Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

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Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby TheObserver » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:05 am

Get the tickets made with a custom holographic stamp embedded in the ticket.

MUCH more difficult to counterfeit than a non holographic ticket that a good printer can copy.................
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby lemur » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:42 am

theyve had such stuff for a long time now..

the counterfeiters just bought some pre-made stuff and used that.. its not like their dupe would know the difference
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby TheObserver » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:48 am

Premade "stuff" would certainly not look anything like a custom holographic imprint or stamp or the like............
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby lemur » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:10 am

not to the gate staff.

but to the dupe ? they wouldnt know.. unless theyd seen a legit one
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby FeetOfClay » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:47 am

there's a thread that shows some great images of the real deal, and some counterfeits, to help people learn the difference:

http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?t=33579

http://blog.burningman.com/2011/08/news/known-ticket-scams/
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby trilobyte » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:51 am

Note - those are previous years' tickets.

And word of caution, DO NOT POST DETAILED IMAGES OF BURNING MAN TICKETS ONLINE!!!!!

You may think you're helping people spot fakes, but what you're really doing is teaching scammers how to make better counterfeit tix.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby lemur » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:16 am

that is kind of like a 'if we ban ticket pictures only the criminals will have ticket pictures' kind of caution isnt it?

certainly any serious counterfeiter will have access to a ticket from which to do their work from... there will be tens of thousands available.

and some counterfeiters neednt see a real ticket to dupe people...they can mock up anything burny they like and if there are no pictures online itd be easy enough to sell anything as a legit ticket.. because theres nothing to compare it against... by the time ppls notice its too late... either way people can be victimized..

perhaps if we are so paranoid about people even SEEING a ticket we shouldnt have them at all ?

a bad guy seeing one is certainly a way for them to duplicate one.. more so if they have one in hand

but a good guy seeing one is certainly a way for the good guy to avoid a bad ticket..

who are we gonna worry about more ?



must everyone have to email partiserv to see if the ticket is real ? ...sometimes people cant do that (or might not know to do it)....what of the folks who want to buy one after the partiserv people are on the playa and not responding to email anymore ?

if we are at the point where showing someone what a ticket looks like is open to deleted posts/edited posts (even stretching it out a bit to action from BM on ebay auctions) we are probably getting to the point where they need a better way to do it.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby trilobyte » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:36 am

I didn't suggest a ban, just using common sense. Making a good counterfeit ticket to anything takes both time and a good look at the original article. Yeah, there are tens of thousands of tickets, but most of those are not in the hands of counterfeiters. Given the high demand for tickets this year, it stands to reason that not all would-be counterfeiters who wanted tickets got them, and will need additional time to get their hands on tickets through the secondary market. I don't see any reason for people to rush to post detailed pics online.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby lemur » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:46 am

clearly the best way to do it is how Bonnaroo did it in 2012:

REQUIRED WRISTBAND REGISTRATION:

This year, all Bonnaroovians are required to register his/her RFID wristband. It’s your ticket and your investment. Registering will establish its authenticity and ensure that your uniquely coded wristband belongs to you. As an extra benefit, our friends at Ford are giving you a chance to win an all-new 2013 Ford Escape. After registering, connect to Facebook and secure an additional entry for a chance to win. Connecting will also enhance your Bonnaroo experience with social media features, possible VIP upgrades, merchandise discounts, setlists and free music from Bonnaroo bands. Awesome!
(emphasis theirs)
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby FeetOfClay » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:55 am

must everyone have to email partiserv to see if the ticket is real ? ...sometimes people cant do that (or might not know to do it)....what of the folks who want to buy one after the partiserv people are on the playa and not responding to email anymore ?


don't know if i'm right, but i was told that this year Partiserv is not even verifying ANY tickets or ticket questions...maybe due to the high volume of requests and general ticket craziness. so now more than ever, people have to be very self-reliant in determining if a prospective ticket purchase is legit--no help from emailing BMORG?
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby junglesmacks » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:19 am

I was just going to quote the Bonnaroo method. FWIW, I went this year. You want to talk about a commercialized festival.. wow.

But.. talk about a well oiled machine. WOW.. as well.

We were all sent out our bracelets within the last 2 weeks of the start of the event and implored NOT to put them on until we arrived at the gate. At the gate, the bracelets were scanned and verified at which time we were allowed to put them on. Every time you went from the camping area to the main area.. "Centeroo".. there were walk through scanners that scanned you in and then out upon exit.

Maybe we would also integrate the same approach around the key sound camps and art pieces as they did. They had a scanner where you could voluntarily scan yourself into and it would automatically check you in to your Facebook if you had linked the two together.. :wink:

I kid. No, but they did.

You know.. I have to admit.. the whole time I'm there looking at this event with 60k+ people at it.. 80+ bands.. MASSIVE infrastructure that's a crazily well oiled machine.. awesome facilities.. PAID employees..

I'm thinking.. GEE.. these tickets cost the same as a Burning Man ticket. What are we getting for our ticket price again? Some port-a-potties and a volunteer only labor pool? My god. The BMOrg has got one hell of a profit model there.. :lol:

I'm not a ticketing system nor a BMOrg basher.. and in fact am usually a defender. But.. it was some food for thought after seeing first hand a very.. VERY.. different handling of a similar sized and cost event.

On another note.. killer, killer festival. Such good music happening all around you.. non-stop.. almost 24 hours a day. Beautiful Tennessee countryside.. minimal police presence.. great eclectic spread of musical tastes. Everything from killer bluegrass jam music from the Punch Brothers to latin/world jam music from Afrocubism to Danzig to Mimosa KILLING IT.. my god. Anything and everything in between. Great festival. I'll definitely go again next year.

The Bonnaroo tickets:

Image



lemur wrote:clearly the best way to do it is how Bonnaroo did it in 2012:

REQUIRED WRISTBAND REGISTRATION:

This year, all Bonnaroovians are required to register his/her RFID wristband. It’s your ticket and your investment. Registering will establish its authenticity and ensure that your uniquely coded wristband belongs to you. As an extra benefit, our friends at Ford are giving you a chance to win an all-new 2013 Ford Escape. After registering, connect to Facebook and secure an additional entry for a chance to win. Connecting will also enhance your Bonnaroo experience with social media features, possible VIP upgrades, merchandise discounts, setlists and free music from Bonnaroo bands. Awesome!
(emphasis theirs)
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:27 am

FWIW, JS, Bonnaroo also relies on volunteers. Most commercial festivals do, as far as I know. Even trade shows do.

http://www.examiner.com/article/work-for-bonnaroo-for-free-ticket-premium-camping-and-more
Those choosing to work for Bonnaroo will earn one ticket to the 2012 Bonnaroo Music and Arts Festival, three meal tokens redeemable at certain locations within Centeroo, a Bonnaroo volunteer t-shirt, premium camping that, for most volunteers, is closer to Centeroo than General Admission camping, and access to showers not accessible to the general public.

In exchange for these things, Bonnaroo volunteers work a minimum of 18 hours before, during, or after the festival and are free to watch the shows as normal during their off hours. To ensure volunteers complete their work requirements, a refundable deposit of $285 plus a non-refundable application fee of $25 is required when registering.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby junglesmacks » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:31 am

I realize this.. but I disagree that they rely on volunteers. It's an option. A large, large majority are paid. The volunteers had special shirts/badges on and you could easily tell who was who by not only that but who looked who was just passing time and who was actually on the job.. lol.

Please don't get me wrong.. I'm NOT comparing the two events and saying gee.. why can't this be Bonnaroo! I'm just saying that it was some interesting food for thought being as that the two events are similar in size with a similarly priced ticket. The way the two are handled both in ticketing and infrastructure is glaring.


catinthefunnyhat wrote:FWIW, JS, Bonnaroo also relies on volunteers. Most commercial festivals do, as far as I know. Even trade shows do.

http://www.examiner.com/article/work-for-bonnaroo-for-free-ticket-premium-camping-and-more
Those choosing to work for Bonnaroo will earn one ticket to the 2012 Bonnaroo Music and Arts Festival, three meal tokens redeemable at certain locations within Centeroo, a Bonnaroo volunteer t-shirt, premium camping that, for most volunteers, is closer to Centeroo than General Admission camping, and access to showers not accessible to the general public.

In exchange for these things, Bonnaroo volunteers work a minimum of 18 hours before, during, or after the festival and are free to watch the shows as normal during their off hours. To ensure volunteers complete their work requirements, a refundable deposit of $285 plus a non-refundable application fee of $25 is required when registering.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby junglesmacks » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:04 am

I also realize very well that the grudgiest of grudge work.. DPW.. is paid. I can't wait for the rest of the board to wake up and the flame war to commence of how dare I even attempt to contrast and compare BM to a commercialized festival. The nerve!


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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:17 am

junglesmacks wrote:I also realize very well that the grudgiest of grudge work.. DPW.. is paid. I can't wait for the rest of the board to wake up and the flame war to commence of how dare I even attempt to contrast and compare BM to a commercialized festival. The nerve!


Well, people need to realize that even with the "extreme" examples of BM (non-commercial) and Bonnaroo (commercial), there's some blurring of lines. As you say, BM pays some of its workers. It also contracts out certain essential services (i.e. porta-potties); and, as also noted, commercial festivals use volunteer labour.

But there's another thing I hadn't thought of, and that's commercial sponsorship. I wonder how much of the budget of a large commercial festival comes from selling ad space and vendor booths? I'm guessing an awful lot. By having the participants "be" the festival and relying more heavily on volunteers, BM saves expenses. But by not accepting sponsorships or selling vendor permits, it probably forgoes a similar amount of revenue.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby Drawingablank » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:22 am

JS, I just want to point out that at Bonaroo it isn't just tickets funding the event - iirc there are all sorts of commercial sponsorships, and other commerce that generates revenue.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby junglesmacks » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:36 am

This is very, VERY true.. and I'll give you that freely.

Again.. I'm not trying to draw too many parallels here except that I thought that the RFID bracelet/ticket was an interesting concept.. and that the way that crowd control and the overall infrastructure was built and operated was mighty impressive.


Drawingablank wrote:JS, I just want to point out that at Bonaroo it isn't just tickets funding the event - iirc there are all sorts of commercial sponsorships, and other commerce that generates revenue.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:12 am

junglesmacks wrote:This is very, VERY true.. and I'll give you that freely.

Again.. I'm not trying to draw too many parallels here except that I thought that the RFID bracelet/ticket was an interesting concept.. and that the way that crowd control and the overall infrastructure was built and operated was mighty impressive.


Yeah, the RFID bracelets do sound like a decent idea.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby BBadger » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:30 am

junglesmacks wrote:I also realize very well that the grudgiest of grudge work.. DPW.. is paid. I can't wait for the rest of the board to wake up and the flame war to commence of how dare I even attempt to contrast and compare BM to a commercialized festival. The nerve!


Actually, I take more offense to it taking place in some terrible humid place like Tennessee. Yeech! That would be a deal breaker for me.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby junglesmacks » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:36 am

As primarily a Florida resident at the moment, I found it to be quite refreshing.. :lol:

80 during the day.. 65 at night.. beautiful, bushy, green Tennessee mountains. It was beautiful, perfect weather.

BBadger wrote:
junglesmacks wrote:I also realize very well that the grudgiest of grudge work.. DPW.. is paid. I can't wait for the rest of the board to wake up and the flame war to commence of how dare I even attempt to contrast and compare BM to a commercialized festival. The nerve!


Actually, I take more offense to it taking place in some terrible humid place like Tennessee. Yeech! That would be a deal breaker for me.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby Lord Of Ruin » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:37 am

junglesmacks wrote:This is very, VERY true.. and I'll give you that freely.

Again.. I'm not trying to draw too many parallels here except that I thought that the RFID bracelet/ticket was an interesting concept.. and that the way that crowd control and the overall infrastructure was built and operated was mighty impressive.


Drawingablank wrote:JS, I just want to point out that at Bonaroo it isn't just tickets funding the event - iirc there are all sorts of commercial sponsorships, and other commerce that generates revenue.


Why do you assume that the RFID solution ala Bonnarroo and others hasn't been considered. You seem to think that the ORG hides its head in the sand. In fact, many departments look longingly at solutions that would likely completely solve problems outright. Budget, budget, budget. Bonnarroo, Coachella, etc have all been visited by ORG contingencies. They've met with the vendors (where do you think we got DFM from?).

Festies like Bonnarroo are on an order of magnitude higher in terms of revenue generated. They have just countless streams of revenue coming in....tickets, sponsorships, vendor (licensing and cuts of profits), branding, broadcast rights,etc, etc.

That's like saying...man, those dumb poor people wouldn't have a homeless problem if they'd just call a real estate agent and buy a fricken mansion. What morons they are!
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:39 am

Lord Of Ruin wrote:That's like saying...man, those dumb poor people wouldn't have a homeless problem if they'd just call a real estate agent and buy a fricken mansion. What morons they are!

I like that.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby junglesmacks » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:57 am

Lord Of Ruin wrote:
junglesmacks wrote:This is very, VERY true.. and I'll give you that freely.

Again.. I'm not trying to draw too many parallels here except that I thought that the RFID bracelet/ticket was an interesting concept.. and that the way that crowd control and the overall infrastructure was built and operated was mighty impressive.


Drawingablank wrote:JS, I just want to point out that at Bonaroo it isn't just tickets funding the event - iirc there are all sorts of commercial sponsorships, and other commerce that generates revenue.


Why do you assume that the RFID solution ala Bonnarroo and others hasn't been considered.


I didn't and I don't.

You do know what assume stands for, right?

I mean.. I do. That's why I didn't. :D

Simply drawing a parallel and stating that I thought that it was interesting. Read into it however you would like..
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby International Incident » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:59 pm

JS I hear what you say but...

Handheld RFID scanners do not hold up well in extreme dust. You would have to have some quite resiliant ones. The ones that are used by the big festivals are "usually" hired - to keep the costs down. I wouldn't want to hire out my scanners to BM if I was a company specialising in this type of service.

Also the RFID scanners have to run of a secure network - and that's all mighty fine when you are running a festival that doesn't need to run off generators for power supply etc. You'd also have to have techs on standby - if the bloody thing crashed, imagine the chaos.

On pricing: I don't think you have factored in the cross subsidy of the food and booze sellers (massive) and how that impacts on ticket prices at the music festivals. Also the cost of the permits/LEOs is also bloody high. I'd have to suspect that the cost of providing the main "sponsored art (ie The Man)", the fireworks, and the art grants. It all adds up.

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth

I'm sure all these things are doable - in time and for a price - technology keeps improving so maybe we will see RFIDs happen.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby BBadger » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:19 pm

junglesmacks wrote:As primarily a Florida resident at the moment, I found it to be quite refreshing.. :lol:

80 during the day.. 65 at night.. beautiful, bushy, green Tennessee mountains. It was beautiful, perfect weather.


Yeah, but any place on Earth would feel refreshing to someone in Florida--except maybe that gateway-to-hell Louisiana. It's like going from one ring of hell to another.


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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby Rice » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:10 am

So, is this thread going to devolve into another "how to run gate" conversation?? Cause I have not seen anything about that in the last little while...

Perhaps it could talk about the great scalping issues with the 100 tickets being scalped, or whatever this weeks count is.



It would be refreshing to discuss why there are scalpers or how people end up with counterfeit tickets. Or Bacon, that is a fun subject too...


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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby BBadger » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:34 am

Yeah, we haven't had a good rant about why not checking cars at the gate will streamline everything.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:39 am

stretch80 wrote:It would be refreshing to discuss why there are scalpers or how people end up with counterfeit tickets. Or Bacon, that is a fun subject too...



Counterfeit bacon is a serious and growing threat to our way of life in Black Rock City, especially when scalping is involved. We will need to tap our greatest minds in search of creative and daring solutions.
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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:51 am

catinthefunnyhat wrote:
stretch80 wrote:It would be refreshing to discuss why there are scalpers or how people end up with counterfeit tickets. Or Bacon, that is a fun subject too...



Counterfeit bacon is a serious and growing threat to our way of life in Black Rock City, especially when scalping is involved. We will need to tap our greatest minds in search of creative and daring solutions.


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Re: Possible Solution to Counterfeit Tickets

Postby Foxfur » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:34 am

Anything that would secure the authenticity of bacon is something I would enthusiastically support. I unknowingly ate some Afghani bacon and was rather unimpressed.

junglesmacks wrote:
catinthefunnyhat wrote:
stretch80 wrote:It would be refreshing to discuss why there are scalpers or how people end up with counterfeit tickets. Or Bacon, that is a fun subject too...



Counterfeit bacon is a serious and growing threat to our way of life in Black Rock City, especially when scalping is involved. We will need to tap our greatest minds in search of creative and daring solutions.


OH, THE HORROR!

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