AMBER Alert abuse

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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby gibson_ » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:54 am

Wow -- torn on this one, actually.

FAA action for taking off? That's [i]pretty[/i] fucked up.

That said, we're a community, and when our community loses somebody, our community stops what they're doing until that person is found.

That's why we close the gate when a kid goes missing, and don't open it until we find them. Bunny, if you don't want to participate in our community, don't come next year.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby bunnyalert » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:07 am

gibson_ wrote:That's why we close the gate when a kid goes missing, and don't open it until we find them.

Yes, and that's illegal.

gibson_ wrote:Bunny, if you don't want to participate in our community, don't come next year.

If that kind of participation means sacrificing the the civil liberties of everyone for the security of a runaway who was not even lost to begin with, then there is no community to speak of participating in - no community of any integrity, that is.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby gibson_ » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:17 am

Oh, you knew she was a runaway from the beginning? Why didn't you tell your closest ranger about that?

And if you really believe that it is illegal, take off. Obviously if what they're doing is illegal, there won't be any problems for you. It's not like gate is standing out at the end of the strip with a fucking cannon and is going to shoot you down.

then there is no community to speak of participating in - no community of any integrity, that is.


Obviously. Burning Man was all just a giant hallucinatory circle jerk that actually happened in a hotel in Tonopah.

Duh.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ZaphodBurner » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:27 am

As a a flight instructor I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that the FAA can shut down airports which are on public land pretty much at will. They do it anytime there is an accident or incident on the field, and anytime the President comes to town.

I too think it's unneccessary and uncalled-for to restrict people from leaving but, if it's illegal I would like to know under which law. It's also illegal to bring drugs onto the playa or to exceed 5mph but this doesn't appear to matter to the general population, particularly during Exodus when we were indicating 10 mph and getting passed by everybody on both sides.

Now that we all know how it works it's a good time for you to decide whether you're going to go next year.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby bunnyalert » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:34 am

gibson_ wrote:Oh, you knew she was a runaway from the beginning? Why didn't you tell your closest ranger about that?

You really should read the full thread before posting. It was reported by CBS News on the same day she was reported missing, that she stormed off because someone in camp was playing loud music and she was trying to sleep. BMorg and law enforcement knew this at the time.
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gibson_ wrote:It's not like gate is standing out at the end of the strip with a fucking cannon and is going to shoot you down.

Again, if you read the thread fully you'd know that I'm not the pilot. But whatever. If anyone was to leave by any other exit aside from the gate, they would have been promptly arrested as suspected child abductors.

gibson_ wrote:Burning Man was all just a giant hallucinatory circle jerk

I think you're catching on.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby bunnyalert » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:49 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:the FAA can shut down airports which are on public land pretty much at will.

But BMorg reps and law enforcement are not the FAA. I sincerely doubt anyone got on the phone to contact the FAA to get permission to close the airport in this non-emergency situation.

ZaphodBurner wrote:if it's illegal I would like to know under which law.

It's a felony to falsely imprison someone. Without a crime, there was no suspect. And so no reason to detain anyone on suspicion of a criminal act. Everyone who attempted to leave the event but was threatened with arrest and/or physically blocked, are victims of false imprisonment in this case.

ZaphodBurner wrote:It's also illegal to bring drugs onto the playa or to exceed 5mph but this doesn't appear to matter to the general population, particularly during Exodus when we were indicating 10 mph and getting passed by everybody on both sides.

These are simply misdemeanors and infractions, not felonies (except in the case of intent to distribute drugs) or violations of civil liberties .
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby littleflower » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:54 am

lol ...... jeez bunny, who are you? you seem a little self-important ........

how long were you detained, 2 hours? in the case of a missing child? poor baby.

you aren't convincing anyone, you know ..... but keep at it. obviously, you're getting out some of that angst.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby bunnyalert » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:05 am

littleflower wrote:lol ...... jeez bunny, who are you? you seem a little self-important ........

Self important? I am text on a screen to you.

I wasn't even at the gate on Friday.

But it is surprising how difficult it is to discuss this here. I think maybe you're all holding on a little too tightly to thing thing in the desert. It is clearly clouding your perspective on how important your rights as individuals are (and the rights of those around you). Because what I see here is a sad lack of interest, and even a perverse welcoming of these violations.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby skippy3k » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:21 am

I'm curious, Bunny...do you have kids, if you don't mind me asking?
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Mosin » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:53 am

gibson_ wrote:That said, we're a community, and when our community loses somebody, our community stops what they're doing until that person is found.


Edited for accuracy: That said, we're a community, and when someone in our community who decided to bring their kid/s loses track of their kid/s, our entire community must stop what they're doing and relinquish their freedom until that child is found.

Face it, the only thing out on the playa that can put the brakes on the event is Little Precious. Equipment and art can burn or be stolen, adults can go missing for days at a time, and you will be promptly directed to the back of your ticket. Someone's -18 y.o. child goes missing and suddenly There IS Team in Fuck You. Mandatory Team. Team Search Your Car and Plane and Taint. Big Team.

We have hashed and rehashed the "Kids on the Playa" issue many times before, so my intent is not to derail this thread on the misuse of the Amber Alert system by digressing into that severely flogged horse, but rather to call bullshit on the inane overgrneralization Gibson offered in response to good questions and IMHO appropriate outrage.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Mosin » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:00 pm

littleflower wrote:lol ...... jeez bunny, who are you? you seem a little self-important ........

how long were you detained, 2 hours? in the case of a missing child? poor baby.

you aren't convincing anyone, you know ..... but keep at it. obviously, you're getting out some of that angst.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Bob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:06 pm

Kind of curious what this trolling expedition is really about.

And kind of not.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Mosin » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:08 pm

Bob wrote:Kind of curious what this trolling expedition is really about.

And kind of not.


In other words, if people do not agree with Bob or fear his unnecessary and childish employment of physical threats they are trolls.

Again, have a nice day, Dad. :)
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby littleflower » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:16 pm

Actually, i agree that it was overdone .... check the vehicle and let people go. i agree that some over-important BLM jerk should not have threatened anyone with his taser. shit happens.

but the hyperbole of the OP is absurd. Endangering children? Ruby Ridge? False imprisonment? Lawsuits? c'mon .....

Sounds like a troll to me too.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Bob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:18 pm

Rhetorical device? Heard of them?

Only the Queen of England is constitutionally empowered to actually punch you in the pants.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby peyote2004 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:35 pm

skippy3k wrote:I'm curious, Bunny...do you have kids, if you don't mind me asking?


I'm curious too ...
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Bob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:40 pm

Are you counting sock puppets?
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby gibson_ » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:02 pm

Guys, lets keep this on topic.

Burning Man forums are now for Cialis and NFL discussions ONLY.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby delle » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:33 pm

gibson_ wrote:Guys, lets keep this on topic.

Burning Man forums are now for Cialis and NFL discussions ONLY.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

My probably unpopular take on this:

She was a 15yr old who tantrum'd off. No abduction. A city-wide call for help would have been sufficient. I can't think of a community that would have been more cooperative. Search, yes. Detain, no. It was overkill to call it an Amber Alert. (no other city would have -- the very first criteria of an Amber alert is "Law enforcement must confirm that an abduction has taken place.")

I have this niggling feeling that she's not the first 15 yr old to do this.... but perhaps mummy's aunt the "famous" reporter had something to do with the severity of the measures taken.

And THAT I have a problem with.


Now, I wasn't in this girl's pocket during her little escapade so can't know how she fared - before, during or after. Hopefully no harm came to her. That said, if it turns out she was just out on a long joy-ride, she should be made to personally make reparations to the community she's inconvenienced. Not her parents. Her. Not monetary -- but something real and meaningful. How? I don't know.... Just seems wrong for her to not have some real consequences.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby skippy3k » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:55 pm

delle wrote:That said, if it turns out she was just out on a long joy-ride, she should be made to personally make reparations to the community she's inconvenienced. Not her parents. Her. Not monetary -- but something real and meaningful. How? I don't know.... Just seems wrong for her to not have some real consequences.


She could be made to clean the porta-potties on the 9 o'clock side of the man at 3am on Friday night. Good lord, those were bad.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Mosin » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:00 pm

delle wrote:
gibson_ wrote:Guys, lets keep this on topic.

Burning Man forums are now for Cialis and NFL discussions ONLY.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

My probably unpopular take on this:

She was a 15yr old who tantrum'd off. No abduction. A city-wide call for help would have been sufficient. I can't think of a community that would have been more cooperative. Search, yes. Detain, no. It was overkill to call it an Amber Alert. (no other city would have -- the very first criteria of an Amber alert is "Law enforcement must confirm that an abduction has taken place.")

I have this niggling feeling that she's not the first 15 yr old to do this.... but perhaps mummy's aunt the "famous" reporter had something to do with the severity of the measures taken.

And THAT I have a problem with.


Now, I wasn't in this girl's pocket during her little escapade so can't know how she fared - before, during or after. Hopefully no harm came to her. That said, if it turns out she was just out on a long joy-ride, she should be made to personally make reparations to the community she's inconvenienced. Not her parents. Her. Not monetary -- but something real and meaningful. How? I don't know.... Just seems wrong for her to not have some real consequences.


You just opened yourself up to that oh-so damning smartypants rhetorical question regarding your status as a parent. You see, only parents should be able to share opinions on the misuse of the Amber Alert system at BM. Better quit now troll, else Dad is likely going to threaten to punch you with his sock puppet... as apparently authorized by the Queen of England. :lol:
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby delle » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:06 pm

Ah, but Mosin, I do speak as a parent.

And you could use a little maturity your own self, seems to me.

Sorry.

However low you think someone's coming from, it's never a winning combination for you to slide on down there yourself.... And I say that without taking sides. It's just good common sense.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Mosin » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:22 pm

delle wrote:Ah, but Mosin, I do speak as a parent.

And you could use a little maturity your own self, seems to me.

Sorry.

However low you think someone's coming from, it's never a winning combination for you to slide on down there yourself.... And I say that without taking sides. It's just good common sense.


Well said Delle. You are no doubt correct on all accounts. Sometimes I just can't help myself... bullshit makes me angry, and irrelevant/obfuscatory paternalistic comments/rhetorical questions in support of bullshit particularly piss me off. Still, I do need to grow up and refuse to play on the slide, as you point out.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby ZaphodBurner » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:25 pm

bunnyalert wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote:the FAA can shut down airports which are on public land pretty much at will.

But BMorg reps and law enforcement are not the FAA. I sincerely doubt anyone got on the phone to contact the FAA to get permission to close the airport in this non-emergency situation.


The FAA is quite frequently on premises, and that wasn't the point of your original comment anyway. I have a copy of the 2012 federal aviation regs right here on my iPad because I teach them. The FAA or authorized private or civilian management can close a runway to operations pretty much whenever they want. They can simply deny you authorization to use it.

bunnyalert wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote:if it's illegal I would like to know under which law.

It's a felony to falsely imprison someone.


That doesn't answer the question. Do you know much about the history of Tule Lake? You weren't "imprisoned," you were stuck at Burning Man for a few hours. Poor thing! Declaring something a felony doesn't necessarily make it so.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby skippy3k » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:27 pm

Mosin wrote:You just opened yourself up to that oh-so damning smartypants rhetorical question regarding your status as a parent. You see, only parents should be able to share opinions on the misuse of the Amber Alert system at BM.


Wow, someone is touchy with the whole "parent" question. Just to head you off (and to show how your jumps to conclusions are ill-advised and make you look silly) I am a parent AND I do not believe the Amber Alert should have been used....assuming it was known at the time she stormed out of camp in a huff. So guess what, we sort of agree....shocking. But I'm sure other parents will disagree with me and you know what? I can see their point in being over cautious when it comes to kids. That is where you and I differ Mosin; I can actually see both sides of an issue even though I don't agree. Maybe that is just the maturity that Delle points out.

But then again, I haven't met you in person, so maybe you aren't that big of an ass as you appear online.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Bob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:30 pm

delle wrote:My probably unpopular take on this:

She was a 15yr old who tantrum'd off. No abduction. A city-wide call for help would have been sufficient. I can't think of a community that would have been more cooperative. Search, yes. Detain, no. It was overkill to call it an Amber Alert. (no other city would have -- the very first criteria of an Amber alert is "Law enforcement must confirm that an abduction has taken place.")

I have this niggling feeling that she's not the first 15 yr old to do this.... but perhaps mummy's aunt the "famous" reporter had something to do with the severity of the measures taken.

And THAT I have a problem with.

Now, I wasn't in this girl's pocket during her little escapade so can't know how she fared - before, during or after. Hopefully no harm came to her. That said, if it turns out she was just out on a long joy-ride, she should be made to personally make reparations to the community she's inconvenienced. Not her parents. Her. Not monetary -- but something real and meaningful. How? I don't know.... Just seems wrong for her to not have some real consequences.


I'd say you're overreaching a bit, but it's possible that these are the kids who end up either as Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, or DPW, or sometimes both. Not that I have any more knowledge of her personality, ambitions or family situation than you do. Currently, all we have is the org's terse statement on the incident, a couple of sock puppets stirring things up for whatever purpose on the eplaya, and the usual gang of armchair mayors of Black Rock City.

In any case, the Survival Guide warns parents about taking appropriate care else they risk eviction, as well warning everybody about measures that might be taken if a child goes missing.

Stuff happened, it was dealt with, and so far I haven't seen any evidence of actionable harm.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Mosin » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:39 pm

skippy3k wrote:
But then again, I haven't met you in person, so maybe you aren't that big of an ass as you appear online.


I'm done with the slide Skippy, but I do appreciate your mature and relevant insights into this issue.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby delle » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:32 pm

Bob wrote:Stuff happened, it was dealt with, and so far I haven't seen any evidence of actionable harm.


This is where we differ.... "Actionable" being a big word I'm going to take out of context for just a bit.

I believe there should be action. Absolutely.

Sounds like this child needs to grow up, and it sounds like her parents could use the help of a consequence coming from other than themselves. (a child doesn't pull shit like this if there's even a modicum of respect. How long was she missing for???)

I think the community deserves acknowledgement, at the very least, for what was -- whether you care to admit it or not -- a real inconvenience to some, and a worry to way more.

An airport was locked down. Roads were closed. So deeming it one more prank to be swept under the carpet of the enabling bus with a "oh, well, no harm done" just doesn't sit right with me.

I think it is actionable (in my way), and I believe the action should come from her.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby Bob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:19 pm

Again, I think some people are making assumptions and drawing conclusions based on the manufactured outrage of a couple of sock puppets who've suddenly popped up on the eplaya with an obscure agenda, and loose interpretations of what happened in the parents' camp based on scant information from the org and the press.

But pardon the interruption, and back to our regularly scheduled post-playa public pillorying.
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Re: AMBER Alert abuse

Postby unjonharley » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:39 pm

onzilla wrote:We need a SPECIFIC NAME OF THE PERSON WHO INSTIGATED THIS FORM OF MARTIAL LAW.

Anyone?

All of our rights were violated.

A ACLU contact for burning man?


Yup! You just jump right on a federal. With the yelling and temper you have shown on this list maybe your mental health and your lic. should be looked at..Flying with that kind of temper is not very safe for others..

Now that you have found how BM works. And you don't like it.. Your wasting your time on this board.. Seeing how you will not be attending again..
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