Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby Just_Joe » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:00 pm

Now that tickets are starting to arrive, I think anyone looking to buy needs to read Trilo's STICKY- it's got some great info.
Craigslist is going to be hot and heavy with scammers and even though the vast majority of people are honest, the cheats are going to be hanging out on CL in droves.

-Most anyone with an extra knows someone personally that could use it. Local based counterfiters will have a good story "It would have been my first trip, I don't know any burners", "It would have been my 12th burn, but....." If doing a face to face, be wary of everyone. Talk in person first. Meet in a public place. Ask if you can bring a ticket (even if you don't have one) to compare for legitimacy. Don't be afraid to move on if the person seems hinky or doesn't want to answer your questions.

-Don't buy a long distance ticket from someone you don't know. If they have a CL city within a hundred miles, someone "local" to them would be all over it, but scammers like to avoid face to face transactions. If you post a WTB in Oregon and someone from Florida contacts you, be very, very, very wary.

-Ebayers may be familiar with the "Buy It Now" scam. You are contacted by a (scammer) seller who tells you he has an item but wants to complete the transaction via a method that "protects" both parties. He delivers a FAKE email/invoice that looks like it's from Ebay with directions on how to complete the transaction by western union, bank wire or some other unrecoverable means. You then send the money and DON'T get the item. THIS SCAM HAS BEEN USED WITH STUBHUB. ANY LEGITIMATE TRANSACTION MADE THROUGH STUBHUB OR EBAY will allow payment via paypal.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:56 pm

Scammers and thieves LOVE to meet in public, just so long as it isn't their home.


I read "meeting in public" as a huge red flag.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby Just_Joe » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:09 pm

gyre wrote:Scammers and thieves LOVE to meet in public, just so long as it isn't their home.
I read "meeting in public" as a huge red flag.

I sold a Burning Man Ticket last year (face). We met at my choice, a bank.
I won't invite strangers to my home.
Banks, police stations, check cashing places, even walmart parking lots have security cameras. I tend to think that bad guys would shy away from a situation where they may get their picture taken.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:17 pm

You would be wrong, for the same reason red light cameras have zero to do with preventing crashes.

There are plenty of walmart murders on video.
The number on video from around the world is probably countless now.

We have lots of public robberies here, cl and otherwise.

A bank or police station might be safe for the same reason a parking lot is not.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby Eric » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:17 pm

If you're going to meet in person, ask them to meet at a police station or bank "for both of our safety". If they say "no", do not buy that ticket. I wouldn't trust anyone who didn't want to make a large $ transaction in a safe space.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby Just_Joe » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:35 pm

Eric wrote:If you're going to meet in person, ask them to meet at a police station or bank "for both of our safety". If they say "no", do not buy that ticket. I wouldn't trust anyone who didn't want to make a large $ transaction in a safe space.

Zactly. Without getting into the semantics what constitutes a "public place", just use your head. In the current situation, a desperate buyer wants to believe everything will work out, which gives the "seller" the opportunity to set all the rules, along with accompanying excuses.
When you (possibly lie) and say, "Can I compare it to a friends ticket to verify it and he doesn't respond, or give some reason why you can't, it's a scam.
When you say, "Can we meet in a public place and he says "I can only meet in a dark alley because I'm allergic to sunlight", it's a scam.
When he says, "Give me the money and I'll be right back with it", it's a scam.

If I were going to respond to a For Sale, I would reply with "Done, I'll take it" and give an phone number. Once I'm talking on the phone, I'd reiterate "Done, I'll take it, thank you very much" and then set the conditions.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby Savannah » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:41 pm

Here's another reason why they should be willing to meet a buyer somewhere safe: how can a ticket seller know you're not going to punch them in the face and take the ticket without paying?

They don't.

Someone selling a ticket should want some measure of safety, too. If they don't, it's good to think about why they might not.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:25 pm

"Somewhere safe" is the illusion though.
This is what makes security specialists crazy.

People often say, " I wish I knew it was unsafe here.", reacting to a particular event, when in fact it is just as dangerous now and before as it ever was.
People have a weird disconnect, especially in thinking a public place protects them.

Going to a bank doesn't protect you.
Having a record of the transaction does.

A police station is probably safe, just from the intimidation factor.
However,I was once followed and attacked after leaving a police station.

The biggest stupid thing most people do is assuming predators think like other people,
They think, "Sure I'll meet you in a public place. (hehehe)"

A woman was beaten to death here for $18 recently.
In a public place.

We've had a number of people killed in a public place, while on the phone with 911.
One of those replaced me on a job I once did.


I meet people at my home or theirs.
I know people here will call the police to draw the chalk outline.
Anything else, you are responsible for.

When someone asks me to meet them in a public place, I say I don't think I want their stolen and/or defective stuff.
And where can you test out electronics?

The important part is screening people before you meet them.
Thieves will NOT sell from their home.
Some won't write a recept or produce ID.

Most people are honest.
It isn't that hard.

FYI, the few people I have met in public, for whatever reason, have admitted to being armed.
Honest, but armed.

I won't meet anyone without having a phone number.
It no longer has the security of a land line, but it helps.

Also, many people want to meet at work.
This assures me I know how to locate them, which is what thieves avoid.
Most people do it for convenience though.

Please just stop kidding yourself about what is secure, and what isn't.
Then you can deal with reality.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby Just_Joe » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:11 pm

gyre wrote:"Somewhere safe" is the illusion though.

Yes, it all depends on your level of paranoia.

<snip>
I meet people at my home or theirs.

We're talking about burning man ticket scammers here, not old geezers selling lawnmowers and oscilloscopes.
You don't think they'll harm you in your own home where there are no 3rd party distractions but they'll blow you away in a bank?
If they ain't got a ticket, and you give them YOUR address and they show up, do you think anything positive can result?
Even if they do have a ticket and show up at your home, do you want them to point to your house when they drive by with their buddies next week and say "I know where THAT guy is going to be for the next ten days"??
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:40 pm

Paranoia is a word people in denial use to refer to those aware of how and where crime actually occurs.

Yes, tickets are a slightly different thing, but not that much.

The fact is that craigslist thieves are almost universally posting, not buying.

Robberies seem to be in public places and motel rooms.
Motel rooms are usually linked to prostitution or personal ads.
There was even a post about a ticket scammer robbing someone, re burning man tickets.
That was a public place.

Think it through.
If you live in a disarmed state or city, what do you think people will do during a robbery?
This is already known.
They will photgraph it and contact police, if anything.
In a city like this, if you have an armed citizen nearby, you may get a first responder.
It has happened.

Recording someone's identity in a bank will protect you, at least from the more severe forms of violence.
This is standard practice with large transactions, ie thousands.

RE home.
The not being home thing with a ticket is a valid concern, but one that can be dealt with.
You can say the ticket will be used by someone else, as well as purchase elsewhere.
Most burglaries done with knowledge of someone being gone has to do with friends innocently sharing info with someone shady.
This sort of thing most often has to do with information about something worth stealing, not travel plans, though it's happened.
Honest friends are the bigger security risk.
Facebook posts are a known issue too.

At home, I can meet people outdoors only, often more convenient anyway, barring electronics.
I have potential cover.
I know people will call police if I can't.
Criminals don't know who else is there or if they are armed, what weapons you have access to, and so on.
They often assess who has a potential for self defense and leave if they decide you aren't a good target.
Same thing in a public place.

Just don't kid yourself about their fear of being seen.
Watch the news.
Do they seem camera shy?

Obviously, I don't invite just anyone off the street to look at a diamond and cash collection.

I will and have invited people over to look at speakers and electronics.
How do I vet them?
How long do you think a thug can discuss exotic speakers or beanie babies without being obvious who and what they are?

Whether it is burning man or hotrods or audio or beanie babies, a real enthusiast will talk for hours, and they do.

It's not that hard.

Most importantly, outside of being in a police station, I can defend myself.

Think through what you do.
That's what is important.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby trilobyte » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:23 pm

Okay, for those not packing Gyre's level of personal paranoia/security :), just please use common sense and think for a moment before you head off to a physical location where a person (or persons) unknown to you will know you're carrying a large-ish amount of cash. Mall food courts or at a local bar/restaurant would be my personal choice. If a friend is unable to join you for a meetup, make sure someone knows you're going to meet someone to buy tickets, make sure they know your location, and check in with them so they know you're okay.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:11 pm

Rather meet someone in a dark alley knowing you don't have cash, make the deal, and then go to a bank for the cash and transfer.
This is the procedure for many inter-country car purchases.

Kidding about the alley, but most public places are about the same.

If you have any concerns, don't go.
Vet the person.
Leave the email info and phone number with someone.


By the way, burglaries aren't as much of a concern as in the past, as effective alarm systems have made violent robberies more common.
They actually want you to be home.
As a result, there are more practicing robbers than in the past.
Don't expect them to think ahead well.
They don't.

The smart criminals are rarely your concern.
Those guys are busy elsewhere.
That is the problem.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby wh..sh » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:48 pm

KEEP BUYING TICKETS FOR BURNING MAN POTENTIALLY FATAL™
In my world there's only legible and more legible.

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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:49 pm

wh..sh wrote:KEEP BUYING TICKETS FOR BURNING MAN POTENTIALLY FATAL™

:mrgreen:
If you want drama to stop following you everywhere, try letting go of the leash.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:10 pm

If you're bored, there is that!
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:57 am

catinthefunnyhat wrote:
wh..sh wrote:KEEP BUYING TICKETS FOR BURNING MAN POTENTIALLY FATAL™

:mrgreen:

:professorplum:, too.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:54 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
catinthefunnyhat wrote:
wh..sh wrote:KEEP BUYING TICKETS FOR BURNING MAN POTENTIALLY FATAL™

:mrgreen:

:professorplum:, too.



*raises hand. waves frantically*

I got this one!

It was the scalper, in the barbershop, with the straightrazor.
If you want drama to stop following you everywhere, try letting go of the leash.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby Eric » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:24 pm

catinthefunnyhat wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
catinthefunnyhat wrote: :mrgreen:

:professorplum:, too.



*raises hand. waves frantically*

I got this one!

It was the scalper, in the barbershop, with the straightrazor.


Or was it the birgin, in Center Camp, with the didgeridoo?
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:17 pm

This is a sad example of exactly how crooks think, and their attitude about public places.
A classic hate crime too, but don't hold your breath about prosecution for that.

It wasn't robbery, just a parking ding that was apologized for.
Note that no guns were used, it was only an "unarmed child".

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... r-changed/
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... e---e_bat/
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... h-threats/
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... r-attempt/
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby kiss-o-matic » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:58 pm

Are counterfeit tickets usually a problem?
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:04 pm

They were quite rare and easy to spot until the last years with sellouts.

Some moderately good fakes have been sold.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby trilobyte » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:15 pm

There have been some problems with counterfeit tickets in the pre-sellout days. Last year the event sold out for the first time, and I think there were more problems with counterfeiters. The general rule with event tickets is the hotter the ticket, the more the counterfeiters try to play - we'll see how things go this year.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby kiss-o-matic » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:37 pm

That's a bit disconcerting. In you experienced guys' opinions, would Will Call be a better option if buying from the secondary market? I mean anyone can counterfeit an email, although tracing it through the headers can tell if it can from bmorg or not. Is there a way to follow up on the status of a Will Call ticket on the intarnets?

I'd like to think most people are above that shit, but I think getting stopped at the front door w/ a truck full of costumes (not to mention the other gear required to survive) b/c of a counterfeit ticket would be about the worst buzz kill someone could experience.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:29 pm

If you can confirm it, a will call ticket is more secure.

I have complete confidence in personally spotting any of the fakes I have heard of so far.
However, everyone may not be as familiar with printing as I am.
It is important to know how the real tickets look in detail.

One trick that might be useful is to photocopy a ticket.
They do not copy straight, due to some anti-copy protocols.
If you can compare it to a photocopy of a known ticket, most fakes will jump out at you.

Printing will be very sharp on a real one, even in fine details.

Look at the edge of the paper.
The real tickets use a distinctive paper.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:26 am

There is usually an attempt by the seller to rush a purchase of this sort, besides the usual distraction of getting a ticket.

This has caused some people to miss fake tickets during purchase, that they would have spotted otherwise.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby kiss-o-matic » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:38 am

gyre wrote:If you can confirm it, a will call ticket is more secure.


Right, so what would be the best way to go about that? Can you contact bmorg at any random time to check on the status of your (hopefully) tickets?
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:37 am

It appears that there is confirmation when a name is changed.

Beyond that, I'm not sure.
A lot has changed.

You could write them directly, or someone else may know.
They're doing more than they used to do.
Sort of busy.
partiserv at burningman.com
I think

At some point in august, they bugger off to nevada.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby kiss-o-matic » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:15 am

Cheers -- will keep that in mind.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:21 am

No confirming of tickets this year. They are simply too busy.
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Re: Sticky "Regarding Ticket Scalpers & Scammers"

Postby gyre » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:04 pm

Does that include will call?
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