NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:50 am

You have to ask?

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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby AntiM » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:06 am

EspressoDude wrote:
AntiM wrote:Thanks sweetpea, advice is so useful.

And no, you can't lick my frosting.


Wait, I am more confused that usual!! Foxfur said his wife Sweetpea registered for Farcebook, not Eplaya...I don't understand

AntiM: what flavor frosting are we missing out on..??..


Apologies, I meant "sugar buckets".

Strawberry Cream Cheese. (They make medicines for that, I know).
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby urvile » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:09 pm

A big issue for me in judging any playa behavior is consent. To wit, if the all the persons involved are capable of, and have given their consent I have a hard time attaching social disapprobation to that behavior. obviously this model does not work for any and all circumstances, but it is a good guideline.

The problem with overly loud and/or obnoxious MV's is that because of their mobile nature, there may well be circumstances where they are subjecting others to their sound/behavior without their consent. I can think of many examples where this is deminimis and of no concern, and others where it could be greatly concerning. I can't necessarily expect everyone to conform to the standards of someone whose sensibilities are made of egg-shells, but I also can feel justifiably outraged at those who selfishly and needlessly screw with a lot of other people's burn.

So now we have some new guidelines. I would expect those guidelines will be like all the others. That is, enforced rarely and only in exceptional circumstances except for those who repeatedly violate it and/or who go out of their way to be jackasses. When it is enforced it will probably consist of little more than a gentle reminder from Rangers or DMV in the majority of cases. I have no problem with repeat offenders and those demonstrating poor civic spirit ending up in D lot however.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby glitter-mouse » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:48 am

urvile wrote:A big issue for me in judging any playa behavior is consent.

consent is a major issue on the playa. one of the major consent issues is that a woman who is drunk is legally unable to consent to intimate physical contact. any woman on the playa can claim she was raped by claiming she was intoxicated at the time. men need to be aware of this out there.

i'm puzzled by the fact that women can get a DUI when the same principle should apply. if a woman drinks too much and then drives, it really shouldn't be her fault. she was unable to consent to the act of driving while intoxicated because she was intoxicated. so DUI laws should not apply to women - just like children are not be allowed to contract; they are mentally unable.

that being said, if you hook-up with a woman on the playa, you need to have her sign something stating her sobriety or at least have several witnesses stating that she seemed sober at the moment you touched her breasts or genitalia. otherwise you could be in some serious hot water out there, gents.

consent is king. don't make a move without it. and if she has a drink in her hand, make sure you get the required paperwork signed - preferable notarized.
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Re: New BRC Vehicle Sound Policy

Postby junglesmacks » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:58 am

AntiM wrote:
videoparker28 wrote:
junglesmacks wrote:I'm torn on this. Very, very torn.

After learning to shun the corner sound camps in favor of the deep playa MV party while dancing under the stars, I'm very nervous about that vibe being able to survive after this. If you're telling me that Robot Heart in deep playa.. with it's speakers facing completely opposite of the city must now stick to the 10 and 2 where it's already a giant clusterfuck.. then.. well.. that blows to say the least.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out..




I think it mean you have to be out in open Play beyond 10 & 2...that is a wide open place DEEP OPEN PLAYA but yes I agree with you on this concern.



Doesn't say they can't out on the deep playa, just not at the highest levels. Is that truly so awful?

And not playing the inner streets super-loud is just being cool with other burners. Is that so wrong?



No and definitely no.


I should have prefaced the above statement by saying that in all honesty I'm not sure what the nominal db value for RH is anyway that they're playing at. It could be very well that they they're already in compliance. I've never thought that it was overly loud when we're deep playa..
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby BBadger » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:11 pm

If you fire your speakers downward, you'll actually get some pretty good sound, only it'll reflect upwards rather than outwards. It's the usual positioning for DIY Sonotube subwoofers (speakers made from MDF concrete pouring tubes). You can then have your sound localized, even if it is loud.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby some seeing eye » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:40 pm

Sound pressure levels are up there in least publicized numbers for comparison.

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pres ... ure_levels at the bottom.

0dB is the quietest sound we can hear. Can we have some places on the playa at 10dB and under?

Can a person with undamaged hearing enjoy the music and dance without earplugs? (85-90dB)

That's the discussion, not how many dB I can make but not measure with infinite dollars.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby lemur » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:11 pm

1976 Guinness Book of World Records entry:

Loudest Pop Group

The amplification for The Who concert at Charlton Athletic Football Ground, London, England, May 31, 1976, provided by Tasco PA system, had a total power of 76,000 watts from eighty 800 W Crown DC 300 A amplifiers and twenty 600 W Phase Linear 200’s. The readings at 50 m (164 ft) from the front of the sound system were 120 decibels. Exposure to such noise levels is known to cause PSH — Permanent Shift of Hearing or partial deafness.

http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/gear/pa/pa7576.html



it could be different now, bigger.. or smaller.. but this is the most consistant number i could find, 74,000 to 75,000 in 2009/2010 for robot heart..

We are Robot Heart, a mobile sound camp, designed to freely roam the Playa, constantly exploring, enjoying, and breaking border constraints, all the while spinning mad beats on our 74,000 Watt sound system that will simply blow your human minds and leave you longing to curl up with our subwoofers.

viewtopic.php?t=30604


i see a few places that quote 100,000watt for dancetronauts..

Music and Mutant Vehicles:
The Dancetronauts, a space ship styled art car, will be supporting the live music and doing performances of their own. Starting at the burn time, this art car with over 100,000 watts of power will be spinning the rest of the night away turning S. 3rd street into a dance party while Lucy burns.

http://lasvegas.bmcore.com/




those quoted numbers and the actual power they put through their system are probably differentor what they might even be capable of...... but!! its just... an example that yeah! theres some huge sound systems out there that could probably easily blow past the set policy..

Level 3: Large Dance Club, Arena, Stadium (100db or more at 100ft or more)
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby EspressoDude » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:21 pm

a lot of the level of noise depends on the efficiency of the speakers..If they are cheap ones or blown out not so much volume of dB's
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby some seeing eye » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:01 pm

Mr Espresso and Lemur have good insights. Most speakers today have a standard sensitivity in the midrange of 96dB at 1 Watt at 1 meter. So thousands of Watts are only testosterone.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby 5280MeV » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:26 pm

Could it be that a lot of the big sound systems, other than evil stick monster trucks, are not just trying to make loud noise, they are trying to make loud noise at low frequency? It is pretty easy to make loud noise at 1000 Hz, but not so much at 30 Hz because of human sound perception.

Looking at the equal loudness contour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour), it appears that if you want to have your bass keep up with the mids at 80 dB, your 30 Hz bass has to be playing at 110 dB. To get down to 20 Hz at the bottom of the human range you need 120 dB. Is this not a 10,000x jump in the required power?

So it seems like the use of 74,000W may be different depending on what you want that power for. If you really want strong bass, you need incredible power?

Also, does loudness (phon) or actual power (dB) cause hearing loss? In other words, is 120 dB at 30Hz equivalent to 120 dB at 1000Hz, or 80 dB at 1000Hz, or somewhere in between?

Robot Heart didn't seem all that insanely loud when I found it in the morning - certainly not oppressive, and everyone around the area seemed to be loving it - including me, so maybe I am biased.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby lemur » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:28 pm

i suffered acoustic trauma in my right ear while in a crowd surrounded by people who were loving it.

ears dont seem to care how much fun you, or people around you.. are having.. and i felt fine until the point i didnt..
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby EspressoDude » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:37 pm

good speakers:

Altec Voice of the Theater 99Db/watt;
Klipsch RF7 101 Db/watt;
JBL Paragon 110 db/watt
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby glitter-mouse » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:44 pm

i think we can all agree that burning man is too loud.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby EspressoDude » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:53 pm

74000 Watts (true rms watts) is just under 100 horsepower. Enough to move a truck or bus at playa speeds
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby lemur » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:02 pm

youre probably trollling (judging from previous comments), glitter-mouse, when you say 'burning man is too loud' .. but........ it is a very dangerous place for people concerned with the safety of their ears...

it seems that the only people who are genuinely concerned about ear safety are ones who it is too late for.. people whove injured their ears and suffer hearing loss/problems..

shade structures dont work so well for stopping loud sound..

even outside of mutant vehicles with dance music and loud sound camps it is a place where potentially damaging sound is abundant

fire effects related stuff can be super loud.... i remember sitting watching a quiet little film once with a group of people when a guy next door must have been bleeding off pressure from some tank on his fancy fire poofers and it was super insane screechingly loud all out of nowhere for 10+ seconds?.. its not like people were expecting it.. and ya couldnt have really gotten yer ears safe before it happened cuz you werent in a place where you expected such crazy loud noise.. that is the kind of noise that can hurt/damage/injure

hell even the hippies with their drum circles can get to the point of being dangerously loud

i remember one year sitting listening to a lecture at a cafe when some asshat came up just outside of it and started blowing the loudest damned safety whistle ive ever heard until someone ran out of the dome and made it clear that he needed to stop.. (those things can easily top 100dB)

its not like the structures we hang out in at burning man have firm walls, .. a parachute doesnt exactly do much to stop loud noise..

so yeah!! burning man does have many situations where stuff is too loud, possibly injurious loudness..... there are many situations, even outside of the dance music realm, where loud sound happens that you might not expect, might not be prepared for and didnt choose to be around..

of course!! plenty of people are having fun around all these loud noises and loud music.. and until they get injured by the loud noise and loud music they probably wont give a crap about how important safety around such things is until their ears are leaking down their neck and they live with the results of an ear injury the rest of their life.

.....seems to be another one of those things.. among MANY MANY things ...where you only seem to notice, to really give a fuck once it happens to you... such is life.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Dustdevil » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:16 pm

Having brought the two loudest mechanical "devices" to the Playa, I can assure you that our crew goes to great lengths before we start the engines to pass out ear plugs and warn people with younger children to move back. We wear ear plugs and noise cancelling headsets while we are operating them. Talking is out of the question so we use hand signals. El Diablo was measured at 147 db at 75' and the Crude Awakening Siren produces 138db at 100'. In a rural area it has a range of 16 miles and at that it is still 40db.
And yes, I am concerned with ear safety because I wasn't when I was young. Now I have little high frequency and a general loss of hearing on both sides. It became noticable after the Northern CA Folk Rock Festival in 1970.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby glitter-mouse » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:56 pm

well, one of my reasons that i go out to the burn is to catch up on my spiritual encounters. and noise out there is effectively an assault on my person. i don't like to hear things that i don't want to hear. i'm very vocal about it. when something is noisy i'll stand in front of the art car and even lay my body down on the playa to stop their party so that they will realize they have interfered with my immediate experience. that's why i bring with me many tools to disable sound systems. my experience on the playa is a spiritual experience and all this music prevents me communing with my goddess and stops me from fulfilling my playa destiny.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby some seeing eye » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:17 pm

Dustdevil, bravo!

I bring my earplugs and have experienced performances by performers like you who distribute earplugs. I urge performers to measure their sound intensity with calibrated meters and communicate intentions and earplugs, to the hundreds of BM attendees at each playa event!

For music, where the intensity is controllable, levels >10 feet should be BM normal without earplugs, 90 dBA or less.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby vapor » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:37 pm

I camp with Opulent Temple, our system is I think around 100K watts. One evening the stick thing or train came by and was so loud it completely drowned out the OT mix from about the middle of the dance floor. I went and talked to the OT sound engineer, he said we were at about 30% power. Which was still plenty loud on the dance floor were it not for the lame ass bombing by the art car. He said that general guidelines for OT sound are ~30% up through midnight, up to maybe 50-60% for a few hours, then back down lower and lower through dawn. I was quite surprised to find out how low the power output was, don't know what that means for DBs.

Anyway, I'd bet that the new policy won't affect art cars such as Robot Heart, Dancetronauts, Space Cowboys, etc. They seem to pay close attention to their surrounding and location and adjust accordingly.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby gyre » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:45 pm

5280MeV wrote:Could it be that a lot of the big sound systems, other than evil stick monster trucks, are not just trying to make loud noise, they are trying to make loud noise at low frequency? It is pretty easy to make loud noise at 1000 Hz, but not so much at 30 Hz because of human sound perception.

Looking at the equal loudness contour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour), it appears that if you want to have your bass keep up with the mids at 80 dB, your 30 Hz bass has to be playing at 110 dB. To get down to 20 Hz at the bottom of the human range you need 120 dB. Is this not a 10,000x jump in the required power?

So it seems like the use of 74,000W may be different depending on what you want that power for. If you really want strong bass, you need incredible power?

Also, does loudness (phon) or actual power (dB) cause hearing loss? In other words, is 120 dB at 30Hz equivalent to 120 dB at 1000Hz, or 80 dB at 1000Hz, or somewhere in between?

Midrange drivers are usually far more efficient than bass drivers, but high efficacy is reached with bass too.
My old Klipschs are far in excess of 100 decibel/watt.
EV has made 18" drivers rated at 100 db/watt and capable of handling very high power.
I've seen a number of these on playa.

My large EVs are flat to 15 hz with similar efficiency.

To translate, this means 100 db is reached with one watt output and adequate damping and headroom is achieved with 10 watts or less.
So I typically use a quarter to half watt for listening.

The decibel curve means that increasing amounts of power are needed to raise volume levels.


Hearing damage is a different discussion, but damage can occur at specific frequency ranges.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Tiahaar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:00 am

EspressoDude wrote:a lot of the level of noise depends on the efficiency of the speakers..If they are cheap ones or blown out not so much volume of dB's


oh yeas...and the way they are oriented. I gotta keep my post count alive so for lack of a better spot to put this I share an interesting read on line array speaker positioning theory that I ran across while looking for info on my DJ setup: Did I Hear Someone Say "Line Array"?
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby gyre » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:32 am

This is the only amp they should allow for canned/dj music on the playa.

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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Canoe » Mon May 14, 2012 8:04 am

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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Elorrum » Mon May 14, 2012 11:28 am

EspressoDude wrote:good speakers:
Altec Voice of the Theater

I'd love to hear a pair of these.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby AdamOfTheRedEarth » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:08 pm

As a first time burner this year, I'd have to say that some of the art cars were simply obnoxiously loud and intrusive. If they want to go out on the playa and blast then that's cool but do they really need to shatter everyone's eardrums while driving down the streets? Also, I was quite surprised that all the art cars were blasting music during the burning of the man. I could barely even make out the sound of the drummers with the fire dancers due to countless art cars all blasting different songs.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Ugly Dougly » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:40 am

To be honest, it's one factor that kept me from returning this year. Maybe I'll wait until the situation improves.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby AntiM » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:06 am

Camp up the street had an art car they were using as sound for their camp, playing intensely loud for no apparent reason. Even with good earplugs, it vibrated the base of my skull. They were really nice about taking it down a few notches. Still loud and ignoring the rules, but sleeping with earplugs loud is better than making me want to puke involuntarily loud.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby skippy3k » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:11 pm

Was it the big white one? That was probably the loudest "art" car I saw (heard?) out there. I experience equal parts awe and irritation. It was more irritation when they cruised up our street at 6am.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby gyre » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:13 pm

Report these things to the dmv!
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