AMBER Alert abuse

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ZaphodBurner » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:17 pm

bunnyalert wrote:
There used to be a time when burners were fiercely protective of their civil liberties, but things evolve. The community would have revolted if a form of Marshall Law was instigated


Lol! It's martial law. But what do I know? You're the expert. (I play a JCM 900, on the other hand, which some Marshall experts say lacks the character of the 800s and Plexis, but, mine goes past 11 all the way to 20 and I had an Ozzfest guitar tech hot-rod it, so, who knows? Mesas are for pussies anyway. There's an actual law...)

bunnyalert wrote:But now... Anytime an angry teen teen stomps off into the playa, it's time to crack skulls. If BMorg's missing child protocol also included tazing everyone with 'bunny' in their playa name, people now would gladly line up.


Nobody got skulls cracked and nobody as of yet has proven to have been tased. Did you hear Daft Punk played in my friend's van?
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby gibson_ » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:17 pm

Bunny:

Did you try to leave and have somebody imprison you? Like...walk out to the trash fence, jump over it, and leave? I don't think anybody would have stopped you.

Similarly, the pilots your saying were "imprisoned" could have just picked their airplanes up and carried them away as well.

Well...actually they probably couldn't have, they'd need some sort of...runway...or something. Too bad the runway at the BRC airport was temporarily closed!
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Bob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:39 pm

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Jay-Z, Manchester, 2010.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby gyre » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:53 pm

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ZaphodBurner » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:25 pm

Bob, Gyre. I so fucking love you!
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Bob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:47 pm

Hey, I used to live in Marshall.

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ygmir » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:55 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:Let's all sue everybody and fuck up Burning Man for trying to make sure a teenager wasn't abducted.

The proper way to do this is exactly the way it's done at the Gate... Check every vehicle for stowaways or abductees.

They could have handled it better, but, lawyers? The ACLU? Fuck you. Take your whiney shit to Disneyland. I'm glad the girl was found safe, and she should be banned from Black Rock City until she's 21.


well said.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby wraith » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:05 pm

delle wrote:
She was a 15yr old who tantrum'd off. No abduction. A city-wide call for help would have been sufficient. I can't think of a community that would have been more cooperative. Search, yes. Detain, no. It was overkill to call it an Amber Alert. (no other city would have -- the very first criteria of an Amber alert is "Law enforcement must confirm that an abduction has taken place.")

I have this niggling feeling that she's not the first 15 yr old to do this.... but perhaps mummy's aunt the "famous" reporter had something to do with the severity of the measures taken.

And THAT I have a problem with.


Yup. To illustrate, we recently had two little girls go missing here in Iowa, assumed abduction, but the cops didn't call for an Amber Alert because they couldn't confirm it. There are very specific conditions for using that system.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby vargaso » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:04 am

This case is pretty simple. It was an improper use of the Amber Alert, they should have just allowed exit only after seeing ID and searching the vehicle. As for those inconvenienced for a few hours, I can understand your frustration, but to elevate that temporary feeling to something worthy of a lawsuit is ridiculous. Do you like Burning Man? Do you realize it's precarious existence? I don't know, some people just like to have their voices heard, I guess.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby FIGJAM » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:20 am

I heard they did'nt even report her missing for 22 hours and I did'nt know she was that old.

I thought someone had lost a small child. :roll:
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby DustHand » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:47 am

As a point of clarification, Amber Alerts are a part of State EAS plans, and it's primary focus is that of broadcasters (radio, TV and Cable). There are some active highway signs that are part of the system, and police are notified of an alert, but it is directly related to an EAS alert on broadcast entities.

Every state has an EAS Plan:
http://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/services/eas/chairs.html
and Amber Alerts are a part of that plan:
http://www.amberalert.gov/state_contacts.htm
The State EAS plans are reviewed by the FCC. The Amber Alert Criteria vary state by state, but here is the criteria for Maryland. I am sure Nevada's is similar:

Maryland AMBER Plan Criteria
The following criteria are utilized to determine if an Amber Alert should be issued for the State of Maryland:
1. Law enforcement confirms a child has been abducted.
2. The child is under the age of 18.
3. Law enforcement believes the circumstances surrounding the abduction indicate that the child is in danger of serious bodily harm or death.
4. There is enough descriptive information about the child, abductor, and/or suspect's vehicle to believe an immediate broadcast alert will help.
5. The child is believed to still be in the broadcast area.
6. The child's name and other critical elements have been entered into NCIC by police.
ONLY A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY CAN REQUEST AN ACTIVATION OF THE AMBER ALERT SYSTEM THROUGH THE MARYLAND STATE POLICE.

It sounds to me, that while this is being referred to as an "Amber Alert," it was really a reaction of local authorities to a report of a missing child. I am not in any way defending or criticizing these actions, simply stating that calling it an "Amber Alert" is a misnomer.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby some seeing eye » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:23 pm

If we just called it a golden sparkle unicorn alert and let vehicles that wanted to leave be searched and sniffed would everybody be happy? There is a good argument that the individual should be sentenced to a few weeks of hard labor, I mean work restitution with DPW. In fact, that would be a good remedy for all those convicted of minor offenses.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ohCarie » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:20 pm

Yes, it seems clear that the criteria for an Amber alert was not met. No abduction and no description of suspect was verified. This is annoying and undermines the system. Something like a Code Adam protocol may have been better. People can exit, but only after basic inspection (make sure a 15 yo girl isn't hiding under their hat, etc) and all workers are on alert. It's frustrating because the vast majority of "abductions" are not by strangers and missing persons are often runaways. Yes they may be in danger, but the level of ensuing panic and urgency of the populace is not the same.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby onzilla » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:53 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Let's all sue everybody and fuck up Burning Man for trying to make sure a teenager wasn't abducted.

The proper way to do this is exactly the way it's done at the Gate... Check every vehicle for stowaways or abductees.

They could have handled it better, but, lawyers? The ACLU? Fuck you. Take your whiney shit to Disneyland. I'm glad the girl was found safe, and she should be banned from Black Rock City until she's 21.


You are as thick as the day is long. You must work at the DMV.

This has nothing to do with the teenager - they will be just that. this has to do with the response to a missing teen.

This has to do with the semi retarded BLM official(?) who thinks that shutting down the airport because of a missing person is 1) within his jurisdiction 2) going to solve the problem.

Maybe I'm just a pragmatist but please explain to me how keeping me from my plane is going to get this teenager back? I sit there for two hours looking at my plane and.... Ok one more time ... Please explain to me why I can not leave?

And that is the whole point - the only thing I want is for this not to happen to me or anyone else again. Period. Please suggest the best way to make this happen. It certainly involves the identification of the people or person who made the call to have the world screech to a halt. And based on their sense of judgement, I honestly don't know how to get it through to them. It is self evident that they are just not smart. Just like you their day job is probably the DMV.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby unjonharley » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:08 pm

ONE MORE TIME onzilla.. The BLM can do anything they dam well please..

They just put it under the G W Bush patriot act.. It will be there way to tell you to kiss there ass..Suggest you close you yup before they ground you for good
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby trilobyte » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:16 pm

It is my understanding that the protocol was initiated at the request of Pershing County officials.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Sham » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:28 pm

This is all part of a "plan" that is worked out and put into place should this type of emergency happen. I've seen this used at stores like Walmart. Code Adam requires an immediate stationing of employees at every exit of the store--including non-used emergency exits. As long as the missing 3 year old girl in the blue dress is not leaving with anyone, the exits remains open and manned by all available employees.

I really don't think the 15 year old girl knew she was setting off such a mass hysteria when she ran off, and I don't think the parents realized what outrageous inconvenience they were causing to everyone when they reported their daughter missing.

I wonder if this strong reaction will cause people to think twice before contacting authorities when they have a lost teen? Someone also mention that if a child is truly abducted (which I have never heard of in BRC), they could be virtually anywhere, any RV or tent, not necessarily leaving the city in a car. Do they not let anyone leave for days if the child is still lost for a few days?

I think there needs to be a new plan.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby onzilla » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:30 pm

Unjohn

I'm just not used to having some ignorant government official jump up and down on my ball sack and not get pissed off about it.

Can you please explain to us how you do it so well? Ir must have taken you years to master...
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby vapor » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:39 pm

So I have a somewhat different perspective . . . I lay most of the blame on the parents or guardians of the teenager. If you take a teenager up to Burning Man you damn well better have some idea how they are going to act and react to the events at B'Man. You damn well better trust their judgement, because there is no way you'll keep them on a leash the whole time. You damn well should have "the serious talk" about behavior, consequences, communication and the seriousness of the event. And, let them know how to have fun safely. OR, if you don't trust them enough to not worry then don't bring them. Period. It's not like you can follow them around all the time with night scopes. It's not like you want to anyway. And if you've never been to the event then you really shouldn't take a kid your first year.

I say all this as a father who brought his teenage daughter (17) twice. We had "the talk", I walked the city with her for a few days and then she was on her own. I just asked that she let me know more or less what she was up to and more or less when she'd check back in, usually within about a 12 hour window. She loved it, she didn't get into any lasting trouble (meaning I didn't see any aftermath) and she'll go again on her own.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby unjonharley » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:54 pm

trilobyte wrote:It is my understanding that the protocol was initiated at the request of Pershing County officials.


And they can hide behind the BLMs skirt where you get the same old same old..
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby latchseeker » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:31 pm

@ Bob, Great Fucking signature,



"Girl Abducted from burning man, family sues!"


^ is this the headline you want? Don't make a giant stink over people doing their jobs to ensure this event maintains its future for people who need and or have never been
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Steppy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:15 pm

Ok, a few points here.

I'm not sure where you got the "Amber Alert" vs. other protocol terminology from. I was on comms and participated in the search for the child. As soon as reported to a BR Ranger or LEO (in this case it was reported to BRR by a parent) the Lost Child Protocol was initiated. This protocol is no secret, and is a protocol rapidly be adopted by virtually every other festival event in the Western U.S.

Basically all outbound traffic save LEO and other Emergency Services vehicles are prohibited until it is lifted. Only on scene LEO in coordination with the lead BRR can lift it, normally when the child is found.

They cannot simply "search all outbound vehicles" because there are not enough sworn LE at the event to effectively do this. Gate or Ranger volunteers are not trained to do this function.

The LCP lasted approximately 2.5 HOURS on Thursday.

It seems like there's a lot of hindsight stuff going on here with the assumption that "BLM/Rangers/LEO knew XYZ at the outset"....

It was not known she was a run away.
It was not characterized that she left her camp because of a noise complaint.
She is under the age of 18. LCP is initiated when anyone under 17 years, 364 days is reported missing by a reliable source (normally parent or guardian, but normally this is invoked on the side of caution).
She was away from camp for a VERY long time.
There were reliable reports of camps she had visited, and those were visited by BRR to no avail.
Local county LEO (Pershing County) called off the LCP after extensive interview with the parents.
Some traffic WAS released after being searched by LEO, but they soon called that off as they didn't have the staff to continue it long term. I'd say that was done from approximately 1.5 hours in for about an hour before BLM/Pershing said they couldn't do it any longer.

So really...I wonder why someone isn't willing to give up 2.5 hours of their non-emergency time to ensure the safety of a child...even a 15.5 year old one. Trust me...it pissed me off too. I walked those dirty streets talking to camps in the hottest part of the day as I was prohibited from leaving as well (pre-arranged errand into town).

People need to stop trying to read into the stories now that details are emerging and imagining that the people involved in the LCP knew all that in those first two hours. I can attest that for the first two of them all we knew is her age, physical description, name and the fact that her parents were very worried that she had gone missing in such a tempting environment.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Bob » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:30 pm

Oh, but you personally violated the civil rights of an asshole with a pilot's license. How can you possibly live with that?
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby onzilla » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:20 am

Steppy - thank you for the thoughtful and informative reply. 
Bob - go back to Russia you socialist pig

We live in a country that places value on freedom.  Bob, you seem to feel that this freedom is revocable based on the esoteric judgement of some bureacrat but I strongly disagree. 

If I choose to come or to go or to help look for this girl or to not help - this is MY choice.  Not the choice of some monkey with a walkie talkie.  This right is inalienable.  I don't care if this is just for 2.5 mins or 2.5 hours or 2.5 days. If you don't have the resources to check departing traffic, the simple answer is that you don't check it.

I also support the right of the parents to bring their 15 year old daughter with them to burning man.  They should however be prepared to deal with the consequences of doing so.  Which includes the possibility that she may disappear if you aren't watching her.  And to deal with these consequences on their own.  Not to make their problem the problem of 60k other people. 
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ygmir » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:03 am

onzilla:
I gotta say, some of what you state, I agree with........but, (maybe you're not a parent or don't think this way), it strikes me as pretty dang selfish, to not want to be "delayed" due to a possible abducted child.
Yeah, I get it, that in your particular circumstance, you personally could have been checked, and your plane, and gone on. But, how, do you expect a protocol to be written for that? not knowing available personnel (sworn LEO) for such a task?
Yup, you are very correct, it is not, and should not, be incumbent upon you, to help search. But, one might think, you'd have the decency to support those who do, and are.
Can you imagine, the angst,of those who care about her? egad man, have some sympathy!!!
Would you have this same attitude, were it an 8 year old missing? If not, why not?

Yup, in another reality, people would know you are one of the "good guys" and let you leave, with little or no hassle. and others, as well......but sad experience, has shown, we can't judge a book by it's cover, and bad people can look very nice,and seem very kind and legitimate (BTK, etc).........
I don't expect to change your mind here, and don't find fault it parts of your arguments. I guess I'm just sounding off, to opine in the public eye, and add my 2 cents.

But know, if a loved one of yours is missing, I will move mountains, to help find them, and I'll stop everyone at the gates, until it's over.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby MacGlenver » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:17 am

ygmir wrote:But know, if a loved one of yours is missing, I will move mountains, to help find them, and I'll stop everyone at the gates, until it's over.


Being so nice is an unfair tactic :P
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby some seeing eye » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:41 am

Thanks Steppy for short circuiting the Internet game of telephone "I heard that someone said that there was a rumor that someone told them...", and throwing some cooling water on message board flames. 2.5 hours is an awesome response time.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Nipple » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:28 am

MEANWHILE IN A PARALLEL DIMENSION...

alternate dimension bunnyalert wrote:In the case of missing 15 year old Nikki Peress, BMorg and local law enforcement did NOTHING while this girl was allowed to wander out of the event and get lost in the middle of no where. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE! Why weren't they prepared for this? Why wasn't there a contingency? SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!

NEVER AGAIN!!!
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby brcprincess » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Amber Alert seems like overkill to me.

Which organization made the call? Or was several in conjunction?
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:59 am

If you'll read the thread, you'd see that it was likely not an Amber alert, and that Pershing County made the call.
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