How safe is burning man?

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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby ygmir » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:03 am

I think shared stories, are maybe the best for instruction and convincing arguments. Lets folks know what's "real"....
what can happen, and what can be done.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby AntiM » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:04 am

When I was in the Navy, I was stationed at Fort Gordon for a while for school. There was a large drill field, huge open grassy area surrounded by trees. They type of place that even though it is open and seemingly visible, you're invisible to the buildings because of distance and how the structures are screened by the vegetation. It was off limits after dark, there had been a number of rapes and assaults that year.
I was cutting across it at dusk, headed back to the barracks, in civilian clothes. I was hustling, it was getting dark. There were shortcut footpaths worn in the grass, so I was taking a diagonal. A man came up behind me, I guess he'd been in the trees to my right, angling to cross my path, but was moving much faster. He didn't pass me, but slowed and asked if I knew it was dangerous to be out on the drill field after dark. Yes, of course I knew. He didn't move along or ask me if I wanted an escort. He paced me. My inner alarm system went on high alert. He asked me what I would do if attacked and raped by someone out there. He specifically said "rape". I stopped in my tracks, looked him square in the eye and calmly said, "I'd kill him with my bare hands. I'd tear his throat out". The guy stammered a bit, oh okay, and took off like a shot.
It wasn't a normal encounter. He didn't act "properly". Maybe he was simply clueless, but I had a bad feeling, still do.
What makes this so memorable to me is it marks the first time I threatened a man, rather than being meek and easy-going. Prior to that moment, I'd been the go with the flow gal. Suddenly I was the kick ass woman.
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I was age 24 or so, about the age of many women attending B-Man for the first time. Many have not had the opportunity or need to be forceful, to be loud, to cry for assistance. That is why I think other women relating experiences may be of use, and why role playing would boost confidence in taking action if needed.

For the record, I had defended myself before, but not verbally, not pre-assault. Two different mindsets and reactions.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby wh..sh » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:22 am

Zhust wrote:
Smenkare wrote:And his excuse was "I was drunk last night."


In response, perhaps getting together with a few other women in the camp, snapping a pair of poultry shears and saying, "sometimes when I get drunk, I snip rapists balls off."

Not to forget, I think most people act 30% more drunk than they actually are...
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:32 am

wh..sh wrote:Not to forget, I think most people act 30% more drunk than they actually are...

Wow. I like this.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Runs; With Scissors » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:03 pm

I do not agree with what many people are saying here -

First, kicking a person out of your camp who is a problem and targets someone in your camp doesn't fix the problem. They can come right back again. If someone is a serious threat, you need them GONE, and you need to control them with securities or some sort of watch until then. You were right in not coming back to your tent right off. You were vulnerable there. You should have involved more people in your camp. There's the legal route of dealing with things, i.e., tell the BLM Rangers, and the organization ways, eg, our own rangers. If you felt seriously threatened, you could have gone home too - or moved your tent. I've been in that situation before, and moving myself was the safest, least drama (for me) option.

Second, sleeping with a hammer is better than nothing.

Third, You can't always deal with an irrational person who is irrational because they are drunk. ...Especially not as a person who is a target of that person. Some drunk men will listen & respect what other men will say, some will only listen to a woman, some will not listen to anyone. If talking doesn't get you anywhere, first, get back-up, get someone else to help. Then, if you still don't get anywhere, don't just leave them to make trouble. Get a ranger involved or make them go to bed / leave your camp through some other means. Your camp mates may have had a way to cut off their drinking, and if he was a member of your camp, he probably had someone who could have reasoned with him or gotten him out of there before he got himself in more trouble.

This may or may not be helpful - when I was in my mid-twenties, I worked as a bouncer on the side for fun. We were a huge crew and had great parties where a number of us would drink a lot and get rowdy. People who were too rowdy and wouldn't simmer down, and started picking fights generally became handcuffed by several really big dudes. In general, those people would stay handcuffed until we could talk about it in the morning. It happened to me once and then I made sure to be good in the future.

The advice to act big and counter attack is pretty solid.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Smenkare » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:47 pm

I'm appreciative of the advice guys, it helps me see things from other perspectives. And the stories too (Thanks AntiM, Runs With Scissors and everyone else who's been in/witnessed similar situations and contributed)

This isn't something I expected so I wasn't prepared for it. Next year though, I like the idea of getting people together and doing some roll playing about how to deal with these situations/people. I also think it would be very HELPFUL to have a sit down or an email go out to the camp list before hand detailing what can be done if there's a problem, and what behavior will not be tolerated and be grounds for being removed from camp. And I'll make that suggestion to the camp organizers since I don't imagine they'd want to have this guy or someone like him back again if it means making for bad will among the women in camp.

Burning man is a very socially inclusive place. Radical Inclusion is part of the deal. So that means even people who might qualify as creepers and sex offenders get to be burners. OK, but what does that mean for the rest of us? We do a lot of stuff here we can't do at home (Like walk down the street naked and get a bdsm spanking on the esplanade or party really hard with a bunch of people we don't know). Is there like a "Social and Sexual Safety Survival Guide?" for how to do those things safely and not make yourself prey to some skeezy dude?
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby wh..sh » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:07 am

Smenkare wrote:Burning man is a very socially inclusive place. Radical Inclusion is part of the deal. So that means even people who might qualify as creepers and sex offenders get to be burners.

Oh no, no, no, no! This is not how interpret "radical inclusion".
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:27 am

Smenkare might be talking about creeps who don't cross that threshhold. Of course, that may not qualify as a creep in your view. I'm not going to say that creep is in the eye of the beholder, but nonetheless, there is probably a range of where we draw our lines.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Lord Of Ruin » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:16 pm

Please don't misunderstand this post as defending the guy in any way.

But as a guy, it's really awful to have a misunderstand paint you with a brush you might not have deserved. Here's how I'd like it handled if I were the proposed creeper, but perhaps wasn't really.

Woman in question that feels like I may have gone over the line goes to someone in a position of authority. Camp organizer, Ranger, etc. CO would be my choice.

Woman in question asks CO to meet in private. Explains situation and her hesitance to speak up. CO decides if they want more than one organizer to attend meeting.

CO, offendee and creeper meet in private. Offendee discusses her concerns, creeper gives his sad tale of drunken woe, etc. Offendee says, with the support of CO, in very clear terms what she does not want/welcome. CO makes sure all parties understand.

If offendee or others then report any other behavior, creeper is asked to leave camp. If he won't, tell creeper you're calling Rangers/BLM and offendee will file a report if he doesn't find new digs.

Offendee still has the chance to escalate/use loud voice if creeper does something, but this also allows for someone going to BM and having alcohol cloud their understanding of the somewhat more flexible mores that appear to be in evidence there. No definately means no, but it IS quite possible to misunderstand the sexualized culture of BM, especially to someone not used to such counterculture events. I am reminded of this by the reactions of friends when I bring them as my guest to other "BM-esque" events.

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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Smenkare » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:40 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Smenkare might be talking about creeps who don't cross that threshhold. Of course, that may not qualify as a creep in your view. I'm not going to say that creep is in the eye of the beholder, but nonetheless, there is probably a range of where we draw our lines.


What I mean is, there are a lot of people on the playa who come from different backgrounds.

One woman's creeper is another woman's boyfriend/husband. There are guys at the burn who come off creepy. Once you get to know them, you don't feel creeped out at all. It's just sometimes when a big sweaty naked guy wants to give me a hug with his doodle half cocked, I'm a little put off at first. Does that mean he's a creep guy overall? No.
Other times, there are guys that seem polite and nice, even the sort of person you might consider to be a friend...but as you get to know them better, they start to creep you out. They might not cross all the way over the line, but they're the kind of people you have to watch yourself around.

Lord Of Ruin wrote:Please don't misunderstand this post as defending the guy in any way.

But as a guy, it's really awful to have a misunderstand paint you with a brush you might not have deserved. Here's how I'd like it handled if I were the proposed creeper, but perhaps wasn't really.

Woman in question that feels like I may have gone over the line goes to someone in a position of authority. Camp organizer, Ranger, etc. CO would be my choice.

Woman in question asks CO to meet in private. Explains situation and her hesitance to speak up. CO decides if they want more than one organizer to attend meeting.

CO, offendee and creeper meet in private. Offendee discusses her concerns, creeper gives his sad tale of drunken woe, etc. Offendee says, with the support of CO, in very clear terms what she does not want/welcome. CO makes sure all parties understand.

If offendee or others then report any other behavior, creeper is asked to leave camp. If he won't, tell creeper you're calling Rangers/BLM and offendee will file a report if he doesn't find new digs.

Offendee still has the chance to escalate/use loud voice if creeper does something, but this also allows for someone going to BM and having alcohol cloud their understanding of the somewhat more flexible mores that appear to be in evidence there. No definately means no, but it IS quite possible to misunderstand the sexualized culture of BM, especially to someone not used to such counterculture events. I am reminded of this by the reactions of friends when I bring them as my guest to other "BM-esque" events.

LoR


Dear LoR,

A guy might not think he's being creepy and the man in question in my camp was polite and reasonably in control of himself when he was sober. I can't order someone to stop drinking--even if they get out of control when they do--because it's their life. What I can do is approach that person when they're sober and tell them, "Hey, what you did last night hurt me, and this is why." What bothers me is that when we--his "offendees" approached him about the issue, he blew us off and dismissed us as it being a "misunderstanding." Clearly me and the other two women who he groped and slobbered over that night are social dyslexics because we misunderstood him, he must have just been an overly friendly drunk? I appreciate that you want to protect him from us hysterical women folk, but we're not all a bunch of over-reactive dithering sparkle ponies and we didn't take him out into the street, kick him in his nuts and take turns beating him with fry pans and rolling pins to get our honor back. The whole exchange was pretty civilized, at least on our end. Furthermore the perpetrator doesn't get to select "his preferred form of remediation," we talked to him in a polite and private manner away from the main part of camp. It should have ended there. It didn't. We had to get the CO involved and that caused some drama because the offender didn't think he'd done anything wrong. If the "offender" respected us as human beings in the first place, things wouldn't have escalated that night. If he was a responsible man, he would have apologized the next morning and not blamed it on the booze which he chose to drink. If he had an ounce of sense, he would have dialed back the boozing for the rest of the week. He didn't.
I didn't go to the meeting with the CO because the CO didn't witness it. As far as he was concerned, it was a He said She said and She said and She said. I'd aired my bit and I wasn't going to let it ruin my burn. I didn't spend another night alone in my tent, I'd go stay with a friend in another camp. I did what I felt was necessary to make myself feel safe again, even if it was arming myself when I was alone in my own tent.

Honestly, that kind of suggestion that you make there, LoR, steams me even though I am sure you mean well. This guy does not deserve your defense. It's men like him that have ruined it for men like you, because he uses it as a shield. The "I was drunk" excuse to justify one's claim of "misunderstanding" the vocal and non verbal communications of "NO". When you have three women telling you "No" and "Leave me alone" and then pushing you away, it means "Your sexual advances are not welcome here," it's a stretch to claim a misunderstanding then when you grab one or more of those women and pull them back harder and try to force them down on your lap. If a guy doesn't listen to me when I say "NO" and he grabs me, the next thing he gets is a shove or other removal of his hands from me, if that doesn't work, I leave the party/situation before I have to result to violence. That's where things were headed that night and I did not choose/want that. And to be honest, his state of drunkeness nullified his size and strength advantage. And yes, I was making those calculations in my my 100% sober head as I left camp for the Esplanade just in case he decided to follow me.

What my camp was lacking was a public service announcement in the emails that went out for arranging the burn. The CO, bless him for all he does, is probably planning do one next year even without prompting from me or the other two women just because of the drama fest that erupted around this dude. I don't want to radically exclude anyone, but I know this guy will probably come back to the burn again, and we don't have any way of notifying the future camp he stays with that THIS GUY IS A SKETCHY PREDATORY DUDE. That steams me, because someday he's going to go too far and violate someone.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:52 pm

Smenkare wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:Smenkare might be talking about creeps who don't cross that threshhold. Of course, that may not qualify as a creep in your view. I'm not going to say that creep is in the eye of the beholder, but nonetheless, there is probably a range of where we draw our lines.


What I mean is, there are a lot of people on the playa who come from different backgrounds.

One woman's creeper is another woman's boyfriend/husband. There are guys at the burn who come off creepy. Once you get to know them, you don't feel creeped out at all. It's just sometimes when a big sweaty naked guy wants to give me a hug with his doodle half cocked, I'm a little put off at first. Does that mean he's a creep guy overall? No.
Other times, there are guys that seem polite and nice, even the sort of person you might consider to be a friend...but as you get to know them better, they start to creep you out. They might not cross all the way over the line, but they're the kind of people you have to watch yourself around.

I was talking to wh..sh, and the audience in general, trying to express what you just said.

I think you're doing really well. I'm assuming that it's hard to tell this stuff to the whole damn internet... You're speaking clearly and with certitude, not panic.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Lord Of Ruin » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:54 am

Smenkare wrote:
Dear LoR,

SNIP-- that when we--his "offendees" approached him about the issue, he blew us off and dismissed us as it being a "misunderstanding." Uh...this is exactly what I proposed for you to do.

SNIP "I appreciate that you want to protect him from us hysterical women folk, but we're not all a bunch of over-reactive dithering sparkle ponies and we didn't take him out into the street, kick him in his nuts and take turns beating him with fry pans and rolling pins to get our honor back." Never said or intimated such a thing. Sounds like you've got a bit of reactionary chip on your shoulder there."

SNIP "... we talked to him in a polite and private manner away from the main part of camp. It should have ended there. It didn't. ..." Sorta what I recommended, but I recommended it happen in conjunction with the following thing.

SNIP " We had to get the CO involved and that caused some drama because the offender didn't think he'd done anything wrong. If the "offender" respected us as human beings in the first place, things wouldn't have escalated that night. If he was a responsible man, he would have apologized the next morning and not blamed it on the booze which he chose to drink. If he had an ounce of sense, he would have dialed back the boozing for the rest of the week. He didn't." If he physically touched you, that's assault. You were free to file a complaint with LEO. I suspect if three of you had such a complaint, LEO might have done more than file a report. But...if he just "made you feel creepy?" Hell, half the fuckin' people at Burning Man "make me feel creepy." Not afraid of being raped creepy, mind you.

SNIP "I didn't go to the meeting with the CO because the CO didn't witness it. As far as he was concerned, it was a He said She said and She said and She said." Your CO is an asshat. A camp is a subculture...a micro-community if you will. IF it doesn't choose to enforce it's own rules, I'd say fuck it and leave. Looks like you did that.

SNIP "Honestly, that kind of suggestion that you make there, LoR, steams me even though I am sure you mean well. This guy does not deserve your defense. It's men like him that have ruined it for men like you, because he uses it as a shield. The "I was drunk" excuse to justify one's claim of "misunderstanding" the vocal and non verbal communications of "NO". When you have three women telling you "No" and "Leave me alone" and then pushing you away, it means "Your sexual advances are not welcome here," it's a stretch to claim a misunderstanding then when you grab one or more of those women and pull them back harder and try to force them down on your lap. If a guy doesn't listen to me when I say "NO" and he grabs me, the next thing he gets is a shove or other removal of his hands from me," Again, this is assault. If you felt that it wasn't being effective saying no, why didn't you find a Ranger and escalate it? You instead felt "better" (being facetious here of course) instead about sleeping with a hammer by your bed?

SNIP "if that doesn't work, I leave the party/situation before I have to result to violence. That's where things were headed that night and I did not choose/want that. And to be honest, his state of drunkeness nullified his size and strength advantage." WHERE WERE THE RANGERS OR LAW ENFORCEMENT? You're walking around actually calculating methods of evasion or defense? Jeez.

SNIP "What my camp was lacking was a public service announcement in the emails that went out for arranging the burn." I suspect the offender wouldn't have been moved by this. The fact is, just like in regular bars back home, people judge social situations in different ways. Throw alcohol into that mix and it gets similarly skewed. Good example? Take 50 average guys and liquor them up at a typical party. Probably none of them will do anything "creepish." Take the same 50 guys, liquor them up and take them to a strip bar, especially in groups. I'll bet you dollars to donuts at least a couple of them will completely misread the situation and act like a complete ass and get thrown out. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS ALRIGHT. I'm saying it IS understandable that people can act inappropriately, especially with such a chaotic and stimulant rich environment like BM.

SNIP "The CO, bless him for all he does, is probably planning do one next year even without prompting from me or the other two women just because of the drama fest that erupted around this dude." Wait..what? Up above you said the CO didn't do anything because essentially he didn't believe the 3 women's complaints against the one man. Now he's changing camp policy?

SNIP " I don't want to radically exclude anyone, but I know this guy will probably come back to the burn again, and we don't have any way of notifying the future camp he stays with that THIS GUY IS A SKETCHY PREDATORY DUDE. That steams me, because someday he's going to go too far and violate someone." Maybe. But if he had been reported to Rangers and LEO, there would be mechanisms that could help guard against such things. Now everyone will have to take their chances again.


At the end of the day, I am agreeing with you. Your post indicates that you did almost to the letter the very thing I proposed. And yet you attack me as being his defender or protector. I'm still unclear why that is. I only proposed the same thing I propose for any unsocial behavior in a community. Contact directly, if that doesn't work, contact directly with authority in the mix, and if it reaches the level of illegality, report to LE.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Dr. Pyro » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:55 am

LoR, that sounds like completely reasonable advice if you ask me.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:56 am

Lord Of Ruin wrote:But as a guy, it's really awful to have a misunderstand paint you with a brush you might not have deserved. Here's how I'd like it handled if I were the proposed creeper, but perhaps wasn't really.

I think this quote is a bad start, and then the rest reads like you're telling her what to do. When I'm upset about something, I don't want anyone telling me what to do. "Mirroring" might have been a better choice.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Runs; With Scissors » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:19 am

This: __________________________ is very true too.

Smenkare wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:Smenkare might be talking about creeps who don't cross that threshhold. Of course, that may not qualify as a creep in your view. I'm not going to say that creep is in the eye of the beholder, but nonetheless, there is probably a range of where we draw our lines.


What I mean is, there are a lot of people on the playa who come from different backgrounds

One woman's creeper is another woman's boyfriend/husband. There are guys at the burn who come off creepy. Once you get to know them, you don't feel creeped out at all.".


wh..sh wrote:
Smenkare wrote:Burning man is a very socially inclusive place. Radical Inclusion is part of the deal. So that means even people who might qualify as creepers and sex offenders get to be burners.


Oh no, no, no, no! This is not how interpret "radical inclusion".
"The right to swing your fist should end at the tip of my nose, but your right to express your ideas should not necessarily end at the lobes of my ears."
Radical Inclusion is for burning man, not for my body parts.


...plus the thing about an eviction kit. I think I'd have a hard time kicking someone out of my camp if I couldn't give them somewhere else to go. I might be mad enough to send them out with nothing but whatever they brough for their own survival (and if they didn't bring enough, screw them, they can go home!), but I would feel guilty later and cave in - or people would beg to re-include them because they were foolish and didn't bring enough of a very important item that they would need to get by - and I would cave in to the social pressure and because I was sick of being the villian who kicked them out. Plus, making them go home would probably result in someone else having to drive them home, which would further make me feel guilty / make me avoid people whom I thought were mad at me for it.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Trishntek » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:07 am

Being in a "sex positive" camp, we have a plethora of whips, chains, crops and various utensils of torture, bondage and implements of misery. For some reason, this seems to keep everyone respectful.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby wh..sh » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:27 am

Runs; With Scissors wrote:I think I'd have a hard time kicking someone out of my camp if I couldn't give them somewhere else to go. I might be mad enough to send them out with nothing but whatever they brough for their own survival (and if they didn't bring enough, screw them, they can go home!), but I would feel guilty later and cave in - or people would beg to re-include them because they were foolish and didn't bring enough of a very important item that they would need to get by - and I would cave in to the social pressure and because I was sick of being the villian who kicked them out. Plus, making them go home would probably result in someone else having to drive them home, which would further make me feel guilty / make me avoid people whom I thought were mad at me for it.

+ what if the person who is grabbing your butt is the camp leader? *did I just say that out loud?*
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:43 am

Of course, the social pressure might be really glad you have done it... In these cases it often turns out that there is simply a lack of will to stand up and be counted. If we go back to Smenkare's example where afterwards it turns out that two other women were also having issues...

(Oh the bitter irony here. "Because it is bitter and because it is my heart" not that I like poetry or the burma shave signs on the entry route...)
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Bob » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:53 am

My understanding is Harley and the theme camp crew have been flagging sex camps for special attention wrt safety, legality, etc. for 15 odd years.

Maybe all camps and campers should get the same warnings and be on notice to live up to the same responsibilities. Voluntarily posting the BED pledge is fine and dandy (though the "Communication is the Best Lubrication" slogan presents a mixed message IMHO), but lacks explicit consequences.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby MyDearFriend » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:18 am

Yeah and anybody who needs to be told that "NO MEANS NO" is already out of bounds, so, I don't see how that phrase can be helpful on a BED button. Though it makes a great alarm call! OP I'd suggest that as a response to creepy touchers, as it will certainly turn every head within ear shot.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Trishntek » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:09 am

wh..sh wrote:
Runs; With Scissors wrote:I think I'd have a hard time kicking someone out of my camp if I couldn't give them somewhere else to go. I might be mad enough to send them out with nothing but whatever they brough for their own survival (and if they didn't bring enough, screw them, they can go home!), but I would feel guilty later and cave in - or people would beg to re-include them because they were foolish and didn't bring enough of a very important item that they would need to get by - and I would cave in to the social pressure and because I was sick of being the villian who kicked them out. Plus, making them go home would probably result in someone else having to drive them home, which would further make me feel guilty / make me avoid people whom I thought were mad at me for it.

+ what if the person who is grabbing your butt is the camp leader? *did I just say that out loud?*

The people in our camp are either vetted by me or sponsored by a mutual friend. If an individual acts up, it is up to his/her peers to deal with the issue. As camp lead, I have to keep an eye on the big picture of the whole camp and what is best for the entire camp.

Individuals and individual problems are best left to those who know the person best. Now, what if the peer(s) are absent? I will then get involved and either take care of the issue unilaterally or make sure it is being dealt with in a responsible manner. But the camp lead should never concern him/herself with "being the bad guy." As-long-as the camp's welfare is paramount in the motivation for action, personalities and egocentricities are secondary to the greater good of everyone concerned.

I've been blessed with a sufficient number of responsible adults in our camp who step up and deal with various issues as they happen. I believe too, that individual campers would be wise to inquire about camp mates before making commitments to join. Of course this does not excuse a horny fuck trolling for pussy, but when anyone in my camp is so uncomfortable that they cannot feel at home, that person needs to speak up and let it be known!

What if the camp lead is the guilty party? The camp, as a whole needs to hold that person accountable for inappropriate behavior.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:27 pm

Bob wrote:My understanding is Harley and the theme camp crew have been flagging sex camps for special attention wrt safety, legality, etc. for 15 odd years.

Maybe all camps and campers should get the same warnings and be on notice to live up to the same responsibilities. Voluntarily posting the BED pledge is fine and dandy (though the "Communication is the Best Lubrication" slogan presents a mixed message IMHO), but lacks explicit consequences.

There are no explicit consequences. Everything has to be done on a case-by-case basis. B.E.D. has very little power and only two things it can do: educate in the hopes of prevention, and support when it actually happens. The LLC has one thing it can do, but it can do it in two ways, use the "we can revoke the ticket at any time" to either throw someone (person or camp) out or to prevent a known person from buying a ticket under his/her name. And, I suppose, refusing to place a theme camp that harbored someone previously involved in a sexual assault. And the big one, turn a sexual offender over to the LEOs. And we know that gets tricky without someone willing to press charges.
So, bed has sloguns, potty posters, buttons, workshops, and shoulders, and that's it. I don't like rapists, but I don't know that I favor denying them due process. In fact, I'm pretty sure I don't.
If you can think of anything else, great, I'm all for it. I've already said I support anyone reprinting the "How to Get Laid..." pamphlets. I suppose we could use one for a script on that extranormal or even as a ranting hitler movie.
And maybe the buttons give mixed messages, but I'm going to suggest that a variety of sloguns is going to get through to a variety of persons. And one person's mixed message may be anothers electrifying truth. I wish we had some way of sponcering a study to see which buttons have what effect. But we have to do it the old fashioned way of guessing...

And "no means no" may not stop a creep, but it may empower* a "good girl" to speak out.


*Yes, that term "empower" did make me through up in my mouth a little.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Smenkare » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:37 pm

Sorry i missunderstood you LoR. I'm back in default world now where i have the luxury of being able to look at the sitch and be pissed off. I'll go to LEO next time something like this happens, but i'll bet the LEOS will probably not do too much in a sitch like this because, as the perp put it, he had people that could vouch for him that night, and we didn't remember things the way they happened. I hadn't been drinking that night because i was taking it easy before the weekend. Still, like i said, i kept second guessing myself about the whole thing. I admit i should have done things i didn't, but i'd never been in this sitch before at the burn so i was a little slow in the acting. I'll be armed and deadly with knowledge of my rights next year, and the hammar can sleep in the car.

Small camp. A dousche. 3 chicks that dont like dousche's behavior. CO doesnt see dousche's behavior. Doushce has friends who will vouch for him. And i'll admit i didnt go to the leos or the rangers and i should have.
Last edited by Smenkare on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby wh..sh » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:42 pm

Smenkare wrote:Small camp, one doushe, three women who dont like the doushes behavior, doushe has friends who dont want him to get kicked out of camp. CO doesnt see bad behavior of doushe.

I do believe this happens. Sometimes, people crossing the line are people close to the camp's core group or they are part of the core group. I think it's a losing fight to get them kicked out.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Smenkare » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:02 pm

I edited the above post because I re read it and it sounded like i was trying to justify the way things happened. I know they were wrong, I'm just mad. Mad. Mad. Mad. EspeciLly reading about the Serial Rapist on the playa this year. What the Eff was going on? Fertility doesn't mean " must have sex no matter what!"
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:44 pm

Smenkare, you did your best. Now you have information that will help you do better. You also have on playa resources--B.E.D. and ESD and various peoples on this board--if something odd happens again.
Life is a learning process. Don't be impatient with yourself cause you learned something the hard way. I think you did well.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby BirthChazz » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:50 pm

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/09/w ... -things/3/

This is the end of a two section piece directed at nerds with poor social skills "Creeper behavior" that addresses quite nicely why hindsight gives people who have been the subject of unwanted behavior don't do what seems "logical" or the best thing at the time.
There is a fine line between giving support and suggestions to people who feel that their personal space and safety have been threatened so they can feel empowered the next time, and blaming him or her for what has happened.

I think the idea of radical Self reliance sometimes translates into these boards as- "you did not speak up, you deserve the treatment you got." When really we _as a culture_ need to have a much lower tolerance for creeper behavior.

Full articles are here-

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/12/d ... a-creeper/

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/09/w ... ce-things/

The author does not condone any of these behaviors, he thinks they are creepy- and should be labeled as such, regardless of intentions. No one should get a free pass.

and then the creeper card was born-

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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby BirthChazz » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:59 pm

Trishntek wrote:Being in a "sex positive" camp, we have a plethora of whips, chains, crops and various utensils of torture, bondage and implements of misery. For some reason, this seems to keep everyone respectful.



Some of the safest places I go as a single woman are kink events, and it is not because of the whips chains and hints of violence, it is because in general (although there are certainly individuals who violate that) the kink community fosters a culture of specific event consent. Boundaries are discussed a head of time, a good partner will always ask for clarification if anything is unclear, or will speak up if boundaries are being crossed, and a language in which to do so is agreed upon in advance.
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Trishntek » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:57 pm

BirthChazz wrote:
Trishntek wrote:Being in a "sex positive" camp, we have a plethora of whips, chains, crops and various utensils of torture, bondage and implements of misery. For some reason, this seems to keep everyone respectful.



Some of the safest places I go as a single woman are kink events, and it is not because of the whips chains and hints of violence, it is because in general (although there are certainly individuals who violate that) the kink community fosters a culture of specific event consent. Boundaries are discussed a head of time, a good partner will always ask for clarification if anything is unclear, or will speak up if boundaries are being crossed, and a language in which to do so is agreed upon in advance.


This is very true here at home as well. We host many parties where single women attend and have the security and assurance that all intentions are verbally expressed. Limits are well defined among partners and, often these discussions take place among witnesses. Plus, there is always someone monitoring the play spaces for possible infringements of boundaries.

New people are often astounded by our frank and open discussions pertaining to intentions, desires and limitations. Wankers ARE NOT TOLERATED!
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Re: How safe is burning man?

Postby Bob » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:41 pm

Ick.
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