Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

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Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Satya » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:45 pm

Hello all,

I'm from a new soundcamp on the esplanade this year. We weren''t sure we were going until very recently so now we are in a last minute scramble for power. We've been on the playa in years past, but not on the esplanade, and we've never run a system as big before - this year we need big power. We're looking for a 50kw diesel genny to run 24/7.

What are some good places to rent from near BRC?

Can anyone suggest a good on playa diesel fueling service?

Thanks!
-Satya
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby portaplaya » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:16 pm

I don't believe there is such as thing as "on-playa diesel fueling".

You could contact a generator supplier and arrange to buy the delivery driver a ticket so he can drop off and service/fuel your generator, but given the ticket situation, that will be problematic.

More common solution is to get a generator you can tow and bring drums of fuel with it. You might also want to consider if you really need to run the genny 24/7. That's around 500 gallons of fuel for the week with an average of 75% load (http://www.onsite-energy.com/rentals/g25125kw.html) That sounds expensive.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby lemur » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:04 pm

if i recall correctly the limit for fuel in a camp is 100gallons for 'oh shit the tent city is burning down' reasons
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby lemur » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:07 pm

oh ok i looked it up for yee.

dont know if its up to date:

Quantity Limit. No more than 110 gallons or two 55 gallon barrels may be stored in a camp at one time. Note: Nevada law prohibits transportation of more than 110 gallons of fuel in any vehicle without proper permitting, signage and required insurance. Arrangements can be made to have fuel delivered daily to larger generators or in barrels through independent vendors with prior arrangement. Those providing transport of fuel should read these fuel delivery and transport guidelines.

Sierra Fuels (775) 322-2111 Bently Bio-Fuels (775) 783-8038


http://www.burningman.com/installations ... orage.html

more info there..
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby portaplaya » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:30 pm

portaplaya wrote:I don't believe there is such as thing as "on-playa diesel fueling".


Learning something new about Burning Man every day. (Not really, more like once a year... :D )

Are you sure you need 50KW of power? The average home is only using 38.5 kWhr per day. And I believe that 50kW is larger than anything the Burning Man org uses for their infrastructure power.

You may want to check with existing sound camps to see if the power plan you have falls within the realm of experience they have built up over the years. Most of these camps are happy to respond via e-mail, which you can find on their websites. (Here is one: http://www.opulenttemple.org/)
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Satya » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:22 pm

Indeed there are some people who provide on playa fueling. Just curious what your experience has been like if any of you have used them?

I do have experience running power with outdoor parties and small festivals. For maximum fuel efficiency, you only want to draw power at half capacity of the generator. Our camp requires approximately 25000 watts fo power. Remember, there is a huge sound system here. So for max fuel efficiency we want a 50kw genny.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby lemur » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:35 pm

how 'huge' is the sound system?
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Rice » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:00 pm

Satya wrote:Hello all,

I'm from a new soundcamp on the esplanade this year. We weren''t sure we were going until very recently so now we are in a last minute scramble for power. We've been on the playa in years past, but not on the esplanade, and we've never run a system as big before - this year we need big power. We're looking for a 50kw diesel genny to run 24/7.

What are some good places to rent from near BRC?

Can anyone suggest a good on playa diesel fueling service?

Thanks!
-Satya

that is a butt-load of power requirements! For a system that can only be 300 watts, it seems excessive...

Oh boy, on the esplanade. It would be nice to be able to choose to experience your sound as opposed to being subjected to your sound. Remember, not everyone wants to be near a large sound system. That is why major sound camps are on the 2:00 and 10:00 . . .

Are you sure that this is ok??
SOUND POLICY
The playa is a natural amplifier and it doesn't take much to produce a large amount of sound. Bass travels multi-directionally and cannot be effectively contained with any structures. This gives "sound" as an art form an unfair advantage over other art forms. Burning Man is dedicated to radical self-expression, but it is also dedicated to creating community. This means we all must find a way to get along with our neighbors. Our past history has led us to this point where we MUST give guidelines on amplification and limit space for this sort of art.

The following four rules make up our basic sound policy:
Neighbors should talk to one another when sound becomes problem and try to resolve the issue through direct communication.
Large-scale sound installations MUST be located along the ends of our city. They may express themselves unless community complaints persist.
Within the city, a maximum power amplification of 300 watts is permitted, producing sound amplification not to exceed 90 decibels, when measured at 20 feet from the source.
Any complaints about excessive sound will become the concern of the Black Rock Rangers. Concerns about excessive sound can result in:
a) volume check and mediation between camps,
b) volume check and a final warning on complaints,
c) the disabling of equipment.

..
Large Scale Sound Art

All large-scale sound systems will be located in the Large-Scale Sound Art Zone. Like all theme camps, these camps will be encouraged to be as creative and interactive as possible. The primary rule is that all speakers MUST be turned away from greater Black Rock City toward the open playa at all times. The deadline for large-sound art installations is first-come, first-served, so when these spots are filled, no more sound systems will be permitted within Black Rock City.

http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/sound_systems/policy.html
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby lemur » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:10 pm

their facebook page says:

"Burning Man placement = 8:45 and Esplanade"

yeah uhm, i probably wouldnt want a huge 10,000watt+ sound system sitting next to me at that location, esplanade doesnt mean PLAY LOUD MUSIC
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Trishntek » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:54 pm

And here i was concerned about our 1000 Watt system getting cranked up too loud.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Satya » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:26 pm

I don't get to make the decisions, just doing some research to help out. I'll definitely express those concerns to the decision makers. Thanks for the input.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Satya » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:49 pm

Just got off the phone with our camp lead. Looks like the numbers he gave me are wrong. We're running a 1500 watt system at about half capacity. Thanks for all the concern, glad you guys brought it up so I could clarify. We're not looking to deafen any neighbors. GOtta go back to the number sand recalculate, but we'll probably only need a 15 to 20k generator.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Rice » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:00 pm

Satya wrote:Just got off the phone with our camp lead. Looks like the numbers he gave me are wrong. We're running a 1500 watt system at about half capacity. Thanks for all the concern, glad you guys brought it up so I could clarify. We're not looking to deafen any neighbors. GOtta go back to the number sand recalculate, but we'll probably only need a 15 to 20k generator.

That makes waaay more sense :) Funny how a couple zeros makes things go nuts.

Might make sense to have a couple smaller generators. Nice to have the redundancy.

It seriously dusty this year! Probably a good plan to have at least 1 camp mate who can do the routine maintenance on your generator(s).

Good luck!
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby portaplaya » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:09 pm

Satya wrote:Just got off the phone with our camp lead. Looks like the numbers he gave me are wrong. We're running a 1500 watt system at about half capacity. Thanks for all the concern, glad you guys brought it up so I could clarify. We're not looking to deafen any neighbors. GOtta go back to the number sand recalculate, but we'll probably only need a 15 to 20k generator.



Just reminding you guys, 300 watts is supposed to be the max for sound outside of the 10:00 and 2:00 sound camps. Even "half capacity" is going to get a visit from the Rangers eventually.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby some seeing eye » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:20 pm

The number you have to stay under, irregardless of the sound system amplifier watts, is 90dB SPL A scale at 20 feet from the speaker. Since you are setting up a genny and have other loads, you could invest in an inexpensive sound level meter, like the function built into this multimeter: http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-dig ... 98674.html.

It's not guaranteed to be accurate, but it will get you within range, certainly better than trying to judge 90dB by ear. If your sound system wranglers are pros, they should invest in a proper sound meter and calibrator for year round use, maybe $2-300. Also store sound meters away from extreme temps, it ruins the microphone calibration.

Why the rule? Even within the spec. your music will be heard at the man almost half a mile away at equivalent to background music level in a home.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:34 pm

A 15k - 20kW generator is still a very large machine. We can easily run our entire camp, bar, lights, sound, toys, etc on a 7kW generator and still have enough for an RV's air conditioner if necessary! It only burns about 1/2 gallon per hour.

BTW, most of the time, we run on solar/wind power. The genset is mostly for backup and times of high demand.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby portaplaya » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:39 pm

Trishntek wrote:We can easily run our entire camp, bar, lights, sound, toys, etc on a 7kW generator and still have enough for an RV's air conditioner if necessary!


I would point out that the OP is powering an Esplanade camp with sound system (and presumably lights). So the entertainment probably accounts for 2kW-3kW before you add in the camp. But yeah, they really need to start counting up some watts and figuring out their real usage.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:49 pm

You mean the Esplanade sucks more juice than other places? First it is said the big sound camps can only have big sound and now it is said they can have big sound and therefore consume more juice! I don't understand,,,
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:50 pm

You mean the Esplanade sucks more juice than other places? First it is said the big sound camps can only have big sound and now it is said they can have big sound and therefore consume more juice! I don't understand,,,
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby portaplaya » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:03 pm

Trishntek wrote:You mean the Esplanade sucks more juice than other places? First it is said the big sound camps can only have big sound and now it is said they can have big sound and therefore consume more juice! I don't understand,,,



The Esplanade has a higher expectation for lighting. That sucks more juice. 10 x 150W spots is 1.5kW after all.
They are also apparently using too much sound power for a non-sound camp placed camp, but that's still in their numbers for power usage, even if it is ill-advised. But light and sound is what I meant by "entertainment" probably accounting for 2-3kW.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:11 pm

And I'll raise you TEN - 10Watt LED spots that will do the same work for less than 10% of the consumption.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby portaplaya » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:24 pm

Trishntek wrote:And I'll raise you TEN - 10Watt LED spots that will do the same work for less than 10% of the consumption.


Sadly, these camps tend to work with gear that they already own. In the end, that's cheaper for week in the desert, even with the fuel costs I would presume.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:30 pm

I will grant that LED's are not cheap! I am surprised how robust they are and claim to last for almost a decade.

Moral of the story, pay now or pay and pay and pay.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby portaplaya » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:02 pm

Trishntek wrote:I will grant that LED's are not cheap! I am surprised how robust they are and claim to last for almost a decade.

Moral of the story, pay now or pay and pay and pay.


I still counter with "why pay again when you have already paid?" Sure, replace them with LED spots once they die, but you are creating waste by buying something you don't need yet.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby trilobyte » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:10 pm

If your sound is only a 1500 watt system, you could run your sound and dance floor lighting pretty comfortably on a Honda whisper quiet 3000 watt generator, then do another of the same model to cover all your needs in camp for quite a few campers. Runs on unleaded gas (not diesel), even has an automatic start and you can probably get an extended run tank for it (I have one on our camp's 2000 watt generator). The 'whisper quiet's no joke, you can't even tell those suckers are running from 10 feet away. I think the 3000 watt model even has an electric start (no pulling on cords).
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:12 pm

There's a choice we all have to deal with. Pay five times the price for a more efficient light bulb while losing whatever life is left in your current investment. Or maintain status quo and pay 10 times the price to fuel what you have. One man's waste is another man's savings.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:01 am

Trishntek wrote:There's a choice we all have to deal with. Pay five times the price for a more efficient light bulb while losing whatever life is left in your current investment. Or maintain status quo and pay 10 times the price to fuel what you have. One man's waste is another man's savings.


Amen.

All of camp lighting has shifted over to LED and CFL bulbs for the street lighting. All of it can run all night on a gallon of fuel in one of the Honda 2k's with enough juice left over to run a modest sound system or power other toys.

We're on a grid this year thanks to our new digs, but our power consumption will still be low thanks to planning in previous years to minimize our power consumption. All that is changing this year is the luxury of having the bus A/C's running without having to fire up the bus genny and a kitchen expansion to include a small oven.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:06 am

trilobyte wrote:If your sound is only a 1500 watt system, you could run your sound and dance floor lighting pretty comfortably on a Honda whisper quiet 3000 watt generator, then do another of the same model to cover all your needs in camp for quite a few campers. Runs on unleaded gas (not diesel), even has an automatic start and you can probably get an extended run tank for it (I have one on our camp's 2000 watt generator). The 'whisper quiet's no joke, you can't even tell those suckers are running from 10 feet away. I think the 3000 watt model even has an electric start (no pulling on cords).


Yep a couple of EU3k's should be able to handle all of that unless they are also planning on running A/C's or stuff in RV's.

Any rental yard should have these (or an equivalent) available for rent as well as small trailer gensets.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:20 am

portaplaya wrote:
Trishntek wrote:I will grant that LED's are not cheap! I am surprised how robust they are and claim to last for almost a decade.

Moral of the story, pay now or pay and pay and pay.


I still counter with "why pay again when you have already paid?" Sure, replace them with LED spots once they die, but you are creating waste by buying something you don't need yet.

It isn't neccesarily more waste to trash the old thing early. If the waste is far more in the running than in the manufacturing, then it's better to throw it away. I don't know enough about light bulbs to say, but there are all sorts of variables that could come into play.
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Re: Large Generator - Looking for Rental/Fueling advice

Postby maladroit » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:55 pm

It's also possible to not throw something away, but sell it to someone else who doesn't need to worry about power.
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