets sold at a relative trickle, with a brief spike at the very end before the event sold out on 24th of July. As you point out, ticket prices for nearly half of participants will be higher this year than last year. And don't forget that 10K tickets will have been sold to targeted camps/groups' core members (who would have been a part of that first-day demand), that should hopefully take some pressure off.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby fhaver » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:31 am

International Incident wrote:
fhaver wrote:since Burning Man has gone from having everyone mailing in registrations to online, most if not all of the first-come first-served registrations have started at about 1:00 pm EST, this year 3:00 pm EST, in the middle of the week. Why can't registrations ever be given a turn to start in the evening or on a weekend? Current timing puts many of us who work standard business hours in the position of having to take an unknown chunk of time off work or sneaking in registration while we're supposed to be doing our jobs (and hoping we get through the queue before the office closes!).



You are a bit of a negative nelly aren't you?

The time is always going to be not perfect for someone. Loads of people have to rely on internet connections during office hours, would you have those people disadvantaged? What about the IT people? Surely it would be best if the peak load came when there were people (possibly outside providers) available to provide support. Most "big" events go on-sale during standard office hours - why should this one be any different?


i really don't think it's kind to be called a "negative nelly" for offering a suggestion that maybe once in a while, ticket sales sometimes start outside of hours when many of us probably are scheduled to be at work. I haven't researched when most "big" events go on-sale, but I do know that ticket sales for this year's Glastonbury - more than double the attendance of Burning Man - went on sale Sunday, October 7 at 9:00 am in England which was 4:00 am in my time zone. guess i'll stop offering anymore ticketing suggestions here 'cause they only get shot down.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby trilobyte » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:55 am

fhaver - you may want to consider that this isn't the first year or first time any of those suggestions have been made. ;)

Message boards can be wonderful things - they allow you to have lively discussions with like-minded individuals who may or may not agree with you. While I wouldn't describe you as a negative nelly myself, it does stand out that your posts in the last year are largely just suggestions/requests to change the system. If you'd like people to think differently of you, participate.

Most events (big and small) go on sale during weekday business hours (in the local timezone to where the event will be held). Typically only a handful of the bigger events go on sale on a weekend, and even then with mixed results. Take Glastonbury, for example - this year they had crippling technical glitches that led to tens of thousands of registered users not getting emails with reminders/links until after tickets had sold out, and horrible transaction server issues (frezes and kickouts) that affected countless users over a 2ish hour period of time.
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Re: Burning Man 2013 Tickets Info

Postby maladroit » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:12 am

Voice of reason incoming:

If you can't swing an hour or two to try to get registered, how can you get 10 days off in August?

And for John Frum's sake, these are REGISTRATIONS, not actual tickets. You'll have four days to figure it out, and they will allow more registrations than allocated tickets. Focus your chi, wait until the 8th and whatever moment in the day is most in harmony with your unique snowflake feng shui.
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