Should Camp Finances be Public?

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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:07 pm

This is your third burn and you really don't know all this?
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby BBadger » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:50 pm

I wouldn't worry about the total amount of funds being raked in by the camp, but whether or not what you pay for camp dues is worth it to you (apply this to all business transactions). Is it worth paying $50 a person to use the camp amenities? $100? $300? If it's too expensive, vote with your feet.

While open budgets are nice, sometimes it gets to be a pain having to explain that the cost of running an operation is not always reflected in the price of goods, but also time, services, etc. Some people will also balk when the estimated cost of labor is revealed, thinking that it is overpriced, or that they could do better (but won't). Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Again, vote with your feet if it is too much.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby JovReef » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:59 pm

Maybe you mis-read the threat, the "I'll take care of you later" really meant "hey we have not finished spending, we can show you how much we spent after the burn but we are super busy right now prepping for you to have an awesome time stress free." and not "I'll beat your ass if you dont relent"

I'll echo what others have said about looking at what you are getting for what you spent. If you think about it, a VERY cheap meal plan would run $5 per meal. 3 meals a day x 7 days there is $105 in food alone. That does not include alcohol or shade or anything else that may have been included in your camp dues.

I am going to randomly assume from your post that there are 100 people in your camp and dues are $150. Feeding 100 people VERY cheap would leave the camp with $4,500 to build a shade structure for 100 people and alcohol and other extra things. A vehicle rental to transport a shade structure large enough for all these people is going to run them over $1500 easy. Knocking their budget for actual supplies and booze down to $3,000 max.

They could have the shade structure from previous years and not need to spend a lot on improvements/upkeep but they still have to store that somewhere when not on the playa and I'm sure they are paying for that. Things really add up. $15,000 is not a lot for a good theme camp to bring in.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:56 pm

Has anyone heard anything called PRINCIPLES??? Burning Man is supposed to be a week long cultural and art filled event based on a non monetary economy i.e. - people sharing and helping other people. The antithetical to the dog eat dog corporate america. So WHY do so many Yahoos on here suggest it's okay not ONLY to engage in corporate activities but to do so in the worst kind of ways (in secret).

I dont see how anyone can say Burning Man retains any of those PRINCIPLES (anti corporate, non monetary and notprofit motivated, a people first gathering) when shady dealings are not only permitted but almost encouraged.I think it's hard to say BM is any more than a giant rave in the desert with a lot of art thrown in. In that case I would agree with everyone, I have no interest knowing how much money xyz performer earns and such information is irrelevant.

The hypocrisy on this board, in my camp, and at Burning Man is astounding!

And to the person who said it's MY fault for not discovering this information before hand they are right, it is my fault to believe the "popular culture" and trust that people are not such hypocrits. As a giant for profit (at EVERY LEVEL) RAVE Burning Man is probably a fun event but as far as this notion of selflessness and anti corporate culture goes, that has to be the biggest bunch of B.S. I've heard in a long time.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby danibel » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:01 pm

Don't go.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:06 pm

I don't know what your going on about.

Being RADICALY SELF RELIANT means I don't see any of the shit you are talking about. :roll:
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby Kinetik V » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:08 pm

danibel wrote:Don't go.


Amen.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby Jackass » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:08 pm

Camp on your own...dildo.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:16 pm

And thats the best answer everyone has? Don't go? How many brain cells did that response take?

How about getting my $$$ back from corrupt camp imbiciles (even if I have to call my credit card company) and then going to BM and having a blast. But not under the pretext that BM is some sort of Anti Corporate counter culture movement/festival but rather more akin to a corporate sponsored rave with art mixed in.

I have no problem with people making money, BUT don't say you're something you're not.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby CrispyDave » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:23 am

dontflipmejack wrote:And thats the best answer everyone has? Don't go? How many brain cells did that response take?

How about getting my $$$ back from corrupt camp imbiciles (even if I have to call my credit card company) and then going to BM and having a blast. But not under the pretext that BM is some sort of Anti Corporate counter culture movement/festival but rather more akin to a corporate sponsored rave with art mixed in.

I have no problem with people making money, BUT don't say you're something you're not.


Your best bet would be to get your money back and then use that money to outfit yourself. I am sure you can buy everything you will need for 8 days on the Playa......
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby Kinetik V » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:14 am

If you don't like something, ask why it is the way it is.
If you don't like the answer see what influence you have to change it and try to do so.
If you can't change it find a way to accept it for what it is and then get the fuck over it and move on.
(And yes that last one is a bitch...but it can be done)

If you're calling the people you're proposing to stay with imbeciles before you even step foot on the playa, quite frankly your mindset is already fucked, and your fucked attitude has the potential to ruin the burn for anyone camping by you. One of the unwritten rules of Burning Man is: Don't fuck up someone else's burn. So in this case with your Fuck Up potential being sky high because you've got an attitude from hell, saying to stay home is some of the best advice seasoned Burning Man participants can give you.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby danibel » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:31 am

Kinetic V wrote:If you're calling the people you're proposing to stay with imbeciles before you even step foot on the playa, quite frankly your mindset is already fucked, and your fucked attitude has the potential to ruin the burn for anyone camping by you. One of the unwritten rules of Burning Man is: Don't fuck up someone else's burn. So in this case with your Fuck Up potential being sky high because you've got an attitude from hell, saying to stay home is some of the best advice seasoned Burning Man participants can give you.



Amen.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:35 pm

All I'm saying is the hypocrisy bother me - that's all.

have a great burn everyone
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby swampdog » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:21 pm

The only hypocrisy is that it takes a lot of money to do this "nonmonetary" thing in the desert. That's BMan's dirty not-so-secret. You should have seen the Reno Wal-Mart last night. Full to overflowing with "non-commercialism". It's an artificiality that lets the event be what it is.

How you arrange to support yourself at Bman - camp, food, survival, as well as art, sharing, other projects is UP TO YOU. If you choose to collaborate with some others, it's UP TO YOU.

What exactly is it you expect of me? You seem to want others to fix your problem. Until now, you didn't even seem clear that you had a problem, just a suspicion.

Out of 55,000 or however many participants are out there this year there are probably 25,000 agreements of various degrees of formality about how people camping together are going to share costs and resources. The agreements range from something like "I'll buy the beer and you bring the tent" to "give us $500 and you'll have shade, food, showers, and a bar" I believe it is probably damned near impossible to create any sort of standard that's useful and meaningful to prevent the occasional ripoff without creating an unholy amount of bureaucracy. Most of these agreements are based on trust. Don't give money to people you don't trust. If you can't trust them, get in writing. If you can't trust them and they won't put it in writing, maybe you should look for someone else to camp with.

Did you just want some sympathy? "awww, dude, you may have gotten ripped off. That sucks" Feel better?

For the record, you sound like a whiny bitch. You sound like you're the one who's looking for a commercial experience. You haven't said anything about your contribution to your camp besides money. If YOU are just looking to come observe a big-ass party in the desert with some cool art, well, pay up and shut up.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby wh..sh » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:34 pm

swampdog, I lovez you!
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby Bob » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:59 pm

A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late.

Thomas Tusser, Five Hundreth Pointes of Good Husbandrie, 1573.


Proving they had autocorrect in the 16th C.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:43 pm

swampdog wrote:The only hypocrisy is that it takes a lot of money to do this "nonmonetary" thing in the desert. That's BMan's dirty not-so-secret. You should have seen the Reno Wal-Mart last night. Full to overflowing with "non-commercialism". It's an artificiality that lets the event be what it is.

How you arrange to support yourself at Bman - camp, food, survival, as well as art, sharing, other projects is UP TO YOU. If you choose to collaborate with some others, it's UP TO YOU.

What exactly is it you expect of me? You seem to want others to fix your problem. Until now, you didn't even seem clear that you had a problem, just a suspicion.

Out of 55,000 or however many participants are out there this year there are probably 25,000 agreements of various degrees of formality about how people camping together are going to share costs and resources. The agreements range from something like "I'll buy the beer and you bring the tent" to "give us $500 and you'll have shade, food, showers, and a bar" I believe it is probably damned near impossible to create any sort of standard that's useful and meaningful to prevent the occasional ripoff without creating an unholy amount of bureaucracy. Most of these agreements are based on trust. Don't give money to people you don't trust. If you can't trust them, get in writing. If you can't trust them and they won't put it in writing, maybe you should look for someone else to camp with.

Did you just want some sympathy? "awww, dude, you may have gotten ripped off. That sucks" Feel better?

For the record, you sound like a whiny bitch. You sound like you're the one who's looking for a commercial experience. You haven't said anything about your contribution to your camp besides money. If YOU are just looking to come observe a big-ass party in the desert with some cool art, well, pay up and shut up.



It sure is funny how I'm getting all these personal attacks just for pointing out the hypocracy of a **few** burners. And why is it asking so much for other burners to adhere to the BM ethic of a gifting economy or at the very least not trying to make a killing $$$ wise??? And no I'm not talking about what Larry Harvey or the upper management does.

Anyway, I ended up staying with my camp for part of the burn and that was a big mistake (I know, I made the decision). What really got to me was when I found out the camp leader **probably** rented TWO 45ft RV's with camp money and only the camp leader and his minions were allowed the privlege to use them. Their explanation was they needed the larger diesel RV's to tow the trailers with - which is basically crap. At fist some other people were a little pissed but the "sound system" and full bar filled with the CHEAPEST liquor seemed to placate most.

Just knowing a few scumbags took advantage and were living the high life that they otherwise couldn't afford left a bad taste in my mouth. No I didn't let it ruin my burn but I had to leave camp early, apparently the minions thought I was a "trouble maker" just for asking questions. Oh yeah, their explanation changed like 3 or 4 times, it went from we needed the diesel RV to tow trailers, then to we DESERVE plush accomadations for OUR work to they paid out of their own pockets......BUT dont even THINK about asking to see the budget. I think it's gone beyond corporate to being more like dictatorship/mob rule
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:55 pm

dontflipmejack wrote:
swampdog wrote:The only hypocrisy is that it takes a lot of money to do this "nonmonetary" thing in the desert. That's BMan's dirty not-so-secret. You should have seen the Reno Wal-Mart last night. Full to overflowing with "non-commercialism". It's an artificiality that lets the event be what it is.

How you arrange to support yourself at Bman - camp, food, survival, as well as art, sharing, other projects is UP TO YOU. If you choose to collaborate with some others, it's UP TO YOU.

What exactly is it you expect of me? You seem to want others to fix your problem. Until now, you didn't even seem clear that you had a problem, just a suspicion.

Out of 55,000 or however many participants are out there this year there are probably 25,000 agreements of various degrees of formality about how people camping together are going to share costs and resources. The agreements range from something like "I'll buy the beer and you bring the tent" to "give us $500 and you'll have shade, food, showers, and a bar" I believe it is probably damned near impossible to create any sort of standard that's useful and meaningful to prevent the occasional ripoff without creating an unholy amount of bureaucracy. Most of these agreements are based on trust. Don't give money to people you don't trust. If you can't trust them, get in writing. If you can't trust them and they won't put it in writing, maybe you should look for someone else to camp with.

Did you just want some sympathy? "awww, dude, you may have gotten ripped off. That sucks" Feel better?

For the record, you sound like a whiny bitch. You sound like you're the one who's looking for a commercial experience. You haven't said anything about your contribution to your camp besides money. If YOU are just looking to come observe a big-ass party in the desert with some cool art, well, pay up and shut up.



It sure is funny how I'm getting all these personal attacks just for pointing out the hypocracy of a **few** burners. And why is it asking so much for other burners to adhere to the BM ethic of a gifting economy/NOT FOR PROFIT or at the very least not trying to make a killing $$$ wise??? And no I'm not talking about what Larry Harvey or the upper management does.

Anyway, I ended up staying with my camp for part of the burn and that was a big mistake (I know, I made the decision). What really got to me was when I found out the camp leader **probably** rented TWO 45ft RV's with camp money and only the camp leader and his minions were allowed the privlege to use them. Their explanation was they needed the larger diesel RV's to tow the trailers with - which is basically crap. At fist some other people were a little pissed but the "sound system" and full bar filled with the CHEAPEST liquor seemed to placate most.

Just knowing a few scumbags took advantage and were living the high life that they otherwise couldn't afford left a bad taste in my mouth. No I didn't let it ruin my burn but I had to leave camp early, apparently the minions thought I was a "trouble maker" just for asking questions. Oh yeah, their explanation changed like 3 or 4 times, it went from we needed the diesel RV to tow trailers, then to we DESERVE plush accomadations for OUR work to they paid out of their own pockets......BUT dont even THINK about asking to see the budget. I think it's gone beyond corporate to being more like dictatorship/mob rule
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:14 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention some of the camp perks for this year. After working a full shift at the bar serving cheap @ss mccormick vodka and other cut rate liquor I was offered a pint of ben and Jerry's icecream - apparently the thoughtful camp leader and his counsel filled their freezers with B&J. Instead I asked for a hot shower in ONE of the $200k ++ RV's (each had 2 full bathrooms) and was told it would be UNFAIR to the other campers and that I should work harder being a TEAM player.....

I'm in the process of getting my $150 dues back by way of filing a complaint with my credit card company as the ROBBER BARRONS didn't want to return my money.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby skippy3k » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:45 pm

dontflipmejack wrote: What really got to me was when I found out the camp leader **probably** rented TWO 45ft RV's with camp money and only the camp leader and his minions were allowed the privlege to use them. Their explanation was they needed the larger diesel RV's to tow the trailers with - which is basically crap. At fist some other people were a little pissed but the "sound system" and full bar filled with the CHEAPEST liquor seemed to placate most.


I have a sneaking suspicion there is more to the story here.

dontflipmejack wrote:No I didn't let it ruin my burn but I had to leave camp early, apparently the minions thought I was a "trouble maker" just for asking questions.


A show of hands from everyone who saw this coming?
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby CarrieSnarf » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:22 pm

I'm in the process of getting my $150 dues back by way of filing a complaint with my credit card company as the ROBBER BARRONS didn't want to return my money.


Oh for the love of christ it's $150 dollars. In the scope of what you probably spent on fucking blinky shit alone I can't really get upset for you. If you think your $150 bucks even paid for one trip to the gas station to haul that sound station and bar to the playa, you are sorely sorely mistaken. And I don't think that camp owner owed you one minute of a shower in his/her RV. Quite frankly between paying for the RV, cleaning, gas, greywater disposal, etc an RV shower is a fucking expensive deal. You pay for the privileged, and its a lot more than $150 bucks. Were you going to dump their greywater afterward at $60/pop? or give them the several gallons of water your shower used? Or scrub the playa dust out of that shower?

I paid dues to a moderately sized camp my first year- I was disappointed with what I got for my money, so I set up my own moderately sized camp this year for a dozen friends. Believe you me I came out better financially the first year when I paid $80 and had a shower, a kitchen, greywater disposal, a shade structure and a spot on the esplanade. However, I enjoyed myself so much more this year. Turns out self reliance and building it from the ground up actually make it fun for me. Clearly camping with these people didn't sit right with you for other reasons- so don't do it again. You think you can do better with the money- put your money and your time where your mouth is.

I think you did get an answer about where the money went- this many boxes of booze, etc etc. And even if in the end your camp leader MAYBE made enough money to pay for his own ticket and 1/2 of his supplies- which I think is SORELY unlikely- until you plan a camp like that you have NO idea how much work goes in to it. Why shouldn't he get some benefit from that?

You whining about working one "full" shift at a bar doesn't really make me want to ever camp with you. Serving food to people at Burning Man is easily one of the most interactive enjoyable things I did with my burn this year. You choose to look at that gift as a chore. How sad for you. I would happily go back and serve another 1000 people grilled cheese sandwiches in the dusty hot sun and all of my campmates would say the same. If someone doesn't want to participate on that level, I would question what they are bringing to the burn to make it a better more awesome place. You think those art structures? that awesome LED costume? that bar? etc was built in one 6 hour shift for $150. Dream on.

In the end- should camp finances be open- I don't think they should be secret, but I'm not going to spend 10 hours making you a fucking powerpoint presentation. I'm too busy building another awesome thing for that.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby CornMan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:44 pm

I really thought the issue on hand concerned a sizable contribution of at least $300. I'd pay $150 to join a camp just to see where it takes me. This year, we organized our camp's budget on facebook via a vote. Members could put things they thought our camp needed on the ballot, and we funded the items that got the most votes. I announced each item we got with a picture and the money spent on it not so much for accounting purposes, but to get members excited about the stuff our camp would have.

Image

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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:59 pm

If you think your $150 bucks even paid for one trip to the gas station to haul that sound station and bar to the playa, you are sorely sorely mistaken.


Everyone seems to be missing the point (on purpose perhaps?). The dues MIGHT only be $150 but we had about 120-130 campers this year (they couldn't even tell me the exact #) so thats about $18,000-$20,000 in dues. Almost all the equipment was from last year, and even assuming wear and tear MAYBE $2-3k went to buying new equipment/tents/electronics ect and another $1500 for cheap liquor and maybe $500 for ice and some snacks (chips, peanuts, and some fruit) and of course all that gasoline to keep that ben and jerrys cold.

This isn't like a few cases of liquor are unaccounted for. We're talking $10k +++ missing and I know where it went. Two 45 RV's probably $3k each for a week or more (guessing) just to pull 2 trailers.They rationalized that it was about the same as 2 rental trucks - yeah right. Not to mention all the other perks, the "in" people were eating like kings (steaks, seafood, ribs) while the OTHER people were eating from a can mid week.

i dont mind rewarding people for their work, BUT when my reward is some cheap Vodka/wine and maybe a carton of Ben and Jerry's and the "in" crowd gets a comfy bed in an air conditioned Coach (not even a RV, these were like what rock stars travel in) and good food/ hot showers, ect ect.

Maybe instead of ripping off the camp, the "Coach" monies could have went to buying EVERYONE good food, HOT SHOWERS, better liquor, ect ect
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby CarrieSnarf » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:16 pm

Almost all the equipment was from last year, and even assuming wear and tear MAYBE $2-3k went to buying new equipment/tents/electronics ect and another $1500 for cheap liquor and maybe $500 for ice and some snacks (chips, peanuts, and some fruit) and of course all that gasoline to keep that ben and jerrys cold.


I think you are missing the point(s). Let me diagram it for you.
1) You paid for an experience, not a portion of a timeshare to which you now have ownership. That camp fee is totally inline with other similar sized camps with similar amenities. That's the market. I would say that dollar for dollar, you got a decent deal.
2) Your math is not based on actual experience of maintaining a camp that size, and you seem to be wildly underestimating. I spent easily $1000.00 on food, ice and booze for 12 people, and I wasn't the only person buying it. Your guestimate of $2000 to pay for the same for 130 people seems to be based off a general pissed off attitude about that camp, not any real numbers. Here are some real numbers: I made burritos for my camp (6 different varieties. 3 breakfast burritos, beef stew wraps, chicken tikka masala wraps and pork mexi burritos). I made 130 of them. Bought stuff from costco. Slaved on my own. Decent food, good ingredients, but certainly not gourmet. The cost was $3/burrito in the end. If I had skimped a bit more on ingredients, I could have gotten it to $2. 130 people x 3 meals a day x $3 bucks each: that's $1170 PER DAY without any thought of labor or transport. You could only do two meals a day, which I did, and shave some money off- but still WAY over your thought of how much this stuff costs. Hot showers for 120 people? "Good" food?! Those things are way more than the budget you have proposed. Don't even get me started on your guestimates of RV and towing fees. So far off base that it's laughable.
3) You whining about a gift (the ice cream), demanding something you didn't pay for because you feel like you deserve it (the shower) and whining about the bar shift like it was hard word and not you contributing to the public experience will never gain you sympathy with this bunch.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:19 pm

20,000 dollars is about a half-time to full-time job for one person. Not a lot of money in real terms. If you don't think that it's at least a quarter-time job to put together a camp, then you are naive. Maybe someone could post a camp budget for us, so that we at least have something before us than vague figures that you or the rest of us make up.

And $150 is not a lot of money. How much did you pay for your ticket? And did you really go with these people two years running? The theme camp forum has dozens of threads, and I don't know how many are on the list on the main site. Maybe you should look for a better fit. Obviously, you're not getting value for money, as you define it. Fuck, I had to take a sponge bath in the Sands last night, making this my first real chance for a shower in almost two weeks. The trickster gods bless baby wipes.
I spent more than you, when I add my dues and incidentals. I had a fan-fucking-tastic time. I also learned something about what the camp lead really put in, and I got a bargain.

Chalk up the 150 to experience and spend a few months thinking about what you want from a camp and then find or create a camp that gives you that.

And as for the "hypocrasy'' of using money to create burningman, it can't be done. If your campleads were growing veggies in the desert to feed you and your campmates, then you can bet it would cost more than $150.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby Eric » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:50 pm

Dontflipme: next year camp solo. See what it costs you, seriously. While I've never joined a camp with dues (and, personally, probably never will), I know what people put into it & how much things cost.

My food for the week cost me about $120. It was crap food - dehydrated soups, chips & salsa, lots of power bars, a fridge burrito a day, pickles (lots of pickles), a couple handles of booze & a bottle of Makers Mark, some mixers, but nothing fancy. That was just for me, and just for the most basic food & booze. For that "quality" of food it would have cost your camp of 120 campers $14,400 for the week. That's almost ALL of the dues your complaining about - doesn't include a public bar, a sound system, RV costs, showers, anything else - and trust me, by your posts you would have bitched your ass off at the quality I was eating.

Basically, you're whinging to the wrong crowd & you really need to experience for yourself what it costs to put a camp together. Honestly, if I had been your camp I would have given you your money back and told you to get lost before we even got to the event. You sound way to Sparkle-pony to survive reality.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby gyre » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:15 pm

How can so many of you be missing the point?

You aren't supposed to be paying for an experience, but being part of a camp, however small.

If anyone was shifty about simple questions, I'd bail out.

Everyone knows costs can vary a lot, and some camps pay for the flash from dues.
Shouldn't be hard to get simple answers though.

I've never had a problem like this, but I've asked other people how their camps worked and no one ever had a problem answering questions, even though they had no obligation to tell me anything.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:43 pm

Eric wrote:Dontflipme: next year camp solo. See what it costs you, seriously. While I've never joined a camp with dues (and, personally, probably never will), I know what people put into it & how much things cost.

My food for the week cost me about $120. It was crap food - dehydrated soups, chips & salsa, lots of power bars, a fridge burrito a day, pickles (lots of pickles), a couple handles of booze & a bottle of Makers Mark, some mixers, but nothing fancy. That was just for me, and just for the most basic food & booze. For that "quality" of food it would have cost your camp of 120 campers $14,400 for the week. That's almost ALL of the dues your complaining about - doesn't include a public bar, a sound system, RV costs, showers, anything else - and trust me, by your posts you would have bitched your ass off at the quality I was eating.

Basically, you're whinging to the wrong crowd & you really need to experience for yourself what it costs to put a camp together. Honestly, if I had been your camp I would have given you your money back and told you to get lost before we even got to the event. You sound way to Sparkle-pony to survive reality.


Eric, you're still missing the point. The camp only provided subsistence level service - several shade structures, shower area, music (the much revered sound system), cheap booze - mccormick and some generic wine/beer, and snack foods (chips, peanuts, some fruit). The camp didn't provide ANY real food, sure there was PLENTY of booze/jungle juice BUT it was the cheapest stuff around, like $10 per handle ($20 per gallon vodka with a cheap mixer).

To get to the point, I have no doubt that after all VITAL expenses there was at least a $10,000 profit, and by vital I mean NO WE DONT NEED TWO 45FT $200K coaches to pull trailers with!! That $10,000++ could have been used for better purposes such as the GREATER GOOD, I dont think hot showers for everyone is out of the question and decent booze (mccomick is nasty stuff) but of course if you put enough mixer in it I guess it's palatable.

I'm not trying to cause trouble, the purpose of this tread is just to discover what other camps policies are??? And from the responses I getting (personal attacks, name calling, ect, ect) it appears this mob type of behavior is not only tolerated but encouraged.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby dontflipmejack » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:01 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:20,000 dollars is about a half-time to full-time job for one person. Not a lot of money in real terms. If you don't think that it's at least a quarter-time job to put together a camp, then you are naive. Maybe someone could post a camp budget for us, so that we at least have something before us than vague figures that you or the rest of us make up.


It sounds like you are the naive one. All the labor was VOLUNTEER. Most of the supplies were from the prior year. The holy grail "sound system" was on loan from a camp member and I dont think it's useful life of XX years was demished much from a week's worth of use.

Not to mention most of the stuff was bought used to begin with or was FREE (sofas, chairs, tables, ect from craigslist).

The only way I'm ever going to find out where the $$$ went is taking the camp leader to court and using the court's subpoena power to compel production of documents/answers. No I probably wont do that, but I feel like it after what happened to me on Wednesday morning (someone "mooned" me in my tent at 4am - yeah really funny but if that had happened to me camping in the back woods somewhere and I had my ccw with me, someone would have caught a .45 in their rear end)

Instead I contacted my credit card company, if they still play hard ball MAYBE court will be next? I know it's only $150 but the harassment I received just for asking questions was astounding.
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Re: Should Camp Finances be Public?

Postby jerroc » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:51 pm

I think good and sufficient advice has been given on this topic. Camp alone next time. Do better research. Cut your losses and move on. Take responsabilty for your poor choice on where to camp. It's is your money and you spent it poorly. There are plenty of good well established camps to camp with. You just made a bad fucking choice. learn from it and you might find people to be more tolerable toward you. Camps may or may not post a budget or explain where it is your money Is going. I strongly suggest checking out other camps while on the playa next year to find one that is more community organized.
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