Holding people accountable

Discuss the policies of ePlaya here.

Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:04 pm

So, it's kinda unclear from just browsing, if the mods will have an issue with me calling some people out by name, who were unreliable, didn't show up for doing work they'd promised for EA passes / Theme-camp tickets.

Personally, I wish to publicly out people by name, so that that information is findable when other responsible camp people are trying to vet potential workers (ie: they're trying to decide who to give tickets/EA passes to).

I mean, some people are going to be definitely blacklisted at my camps - but that doesn't help the community at large.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:09 pm

Why don't you instead talk about good techniques to ensure that you get an honest crew.

Names posted here will be pulled.

For instance, don't give early entry to people who you don't know, who don't have a track record. And it may well be a bad idea to give them to someone who contacts you...
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby EspressoDude » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:44 pm

thx crypto.

A positive way to vet folks for your camp instead of a public black list of negativity.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby Eric » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:57 pm

ender wrote:Personally, I wish to publicly out people by name, so that that information is findable when other responsible camp people are trying to vet potential workers (ie: they're trying to decide who to give tickets/EA passes to).

I mean, some people are going to be definitely blacklisted at my camps - but that doesn't help the community at large.


As Fishy said, posting other peoples names in this context will get the names edited out & potentially puts the poster of those names in violation of the Terms of Service they agreed to on signing up for the ePlaya (specifically under 7e)

It's up to camps to do vetting of their members, and a member who sucks in one camp may shine in another for a million different reasons. Besides, the ePlaya is not the place for a "community blacklist" and we have no desire to be the House Un-American Activities Committee.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:10 pm

Well frankly, if I have good workers, I'm not going to recommend them so that other camps can steal them.

I don't see any specific portion of 7e that such a post would violate. Please provide a quote.

Nor does it violate the community guidelines viewtopic.php?f=80&t=55547 - which merely mentions a personal attack. The truth isn't an attack.

I don't think it's a HUAC to keep people responsible for what they promised to do. I'm not telling anyone what to do with the information. You may certainly take in anyone. And I'm all for people learning hard things on their own. However, I know that I wish I had been able to find out about some of these people by doing a google search.

I also think that people would stop being flaky, if they knew that there might be personal consequences in their community for doing bad things. If there is no way to call out bad actors, you're just inviting people with bad intentions, and allowing them to know they'll be covered for.

I'm definitely willing to take the heat, and personal liability for my posting. I'm not out to defame people. I've got witnesses, and I've got documentation.


That said, currently I'm going to approach this problem in this manner, unless a mod / admin says otherwise.

If there are any other responsible camp leads who want names and details, or to discuss things off-list, PM me.

I'm probably going to post to CL, or somewhere else public, and hopefully google will take care of the problem.

Thanks for playing.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby Savannah » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:13 pm

ender wrote:Well frankly, if I have good workers, I'm not going to recommend them so that other camps can steal them.

I don't see any specific portion of 7e that such a post would violate. Please provide a quote.

Nor does it violate the community guidelines viewtopic.php?f=80&t=55547 - which merely mentions a personal attack. The truth isn't an attack.

I don't think it's a HUAC to keep people responsible for what they promised to do. I'm not telling anyone what to do with the information. You may certainly take in anyone. And I'm all for people learning hard things on their own. However, I know that I wish I had been able to find out about some of these people by doing a google search.

I also think that people would stop being flaky, if they knew that there might be personal consequences in their community for doing bad things. If there is no way to call out bad actors, you're just inviting people with bad intentions, and allowing them to know they'll be covered for.

I'm definitely willing to take the heat, and personal liability for my posting. I'm not out to defame people. I've got witnesses, and I've got documentation.


That said, currently I'm going to approach this problem in this manner, unless a mod / admin says otherwise.

If there are any other responsible camp leads who want names and details, or to discuss things off-list, PM me.

I'm probably going to post to CL, or somewhere else public, and hopefully google will take care of the problem.

Thanks for playing.


Eric IS a Mod, and he has told you otherwise.

Think about it this way: what you're proposing would be a really easy way for a someone to defame another unfairly. ePlaya is not the place for it.

We hate slackers and empty promises as much as you do, but I recommend you take your list of names to your regional groups and lists, if their terms allow it.

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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby trilobyte » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:17 pm

What they all said. We really prefer that you don't start 'throwing trash on the lawn' and airing camps' dirty laundry or sharing the drama with everyone. Aside from the ToS issues mentioned above, playing the public drama and shame game usually ends up making both parties look bad (who'd want to camp with or spend time at a camp that does that to its campmates?) - try to resist the urge to use the internet for such purposes if you can.

My advice for any campers or camp leaders who had bad experiences - do a better job of screening and choosing next time. It isn't necessarily that you did it wrong this year, Burning Man is something of an evolutionary process for us all. You learned some stuff from this year's experiences, make some notes (seriously, write it down someplace while it's still fresh in your memory) and be a little more cautious and careful next year.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:25 pm

Eric IS a Mod, and he has told you otherwise.


Hi. 'Unless' is defined in the dictionary. RIF.

would be a really easy way for a someone to defame another unfairly.


Do you have another manner in which to inform other people of bad actors/criminals? That's partly why we have public records, and why registered sex offenders have their information publicly posted, and mailed out to citizens.

Publicly posting information could be a way to defame a person. Why would you suspect people of the intent to commit this crime? Perhaps you come from a bad community.

If someone does commit defamation, the victim of such may certainly complain to the mods - I certainly have no problem with such, and personally, I expect site mods to take lock down and investigate such claims. A person who is defamed may also file civil suit, and the mods are required by law to hand over identifying information of the defamer.

I have absolutely zero concern that when I specifically call someone out, that I don't have evidence which I will be happy to present in court.

Like I said, I'm willing to take the liability.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:28 pm

trilobyte wrote:the ToS issues mentioned above,


Please provide a specific quote. I've not seen any yet.
Last edited by ender on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby Savannah » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:29 pm

ender wrote:I have absolutely zero concern that when I specifically call someone out, that I don't have evidence which I will be happy to present in court.


I know. I listened.

Like I said, I'm willing to take the liability.


We're not.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:33 pm

Savannah wrote:We're not.

Luckily, you don't have any.

Being disingenuous doesn't give you license.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby Major Krash » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:39 pm

if you are so sure your proof will hold up in court, sue them.

or learn from this, and do better next year in selecting your camp mates.

either way, keep me out of it....
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:44 pm

Major Krash wrote:if you are so sure your proof will hold up in court, sue them.


There's nothing to sue *about*. Unless I want to try to put monetary damages on a broken promise. That'll be problematical. Also, I'm not precisely rolling in the money to go putting people's names in the public record. Of course, next year, I may just have people sign contracts if they want EA passes, or ticket-codes.

Also, there are some people who have offered excuses. I'm not sure I buy them, but they might be plausible. I'd like to report that as well. Those people I personally won't be using if there are any other burners available and interested, but that should definitely be made public alongside their non-performance record.

Should those people be sued? I'd prefer not to, I'd rather just have that information public, and let other leads make their own decisions.

Major Krash wrote:do better next year in selecting your camp mates.


I'd like to, but... you can't find information about these people... since the mods don't want anyone to say anything bad about people.

Major Krash wrote:either way, keep me out of it....


I'm sorry, how are you in it? Read a different thread. Don't google their names.

Lemme guess, you're not in charge of a major camp, eh?
Last edited by ender on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby trilobyte » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:47 pm

On the subject of accountability, you may care to start with yourself and share the name of your camp (via the Camp Name profile field).
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:51 pm

ender wrote:Well frankly, if I have good workers, I'm not going to recommend them so that other camps can steal them.
I don't see any specific portion of 7e that such a post would violate. Please provide a quote.

Nor does it violate the community guidelines viewtopic.php?f=80&t=55547 - which merely mentions a personal attack. The truth isn't an attack.

I don't think it's a HUAC to keep people responsible for what they promised to do. I'm not telling anyone what to do with the information. You may certainly take in anyone. And I'm all for people learning hard things on their own. However, I know that I wish I had been able to find out about some of these people by doing a google search.

I also think that people would stop being flaky, if they knew that there might be personal consequences in their community for doing bad things. If there is no way to call out bad actors, you're just inviting people with bad intentions, and allowing them to know they'll be covered for.

I'm definitely willing to take the heat, and personal liability for my posting. I'm not out to defame people. I've got witnesses, and I've got documentation.


That said, currently I'm going to approach this problem in this manner, unless a mod / admin says otherwise.

If there are any other responsible camp leads who want names and details, or to discuss things off-list, PM me.

I'm probably going to post to CL, or somewhere else public, and hopefully google will take care of the problem.

Thanks for playing.

Um, boy, if your people believe in your camp and its mission and in the fellow campers then they will stay. If they find something that's a better fit, then you can't keep them. I can't even get to the wrongness of this view... it's too bizarre.

It's a vacation. Playa time exists on playa.

We're likely to hear more from various people in various positions in various camps...
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:04 pm

trilobyte wrote:you may care to start with yourself and share the name of your camp


I don't need to yet, do I?

I also have specifically asked the mods to point out where my proposed post violates *ANY* ToS.

So far, all of you have declined to do so. I see no reason to play ball with someone who is misusing a position of authority.

Try your guilt-trip somewhere else.

You've also decided to censor my request to meet people and learn of other locations. This too, seems to be some unwritten rule that I cannot find in the ToS or community guidelines (as they were written... given your conduct I suspect you'll just re-write them to fit whatever you want to do).

Maybe I'm missing something:
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:08 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:then you can't keep them. I can't even get to the wrongness of this view... it's too bizarre.


So I guess you're not aware that camp leads are responsible for people who've used their EA passes. It's not bizarre if you're responsible for people.

I'm guessing you're just ignorant.

It's also not bizarre to want to give limited resources to responsible people. Btw, what's your name, I'd like to make sure that I never give you an EA pass or a ticket-code. :) You can have fun on your playa-time with your own ticket.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby Sham » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:10 pm

Easy does it, trigger! :roll:
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby graidawg » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:11 pm

seriously whats with the hating going on these days on eplaya? do not name these guys publicly, it will lead to a flame war - not only between you and them but among eplaya in general. there are enough personal attacks on other eplayans,theme camps, the mods and burners who "got it wrong" at the moment without adding to it.

so you gave out EA passes to people you didn't know and nobody vetted then they didn't do as they promised? now you want to "out" them?
why?
will it make your camp work better this year?
will it make them better burners next year?

did anyone suffer as a result of there broken promises? probably. did it ruin their burn? I doubt it, the rest of you just had to pull together and get it done.

there's a famous saying you have probably heard it "shit happens"

learn from your mistakes Do Not Rely on people you Do Not Know (or that friends of yours know)

last year i made exactly 1 commitment on my first burn. Guess what, i fucked it up, nobody named and shamed me - they didn't invite me to try again but they didn't put me on the "offenders register" so in time, maybe when i feel i can cope with the commitment I can try again.
so if you are really pissed with these people my suggestion is Don't invite them to your camp again but don't try and spoil there future trips to the desert or worse have a potential employer find it and turn them down for a job they really need because you are pissed they let you down on a camping holiday
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby Eric » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:23 pm

ender wrote:
trilobyte wrote:the ToS issues mentioned above,


Please provide a specific quote. I've not seen any yet.


You agree not to use the Service to:

post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;
harm minors in any way;
harasses or advocates harassment of another person;


Putting a persons name out as unreliable based on your personal judgement can be harmful, defamatory, invasive or privacy, etc... all of which are banned.
Note: the mod team determines this, not you.

Let me say this as clearly as I can: you have been told by two moderators & the board administrator that you are not allowed to do this on the ePlaya. Period.

You can play torturous legal reasoning all you want, you are still not allowed to post this on the ePlaya. Period.

If you really feel this strongly about defaming people maybe you should set up your own website to do it on. You know, self-reliance & do-acracy and all that...
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby pinemom » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:26 pm

drop all expectations at the door. the playa is a funny place...and will remain a funny place...

Sounds like you had a rough time of it, that part sucks, but stamping your feet and name callin aint gonna fix your burn, that really was up to YOU!

plans go array...I prefer guidelines...
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby EspressoDude » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:27 pm

I think the negativity and hatred are showing up across lots of boards. It may be part of the decompression process, including self examination by the folks making those posts.

Cheers, it will be better next year.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:41 pm

graidawg wrote:will it make them better burners next year?

potential employer find it and turn them down for a job they really need because you are pissed they let you down on a camping holiday


Actually, it make make other people (like you) into better burners. If other people realize that they will be held accountable for their actions/inactions, they tend to be more careful about them, and to work at fulfilling them. Those people who failed can make restitution; do work next year, apologize, beg other leads that that's not really who they are and that they really will be responsible. If there are no consequences, why would a flake even bother to improve? Likely, they'll just offer themselves more excuses next time, I mean, what's the real harm, right? /sarcasm

Also, I potentially may make other camp-leads' burns much better, by preventing them from accepting people who aren't reliable. That, of course, is each individual camp lead's choice.

Frankly, I was hoping to keep it on a burner-related forum, so that the individuals could say; "That's just 2 weeks in the desert [potential-boss]." But it appears I will have to be posting this somewhere other than that. If that is the community's decision, then those people should be more careful about screwing other people over - since it may have more real-world consequences for them.

If you can't take the heat, then don't fuck things up. If you're just a flake, then don't sign up to do work, just go and party your ass off. That's fine with me.

you didn't know and nobody vetted then they didn't do as they promised


You guys sure to do jump to some conclusions. No, I vetted 'em all, as much as was possible (given the community's orientation towards hiding bad actor's actions). Many were people I've known - *shrug*. I'm am trying to do what I wish others had done for me.
Last edited by ender on Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:48 pm

Eric wrote:defamatory


Eric, please quite libeling and defaming me. I have not, nor have I ever, said that I would commit the crime of defamation (or for that matter, libel). You however, have just insinuated that I would do so.

I hope that *YOU* are ready to take liability for your actions.

Eric wrote:Putting a persons name out as unreliable based on your personal judgement can be harmful, defamatory, invasive or privacy, etc... all of which are banned.


Actually, no. Telling the truth is not a crime. At least, not in the United States. The UK and EU do have some different laws.

Eric wrote:Note: the mod team determines this, not you

you have been told by two moderators & the board administrator that you are not allowed to do this on the ePlaya. Period.


True, you may admin your boards any way you want. Which is why I asked, since the terms (and your actions) were not clear.

Eric wrote:If you really feel this strongly about defaming people maybe you should set up your own website to do it on. You know, self-reliance & do-acracy and all that...


I tried to, but you censored that. :)

Don't worry, I'm asking other places, and other people.

Google is your friend. ePlaya... not so much.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby Jackass » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:50 pm

Were these "employees" paid any money or supposed to be paid???

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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby graidawg » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:04 pm

Ender as you have been burning for 10 years now I am sure you are aware of how the playa effects people, and as you seem determined to publish these peoples names (while keeping yours and your camps secret) I guess they did something really horrific like shit in the tents before not putting them up. Do please remember though once you have posted on the internet it is there forever. that isn't a few weeks or a year or two its forever. those pictures i posted on a website that no longer exists - still on the internet, so if you post about these guys, YOU are fucking with there lives forever.
whatever they did is your butthurt enough to do that to them?
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby jkisha » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:18 pm

ender wrote:
Do you have another manner in which to inform other people of bad actors/criminals? That's partly why we have public records, and why registered sex offenders have their information publicly posted, and mailed out to citizens.


Like I said, I'm willing to take the liability.


First, people listed in public records have been found guilty by a court of law; and though you are willing to take the liability, I'm pretty sure BMORG isn't. And since they own this board...

Why not start your own website for reporting transgressors? See how far that gets ya.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby jkisha » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:22 pm

ender wrote:
Eric wrote:If you really feel this strongly about defaming people maybe you should set up your own website to do it on. You know, self-reliance & do-acracy and all that...


I tried to, but you censored that. :)

Don't worry, I'm asking other places, and other people.

Google is your friend. ePlaya... not so much.


Now I'd be interested to hear the details on that.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby maryanimal » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:27 pm

I must come out of retirement for this> ender you're trying to create a pile of shit where it doesn't need to be. I don't care about what happened in your camp or anything else. [redacted by moderator] Get The Fuck Over Yourself! and as I read it Eric IS NOT defaming you in any way. [redacted by moderator]

You seem dead set on being nothing but a big chowderhead. Doesn't bother me any, but you have to live with your own actions, nobody else does. Posting peoples' name anywhere is opening doors to suing you for multiple things. So why don't you give it a rest and stop causing so much of your own self-appointed drama! Oh, good luck with that too. And as far as eplaya not being your friend, sorry fella, the folks in here are the best you'll find anywhere.


I said my piece, now keep going, nothing to see here.



ender wrote:
Eric wrote:defamatory


Eric, please quite libeling and defaming me. I have not, nor have I ever, said that I would commit the crime of defamation (or for that matter, libel). You however, have just insinuated that I would do so.

I hope that *YOU* are ready to take liability for your actions.

Eric wrote:Putting a persons name out as unreliable based on your personal judgement can be harmful, defamatory, invasive or privacy, etc... all of which are banned.


Actually, no. Telling the truth is not a crime. At least, not in the United States. The UK and EU do have some different laws.

Eric wrote:Note: the mod team determines this, not you

you have been told by two moderators & the board administrator that you are not allowed to do this on the ePlaya. Period.


True, you may admin your boards any way you want. Which is why I asked, since the terms (and your actions) were not clear.

Eric wrote:If you really feel this strongly about defaming people maybe you should set up your own website to do it on. You know, self-reliance & do-acracy and all that...


I tried to, but you censored that. :)

Don't worry, I'm asking other places, and other people.

Google is your friend. ePlaya... not so much.
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Re: Holding people accountable

Postby ender » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:31 pm

jkisha wrote:Now I'd be interested to hear the details on that.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=62703

trilobyte wrote:we are not allowing your thread asking for recommendations on where to discuss "things that will get censored on ePlaya."


I've posted a copy of what I posted to ePlaya to my regional list. Basically I asked people to PM me.
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