Shade structure question on pop ups modified

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Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby winebuff » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:10 am

This has probably been brought up before but pls bear with me, 2nd trip to BM for me :D
Is there any way to reinforce with pvc or something else the 10 x 10 pop up shade structures you buy in the store? I have 2 and trying to figure out if I can ziptie rebar or pvc to 2 of them to reinforce then tie down with rebar and sand bags. Dumb idea or will that work? thx!!!!
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Bob » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:35 am

Some easy-up type awnings are worse than others, but they're all aviation hazards in a strong wind & prone to getting bent out of shape.

Google "conduit tarp canopies". Guy it.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby some seeing eye » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:23 pm

The problem you are facing is wind. The force of wind on a sail, like the canopy cover or tarp, in pounds = .00256 x (wind speed in miles/hr) squared. The playa design wind speed is 80 miles/hr - same as used by local building code. So a 10x10 area if the wind can get under it generates a over 1600 pounds of force. Shade cloth helps, but it catches wind too, so the frame has to be able to resist the force. For instance I have a 25x25 shade cloth structure and have had wind challenges with it. You can get into higher level structural analysis by making the structure bendable - like PVC monkey huts, or a little elastic with bungie balls and bungie tiedowns. Pop ups can survive by chance and circumstance, but they are not designed to do so and you really don't want someone to be injured by yours flying.

I think there is a thread about blowdown hazards with photos. Commenter Bob above has a whole website devoted to wind resistant structures and a lot of experience building them.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby winebuff » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:39 pm

I appreciate the input. I do have a huge tarp so may see about doing some type of frame with conduit instead. It will be just 2 women, old and crochety but I know there are plenty of nice burners to help if need be. Plus I will have vodka waiting, lol
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby TomServo » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:03 pm

They can be reinforced with pvc...especially a ladder shaped gizmo on the side cross pieces. Or.. just guy the shit out of it and think of art project ideas for it next year.

Then again...its hit and miss. You could be camped, surrounded by RVs and it'd be fine! Or no real winds...
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby maladroit » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:53 pm

winebuff wrote:It will be just 2 women, old and crochety but I know there are plenty of nice burners to help if need be.


While this is probably true, it's still a good idea to make a plan that doesn't depend on other people. If you believe that people will rush to help lash down your canopy during a wind storm, please consider that they might be busy lashing down their own structures....
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby winebuff » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:55 pm

maladroit wrote:
winebuff wrote:It will be just 2 women, old and crochety but I know there are plenty of nice burners to help if need be.


While this is probably true, it's still a good idea to make a plan that doesn't depend on other people. If you believe that people will rush to help lash down your canopy during a wind storm, please consider that they might be busy lashing down their own structures....



totally true. I want it to be low maintenance for both of us to be able to handle it.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby teardropper » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:48 pm

Have seen 'em roll like tumbleweeds, one from our camp a couple years ago. When we got it back we zip-tied PVC to it profusely and dropped to about 4'. Also staked it and guyed it. Don't remember if it was those things or maybe no more big wind that allowed it to survive the week. Haven't had another in camp since. I would say to guy them, at least to keep them from from turning into blowing hazards.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby winebuff » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:01 pm

teardropper wrote:Have seen 'em roll like tumbleweeds, one from our camp a couple years ago. When we got it back we zip-tied PVC to it profusely and dropped to about 4'. Also staked it and guyed it. Don't remember if it was those things or maybe no more big wind that allowed it to survive the week. Haven't had another in camp since. I would say to guy them, at least to keep them from from turning into blowing hazards.



What does it mean to guy them? I was hoping sandbags and reinforced pvc would help them since I already have 2 and that is manageable for me. Have to rethink that, thx
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:22 pm

"To guy" is to tie it down--think "guy wires".
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby teardropper » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:41 pm

Oh Fishy, you interpret us so well...

Thank you.

And Hi, Winebuff..
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Bob » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:16 pm

winebuff wrote:
teardropper wrote:Have seen 'em roll like tumbleweeds, one from our camp a couple years ago. When we got it back we zip-tied PVC to it profusely and dropped to about 4'. Also staked it and guyed it. Don't remember if it was those things or maybe no more big wind that allowed it to survive the week. Haven't had another in camp since. I would say to guy them, at least to keep them from from turning into blowing hazards.



What does it mean to guy them? I was hoping sandbags and reinforced pvc would help them since I already have 2 and that is manageable for me. Have to rethink that, thx


If you refuse to figure this out, please stay the fuck home, Winebuff.

PVC is a liability, btw.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Savannah » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:47 pm

My campmate and I managed a monkey hut in 2009. It did fine in the wind. The materials cost near the same as a pop-up, but was considerably stronger. We did a test run in a friend's backyard. (Or only prior experience with our own shade structure was hexagonal camping shade that made it through the 2008 storms one year prior, but really wouldn't have survived another year and got pretty beaten.) The monkey hut is much better.

http://www.chromatest.net/Lovemonkey/

My current shade is square steel tubing (straight, joined by slightly bigger sleeves and corner pieces, not hinged or easily collapsible like an EZ up) and shade cloth; 7 feet high and absolutely flat on top so that the shade cloth simply does not catch the wind. The shade is tied down at many points via rebar. (A friend made it). I block the south end with a vehicle, typically, but not always.

Line up any assistance you need before you get to the playa. I saw an entire carport go cartwheeling down the playa this year, with poor fools running after it. :shock: Could've really hurt someone.

Either make it something you can do yourself, or pre-bribe specific friends!
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Chowski » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:24 pm

I did a free-standing ez-up this year, staked at each corner with tall (3-foot?) stakes (not even guy-lined) and zip-tied like crazy. I replaced the standard solid roof with a camo-netting which allowed the wind to move freely without catching like an umbrella. Further, I wrapped the largest joints with celophane (to prevent tape gunk) then taped the hell out of those joints. I positioned it away from the wind against my car, and never had any problems whatsoever. Not even a little shaking. I was super concerned by all the ranting I had read on here, but don;t worry. If you've got it staked, and replace the top with netting, you'll be justfine.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby maladroit » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:02 pm

There were maybe one or two significant gusts this year, and they weren't long enough to do much.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby teardropper » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:15 pm

"Who knows what tomorrow may bring..."
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby maladroit » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:50 pm

teardropper wrote:"Who knows what tomorrow may bring..."


Agreed, which is why I don't consider this year to be an accurate test of my playa gear. My tent and hut had 2' to 3' stakes (1/2" rebar with washers welded on top) pounded flush, which caused no end of cursing and calling me insane when someone once tried to help me pull some up. I might cut off 6"....
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Savannah » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:43 pm

maladroit wrote:
teardropper wrote:"Who knows what tomorrow may bring..."


Agreed, which is why I don't consider this year to be an accurate test of my playa gear. My tent and hut had 2' to 3' stakes (1/2" rebar with washers welded on top) pounded flush, which caused no end of cursing and calling me insane when someone once tried to help me pull some up. I might cut off 6"....


You're right! 2012 was no test at ALL. Seriously.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby BBadger » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:56 pm

I was disappointed with 2012's weather. All it did was make the nights a dusty soup that encouraged me to go to sleep early. During the day sure there were some dust clouds but nothing apocalyptic about it. I didn't see any airborne EZ-ups, or condition alphas. Hell, it wasn't even that hot. I saw more catastrophic weather at Element 11.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby trilobyte » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:44 am

2012 seemed to ba apocalyptic for those who either just weren't thinking, or who thought 2011 is what playa weather was all about. For veterans it brought a smile to the face, made is feel nostalgic for the harder years. Yes, there was a lot of dust, but no the weather wasn't really that extreme (at least once the gates opened up).
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby AntiM » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:37 am

Winebuff, do look into a monkeyhut. Simple to do and very sturdy.

BBadger wrote:I was disappointed with 2012's weather. All it did was make the nights a dusty soup that encouraged me to go to sleep early. During the day sure there were some dust clouds but nothing apocalyptic about it. I didn't see any airborne EZ-ups, or condition alphas. Hell, it wasn't even that hot. I saw more catastrophic weather at Element 11.


E-11 was mean this last year. We'd used our fair weather set up and regretted it as we stood in the rain hanging onto our carport in those high gusts. Full on B-Man set up or nothing on the salt marsh next time. Oddly, our EZ-up frame was in Center Camp for the NoCostco, no canopy, took a tumble and tweaked a joint but still folded up, and miraculously avoided being smashed flat when the big saucer roof came down. The winds out there killed a new Coleman tent one year. Those three days are actually tougher on our set up than Burning Man had been.

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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Bexx » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:00 am

On Sunday morning this year.. I was first up in my camp.. Lucky for my friends who where in hexayurts cus I had to catch a fucking tumbleweed of a Costco carport from the camp next to us. It came rolling right in their direction. I screamed like a maniac and hunched down as I grabbed one of the legs.

It just all depends on how you set things up. I've seen 10x10s with the legs stuffed in PVC and rebared to hell n gone, last the week.. Just give yourself a good wind break!
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby winebuff » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:26 am

Thx everyone, I appreciate the advice. I will play with it over the winter. Love u guys! :D
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Frizzboom » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:23 pm

Thanks to the resources on this board I built a Monkey Hut today, I was going to buy a shelterlogic carport, but by combining a couple of designs from here I came up with a 12'X30' awesome space. I needed temp storage space during a remodel and this made sense. I used the basic design from http://www.chromatest.net/Lovemonkey/ but decided to go with soft joints on the top rib, I used strips of rubber to tightly bind the joints. That gave me some flexibility on the ribs. at the bottom I got 1 1/4" couplings that float over the one inch ribs and provides a solid base to the sides and an easy template for rebar poundin.


How do you post photos?
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Savannah » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:43 pm

I can see you fussing around with photos Frizzboom; mid-message you changed from Picasa to Flickr! :)

Make sure that you've enabled your BBCode on this site first, in your profile under "Board Preferences", and "Edit Posting Defaults".

Flickr's what I use. Upload a photo, select "Share" above a specific photo and copy/paste the BBCode, not the HTML.

Then hit "Preview" before posting instead of "Submit", so you can see if it's working. :)
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Frizzboom » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:11 pm

OK PICS! Thanks Savanah, you rock. Used HTML not bbcode by mistake.
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IMG_1971 by Mathreett, on Flickr

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IMG_1973 by Mathreett, on Flickr

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IMG_1968 by Mathreett, on Flickr
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Bexx » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:19 pm

Nice job!!! Monkey Huts Rule!!!
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby winebuff » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:06 am

Hi teardropper :D
I see you are in Oregon. are u goin gto BM next year? Part of the teardrop group? Rovt here...

teardropper wrote:Oh Fishy, you interpret us so well...

Thank you.

And Hi, Winebuff..
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby Elorrum » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:42 am

I don't see many comments about the Kelty large shade. 2007, 2008 edge of town, no windbreak. bent but snapped back, fixed some collars on the pole sections and was good to go. I put a tall chair in the windward corner in 2008, and sat out the Saturday storm there.
storage the rest of the year is TEENSY smaller than the bagged tent. not a lot over $100. The newer version has more guy out points. PITA to keep ducking to get in and out, which is why I've gone with the Northpole tipi since. I use this for regular camping and festivals still.
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Re: Shade structure question on pop ups modified

Postby teardropper » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:59 pm

10-4 on the North Pole. Had mine 3 years - granted, not kick-ass bad years, but it does seem to be stable on the playa. I use 18", 90* bent-on-top rebar. Have had it out for other things in BRD, but BM seems to have the potential for the most wind. Used it out there in May, June & July and BM has the worst weather, as far as wind. Hmm, just realized that. But, might be luck of the draw...
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