Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby graidawg » Wed May 23, 2012 12:15 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:You people should simply do what we do: We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you.


this is how i operate in the real world - the rich guys pays extra for the poor guys discount.
completely unconcerned.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed May 23, 2012 9:39 am

jkisha wrote:And the principles are pretty much like the commandments...who actually hasn't broken at least one?

expecially that one about coveting your neighbor's MOOP.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby jkisha » Wed May 23, 2012 9:50 am

graidawg wrote:
Dr. Pyro wrote:You people should simply do what we do: We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you.


this is how i operate in the real world - the rich guys pays extra for the poor guys discount.

WOW. And to think all this time I thought you guys were both Republicans! :shock:
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Dr. Pyro » Wed May 23, 2012 9:55 am

I prefer to think of myself as a Libertarian. Graidawg is just your garden variety limey.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby FeetOfClay » Wed May 23, 2012 3:26 pm

as far as raffles go, i for one was ecstatic when i came across a recent raffle offering chances to win a ticket for $10 a pop.
keep your fingers and toes crossed for me: step has not materialized (yet), so i figured why not take a shot at a raffle.

the ticket situation has already made me a compulsive-inbox-checker, why not become a compulsive gambler while i'm at it? :)

besides, even if i win nothing, at least i know i have donated to fund a playa art project :)
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby 48_love » Wed May 23, 2012 4:50 pm

I was ambivalent about entering a raffle.

But, I am not paying a crazy amount to be in it ... MUCH, MUch, much less than face value, for instance. And, I really want that art to make it out to teh Playa (I also made a separate donation and will help at work parties, etc).

Paying a fraction of the ticket price for a chance to attend something I wouldn't be able to otherwise doesn't feel like scalping. The gross revenue of a raffle isn't the same as an individual paying x amount, above and beyond face value, to participate. The procurement of the ticket is on more of an even playing field - for the most part. Because, I could buy $320 worth of tickets - even $1000 worth - and still not get the ticket. So, a raffle isn't scalping or a discrete markup where the 'highest bidder/best funded' actually does win.

My ambivalence was driven by the regretful feeling that statistics and probability has loomed so large over the ticketing process and having to engage in another round of hoping the stars align.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Stickygreen » Sat May 26, 2012 9:28 am

I know a few people who have not been lucky enough to enter STEP with a reasonable chance of getting a ticket, and a raffle is there best hope.

Plus from what i've seen from one raffle already completed, there is usually a pretty good chance of winning.
)'(
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby wraith » Tue May 29, 2012 9:22 pm

48_love wrote:Paying a fraction of the ticket price for a chance to attend something I wouldn't be able to otherwise doesn't feel like scalping. The gross revenue of a raffle isn't the same as an individual paying x amount, above and beyond face value, to participate. The procurement of the ticket is on more of an even playing field - for the most part. Because, I could buy $320 worth of tickets - even $1000 worth - and still not get the ticket. So, a raffle isn't scalping or a discrete markup where the 'highest bidder/best funded' actually does win.


It is nice that you don't have to feel like you're participating in scalping while the ticket seller pulls in multiple times the face value of the ticket, I guess?
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby gyre » Wed May 30, 2012 2:44 am

Stickygreen wrote:Plus from what i've seen from one raffle already completed, there is usually a pretty good chance of winning.

You're going to love the casinos.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Wed May 30, 2012 6:00 am

gyre wrote:
Stickygreen wrote:Plus from what i've seen from one raffle already completed, there is usually a pretty good chance of winning.

You're going to love the casinos.


You know, every casino in Reno is guaranteed to have the loosest slots in town, right? They put it right on their signs :roll:
With odds like that, the only way to lose is not to play. :wink:
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby vargaso » Wed May 30, 2012 1:26 pm

catinthefunnyhat wrote:
gyre wrote:
Stickygreen wrote:Plus from what i've seen from one raffle already completed, there is usually a pretty good chance of winning.

You're going to love the casinos.


You know, every casino in Reno is guaranteed to have the loosest slots in town, right? They put it right on their signs :roll:
With odds like that, the only way to lose is not to play. :wink:


Oh, SLOTS, it's slots. Man, I've been going to Reno for all the wrong reasons.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby BBadger » Thu May 31, 2012 1:16 am

gyre wrote:
Stickygreen wrote:Plus from what i've seen from one raffle already completed, there is usually a pretty good chance of winning.

You're going to love the casinos.


The house (the seller raffler) ALWAYS wins (profits).
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby 48_love » Thu May 31, 2012 6:54 am

wraith wrote:
It is nice that you don't have to feel like you're participating in scalping while the ticket seller pulls in multiple times the face value of the ticket, I guess?


The raffle ended. They made $1100, I think. Sure, the project made more than face value of the ticket from the raffle. But, it's not like one individual was asked to pony up a premium over face value for the right to attend. If the project was saying something to the effect: "we need to raise money, so we're selling this ticket for $1100!" that would feel like/actually be scalping.

edit: it was actually two tickets, so the premium over face value was even less. so, it doesn't feel like the end of the world ... which is nice, I guess?
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Raffleing is Evil

Postby nocturnal_steve » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:33 pm

If I understand the whole shebang correctly the Borg awarded 10,000 tickets (and maybe more to come) to established theme camps and those involved in large scale art installations in order to preserve the fabric of Burning. Now some of these camps are raffling off "extra" tickets to help fund their projects. So they were either VERY lucky in the lottery and/or awarded more tickets than they really need and now they are closing their borders to newbies they might have previously welcomed .... for $$$. Net effect is excluding people from their immediate circle for profit ... even if that profit is for a good cause !?
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Jackass » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:44 pm

It's ok, you don't have to get bent out of shape because you don't have a ticket. Harness your Qi. I have no tickets either but I'm keeping it cool 8) (kinda).
Don't worry, it'll get weird...
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby BBadger » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:30 pm

Those camps didn't even need to get lucky aside from receiving directed distribution in the first place. If anyone in the camp won more than one ticket, the spare ticket could be multi-part scalped raffled to cover costs. For example, if someone won two tickets in the lottery, and assuming the winner himself cannot receive a ticket from directed distribution, the person who would normally receive that second ticket could get a directed ticket instead, and the spare gets scalped raffled.

Now whether this whole directed distribution + raffling racket is really excluding newbies is quite debatable. I expect that most newbies asking to join a camp source their own tickets, rather than relying on directed distribution to provide one (though the latter did happen). There was also a short window in which directed distribution could be utilized. I would also be more opposed to camps using their spare tickets in order to attract people to their camp, notably to pay camp dues--another profit mechanism.

In the future, I think we'll end up seeing a lot of camps utilizing all their resources to buy as many tickets as possible just to scalp raffle tickets to pay for attending Burning Man--especially if directed distribution can guarantee tickets will be available anyway. This shit needs to stop, but unfortunately this scalping-in-raffling-clothing profiteering mechanism appears to be condoned by BMOrg.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Ano » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:47 pm

After one realizes they have donated a triple-digit sum, total, to various ticket raffles... it begins to be saddening :( But I'll press on, and I'll keep plonking down my $5s $10s and $20s, because I guess I'm supporting a good cause getting more art out there (except for one raffle, where it seemed like I was just helping a dubstep camp get their private party bus out there... but I digress), and a chance at another ticket ain't so bad, I guess... It's a weird and ugly grey area. I haven't been around long enough to form a real opinion, I guess.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby trilobyte » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:05 pm

I can confirm that the camps who have posted fundraising ticket raffles on ePlaya have not received tickets through the directed ticket distribution program.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby nocturnal_steve » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:00 pm

>WE CAN JUST RUN A PLUG N PLAY BUSINESS, SELL (tickets and include ...ns) SPOTS IN OUR CAMP..... FOR FAT WADS OF CASH...

>raffle some art.. or services, or hugs.. or concert tickets, or a blender to fund yer camp... the LLC hasnt regulated that yet

>I used to think that the art, the camps, and what they contributed to the event were personal gifts. Bought and paid for much the same as one would a Christmas gift. But now (that's all changed...ns)

All Well Said.

Raffler's suck plain and simple. Sure it's for "their art" BUT if I have to burn up money, enter/loose at multiple raffles and eventually pay a scalpers price (still weighing my personal ethical take on if I will do that) ... those are many less dollar I have in MY pocket to contribute to my local groups permitted,
interactive Mutant Vehicle, more time and mental energy I am devoting to procuring a ticket while at this time three years ago I was helping with the M.V.
buzzing along happily making give away pendents etc. etc. By the way I AM still helping with our MV whether I go or not this year (shameless self promotion).

Hey raffler's... fellow artist ... share the love. Fix the game and let me win the ticket ( or just sell it to me at face value) I won't tell ... promise
I won't ! And we will all have a better Burn for it ! Promise !
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby nocturnal_steve » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:20 pm

If I enter a raffle it's not something I am doing gladly, willingly because I am supporting a worthy cause and it's OK if I don't win, and a pleasant surprise if I do.
It's because I am desperately, diligently seeking a ticket.

How many people (myself included ) would be entering the raffle if they had an opportunity to buy a ticket at face ? (Which I would have a better chance at if the ticket were recirculated via STEP. )

Way different than happily entering a raffle for a chance at getting a ticket for a buck or two,
and if I don't win in the end game I can buy my ticket at face.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby BBadger » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:27 pm

nocturnal_steve wrote:How many people (myself included ) would be entering the raffle if they had an opportunity to buy a ticket at face?


I know this isn't the intended meaning of that question, but it gave me a great idea for optimizing the profit margins on raffles: the raffle prize will be the "opportunity" to buy the ticket at face value. It makes the raffle itself purely profit!
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby wraith » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:44 am

BBadger wrote:
nocturnal_steve wrote:How many people (myself included ) would be entering the raffle if they had an opportunity to buy a ticket at face?


I know this isn't the intended meaning of that question, but it gave me a great idea for optimizing the profit margins on raffles: the raffle prize will be the "opportunity" to buy the ticket at face value. It makes the raffle itself purely profit!


It'd sell.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:24 am

BBadger wrote:
nocturnal_steve wrote:How many people (myself included ) would be entering the raffle if they had an opportunity to buy a ticket at face?


I know this isn't the intended meaning of that question, but it gave me a great idea for optimizing the profit margins on raffles: the raffle prize will be the "opportunity" to buy the ticket at face value. It makes the raffle itself purely profit!



:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

DINGDINGDINGDING! We have a winner!


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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:40 am

Isn't it kind of the same racket?

I mean, you add a level of indirection. But the ticket is still most likely to go to the person who has bought the most raffle tickets.... in essence, whoever is willing/able to pay the most above face value.

I'm not comfortable with raffles. But banning them's not really feasible, and even if it were, I probably wouldn't be comfortable with that, either. (Don't mind me. I'm constitutionally uncomforatble...).
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby BBadger » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:13 am

Really, I just want some consistency. If we're not supposed to profit in the sale of tickets, then why are fundraising mechanisms (which are fundamentally about profit) involving tickets--of any sorts--allowed and condoned? If raffles are allowed, why not also outright allow scalping for "fundraising"? Conversely, if scalping is disallowed (ignoring scalping laws in certain states), why are other fundraising mechanisms such as raffles allowed?

The whole point of preventing scalping is to prevent people from buying tickets simply to sell off for profit. Now we're seeing the same practice with raffles under the guise of "good causes." There can be "good causes" for directly (rather than indirectly, in the case of a raffle) selling above face value too. So what is the distinction here?
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby gyre » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:41 pm

A ticket can be donated, and sold for face value to raise money.

Face value and profit, that way.
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