Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby eb0502 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:29 am

yagotetra wrote:@eb502
MOOP there is a reason for it and I am not here to argue woth you, we'll do better but I'm afraid it's systemic


? cleaning after yourself is a hard thing to do is it? you were paid money to take care of your cattle, clearly not enough money to get the job done right...

PS "la bave du crapaud n'atteint pas la blanche colombe"


if this is in relation to our words on your camp, well your slime tarnished the white dove that is the playa.... and will continue to tarnish it till enough people speak out about it.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Bob » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:05 am

There's no requirement that Burning Man has to be hard. Anyone has the opportunity to do nothing, or way too much. Everybody is told how to camp, in excruciating detail. Many camps, not just staff camps, have RVs and trailers put in place for them, along with shipping containers full of their *art* supplies. Water and sewage service. And nobody to tell them they can't park their ugly noisy stinky crap next to your hand-sewn rainbow teepee.

DPW has bunks in a Gerlach trailer park. Catered meals. Access to an auto shop, welding shop, carpentry shop, trucks and heavy equipment. And a cultural reeducation program that would make Chairman Mao beam with pride. It's more intensely organized adventure camping than anything you'd see on reality television. Fifteen odd years ago, maybe one guy showed up with a cherry picker. Everybody brought stuff in their own vehicles, and maybe one or two rental trucks. Now it looks like they moved an entire heavy equipment rental yard to the playa, from Bobcats to 100-ft cranes to road graders, along with a fleet of trucks from pickups to tractor trailers. And the event time frame and budgets expand to meet or exceed each previous year's. Ditto with the collection of giant paperweights aka funded art. Busy busy busy.

In other words, have some perspective. Any camp can have problems, real or imagined. I've still not read anything in this thread that cries out for anything more than the normal diligence the theme camp dept always uses to design its community <drink>.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby alt12 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:07 am

zoebee wrote:So it seems to me that 99% of you are saying...
you can only come to the playa if you will camp in a tent, cook your own food, contribute to everyone else's conceivable needs and are of limited financial means.
how oddly elitist of all of you.

If you've worked hard and are successful and busy and can afford to give and share and be comfortable... you should still stay in tent and be hot and cook your own damn dusty food. Because shame on you for being rich?!

I am a person of very limited means. I work really hard. I save all year. I gather costumes and plan all year. If I could I would help build an art car. I have contributed art, and helped fund more. I get to the Playa the second I can and leave the last minute possible.... and this year I will proudly be camping at Playa Skool (thanks, you beautiful folk, for inviting me in!!!)

I will be there to help set up (and take down if my job permits me the extra time). I will be on the roster to cook and clean and build and sweat and laugh and probably cry. Like EVERYONE ELSE in camp i will work my balls off to make other people happy. Sometimes I will fail. Sometimes people will fail to make me happy (OMG!) but you know what? THAT'S MY DAMN PROBLEM. I'll pull my balls out of my purse and deal with it.

Someone accused Janus of whining earlier, which I found very funny. It seems that he's one of the few people on here who is not whining. A lot of you are choosing to get angry, or condescending, or rude, or plain nasty and accusatory. You remind me of the girls I went to high school with (shudder). How about ASKING questions? Whatever happened to adult conversations? The majority of the people in this thread sound like they learned their manners hanging out in a TMZ comment thread. A lot of you should be embarrassed for the nasty vibes and immature words used in this comment thread, and mostly for your skewed look at this. Look at your own limited and very judgmental and unforgiving selves. Whenever you point a finger at someone there are three of your own curled back that point at you. (Insert demo)

I get that the lottery system has made us all feel scared and weird and little, but Playa Skool shouldn't be made a scapegoat. As a new Skooler, a tenting (slumming) veteran and a survivor of Entheon 2008 (wow, what a debacle!) I can say I am proud to be associated with P.Skool.

Even some Burners need more Burning man experiences to "get it".

WWTMD?
(what would The Man do?) Enjoy your burn everyone. Breathe deep. We're almost Home.



People are expressing their anger with the model of your camp and the impact is has on the event. That is the bottom line. We are expressing are distaste for this kind of manufactured/commodified experience and the new "purchase a burning man experience" paradigm.... As you can see, the broader community does not like this plug-and-play or concierge/valet camping model and thinks it fits better in Beverly Hills than it does at Black Rock City....
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby DrYes » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:19 am

PapaBear2120 wrote:Janus,
Do you really NEED air conditioning? Can you figure out a way to power your pimp house without a generator?
I've never NEEDED, or used, air conditioning or a power line for my personal little pimp structure in the back of our theme camp.
Maybe you have a medical condition, I won't begrudge that; however, if there's really not a need, use a better phrase—for instance, I want to have air conditioning because I ______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).


Do you really NEED a tent? I know someone last year that just unrolled a sleeping bag underneath someone else's truck and just hoped for minimal dust storms. Sounds like you need luxuries like a tent because you______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).

There's always someone burnier-than-thou who can make your burnier-than-thou attitude look stupid.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby DrYes » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:21 am

Trishntek wrote: Burning Man is a gathering of the most UNPRETENTIOUS, GRATEFUL, GENEROUS and LOVING people in my experience.


That is very true, but it sure doesn't come through on this thread or in your post.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Ugly Dougly » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:24 am

NO SPECTATORS!

Isn't that the rallying cry? Correct me if I am wrong.


okay?


Now, many Burgins are too star-struck the first year to be anything but spectators anyway. They are too busy earning their playa stripes, learning to radically self-reliant, and learning to apply the other principles to their experience.

Plug N Play camping is not acceptable - because it steals from participants the opportunity to become bona fide burners through this experience.

You don't experience Burning Man by leaning out the window of your tour bus as it drives by Black Rock City.
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby TomServo » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:33 am

DrYes wrote:
PapaBear2120 wrote:Janus,
Do you really NEED air conditioning? Can you figure out a way to power your pimp house without a generator?
I've never NEEDED, or used, air conditioning or a power line for my personal little pimp structure in the back of our theme camp.
Maybe you have a medical condition, I won't begrudge that; however, if there's really not a need, use a better phrase—for instance, I want to have air conditioning because I ______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).


Do you really NEED a tent? I know someone last year that just unrolled a sleeping bag underneath someone else's truck and just hoped for minimal dust storms. Sounds like you need luxuries like a tent because you______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).

There's always someone burnier-than-thou who can make your burnier-than-thou attitude look stupid.


Do you really NEED a Sleeping Bag? I served bar at Roller Disco and simply passed out behind it. Sounds like you need luxuries like a Sleeping Bag because you______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).

There's always someone burnier-than-thou who can make your burnier-than-thou attitude look stupid.
anything worth doing..is worth overdoing

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby stinkyfoot » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:35 am

Sorry I'm paraphrasing this bigass post here to respond to some of your points.

lemur wrote:The reason to quote these parts and to show it at all really is to highlight what I see as a disconnect that seems to be occuring with the Plug N Play camp model and BRC as a whole.

You see.. if the services that are promised arent delivered in a "Plug & Play" camp, an apology is, apparently, in order. People paid for a service and they didnt get it... in some cases folks might want a refund.

In the first quote from the Entheon email it seems to express their surprise that people who, they felt, should be disappointed in not getting services they paid for, showed good will and encouragement.


I think you're interpreting those letters a certain way based on the wording and phrases used, I think the guy is just using urban intellectual professional speak to say, 'hey, sorry we fucked up and we want to acknowledge the good inputs of all the people camping with us.' He might offer refunds but I would bet that he actually received little or no requests for refunds, in that context, calling up and demanding a refund would be an assy move. What I see there is a camp that managed to successfully create a sense of investment and interaction for it's paid members.

I think this highlights the disconnect that we are bound to see if the LLC encourages Plug and Play type camps... The organizers of a camp should never be pleased that the people in the camp are showing support, good will and encouragement if something goes wrong. That good will, encouragement and support should be the de-facto standard. It should be all hands on deck when some issue comes up. Everyone in the camp should be involved, everyone should be committed to the communal effort. And involved not because they were ordered to, but because they actually care. With the plug and play vendor camps people arent really part of the communal effort.. They are customers..


You're equating recognition with encouragement. I really doubt that by starting a conversation about these types of camps, it's the BMorg's intent to allow them to run wild and go ahead carry on doing what they've always been doing. I think it's more likely that they'll do what larger organizations always do when they recognize something, they're going to ask that PnP or VIP camps start rising to a certain standard, and they're going to support and curate the good examples and discourage the bad ones.

I think that some people assume that the BMorg somehow automatically condones everything that goes on in that event. That if some people are using the space in a certain way that seems contrary to the principles set out by the event and the BMorg doesn't descend from the heavens and crush it out of existence, that they've somehow failed to do their jobs or are willfully ignoring those things for their own profit. As if moving an organization to face a complex phenomenon is some kind of trivial task.

What I see is that these camps have existed for some time, and they've been flying under the radar in terms of having enough critical mass in order to be dealt with on an organizational level. Until now. And now that the BMorg is taking an interest in this type of camping, it's going to start setting some rules and guidelines to better integrate them into the fabric of the city. The fact that they're talking about it is actually a good thing.

Edit: I also want to acknowledge that going out and surviving on the playa is not trivial either. In fact it's so not trivial that I doubt most of the people at the event, including many of the vets who routinely camp in groups or two or more people, could do it on their own. I think when the BMorg starts having this discussion about PnP style camps, they're going to find that, for many people, it's a safe way to be introduced to the event for the first, second or third time. I know all of you talk about how it takes more than one burn, sometimes, to make a burner, so why single out one group of people as doing it wrong?
Last edited by stinkyfoot on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:40 am

I say we kidnap plug and play tourists, dose them up with a few hits of acid and drop them off deep playa to test their interactivity skills.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby TomServo » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:41 am

I'm with that
anything worth doing..is worth overdoing

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby PapaBear2120 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:42 am

DrYes wrote:
PapaBear2120 wrote:Janus,
Do you really NEED air conditioning? Can you figure out a way to power your pimp house without a generator?
I've never NEEDED, or used, air conditioning or a power line for my personal little pimp structure in the back of our theme camp.
Maybe you have a medical condition, I won't begrudge that; however, if there's really not a need, use a better phrase—for instance, I want to have air conditioning because I ______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).


Do you really NEED a tent? I know someone last year that just unrolled a sleeping bag underneath someone else's truck and just hoped for minimal dust storms. Sounds like you need luxuries like a tent because you______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).

There's always someone burnier-than-thou who can make your burnier-than-thou attitude look stupid.


No, I don't NEED a tent, hence using the word "pimp." :)
I was pointing out the choice of words in that specific instance. The message got a bit lost in the specifics. There are really only a few needs at BM, water being the main one. Anyone can want to have an RV, or AC, or a personal shade structure, or a tent, or a sleeping bag they can roll out on the Playa, but we don't need these. Actually, it does suck when it gets down into the 40's with a wind chill and you don't have any cover or a sleeping bag.

But seriously, and with the least amount of snarkiness I can convey in a textual conversation, thanks for putting that into perspective.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:45 am

TomServo wrote:I'm with that


Hey, just doing my part to radically include them by maximizing the opportunity for them to experience a life altering "event" while there.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby trilobyte » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:47 am

Putting on the moderator hat for a minute, I'd like to ask that we steer the conversation back towards a discussion of plug and play camps in general. Tell us what you think and how you feel about plug and play camps in general, as well as any benefits or problems they bring to Burning Man. Regardless of what we may think or feel about Playaskool, this is a bigger and broader issue than just their camp. Quoting a bit from Will's blog post...
Will Chase wrote:The challenge, then, is to help these camps integrate into the ways of Burning Man and to positively acculturate their participants. We also want the sponsors of these camps to understand how they are perceived and how they affect the event and the rest of the Burning Man community.
Based on the videos and anecdotes and our own personal experiences, what ideas do we have and what can we suggest to the Org and to these camps (again, in general) to help them integrate into the ways of Burning Man? If you feel they're doing it all wrong, what constructive ideas do you have to help them turn things around and do things right?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:51 am

TomServo wrote: Do you really NEED a Sleeping Bag? I served bar at Roller Disco and simply passed out behind it. Sounds like you need luxuries like a Sleeping Bag because you______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).

There's always someone burnier-than-thou who can make your burnier-than-thou attitude look stupid.


You slept behind a bar? Mr luxury I see...

I sleep naked.

In deep playa.

During the day.

With no sunscreen.

And that's right bitches. I drink my own piss to dehydrate just like Bear Grylls.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby ygmir » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:53 am

CapSmashy wrote:
TomServo wrote: Do you really NEED a Sleeping Bag? I served bar at Roller Disco and simply passed out behind it. Sounds like you need luxuries like a Sleeping Bag because you______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).

There's always someone burnier-than-thou who can make your burnier-than-thou attitude look stupid.


You slept behind a bar? Mr luxury I see...

I sleep naked.

In deep playa.

During the day.

With no sunscreen.

And that's right bitches. I drink my own piss to dehydrate just like Bear Grylls.


* so much now makes sense*..........
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby shykat » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:59 am

TomServo wrote:
DrYes wrote:
PapaBear2120 wrote:Janus,
Do you really NEED air conditioning? Can you figure out a way to power your pimp house without a generator?
I've never NEEDED, or used, air conditioning or a power line for my personal little pimp structure in the back of our theme camp.
Maybe you have a medical condition, I won't begrudge that; however, if there's really not a need, use a better phrase—for instance, I want to have air conditioning because I ______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).


Do you really NEED a tent? I know someone last year that just unrolled a sleeping bag underneath someone else's truck and just hoped for minimal dust storms. Sounds like you need luxuries like a tent because you______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).

There's always someone burnier-than-thou who can make your burnier-than-thou attitude look stupid.


Do you really NEED a Sleeping Bag? I served bar at Roller Disco and simply passed out behind it. Sounds like you need luxuries like a Sleeping Bag because you______ (insert reason you can't handle the desert here).

There's always someone burnier-than-thou who can make your burnier-than-thou attitude look stupid.


Hahaha, i'm going camp in the proto potties.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Headmaster Janus » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:11 am

AH --- Top of the Morning to you ePlaya People --- Headmaster Janus here.

What an interesting conversation this has become. I have actually gone through and read this entire blog now a couple of times, really pondering all comments and believe that we, collectively, are all one thing: passionate about what we believe Burning Man IS and SHOULD be. And the conversation, interestingly enough is really being carried by less than 20 or so people, so I'm encouraged that ePlaya as a forum for discussion is not significant enough of an opinion poll to rely on it: a few loud voices and harsh words don't define the ethos of an entire community. But, like my good friend told me long ago, "The Spouting Whale gets the harpoon." And boy, did I feel that I got harpooned yesterday.

I want to say it's not personal, but the truth is - it is. That a choice I made when I opened myself up to representing what I consider to be an evolving model of how people are camping at Burning Man. I'm not here to say that model is right or the only way. I'm here to discuss it, add perspective, and seek solution. And while each of you hold Burning Man dearly in your hearts and minds, it's very important to realize this --- that IS our common ground --- a love for Burning Man and what is means in our lives.

When I read about "intent" and "clients" and "VIP" and these things --- It's frustrating because that's not what PlayaSkool is. If you were to gather 200 of your close circle of friends and go to Burning Man, you would divide responsibilities, pool resources, maybe look to have a couple of cool projects, build, cook --- maybe you might register your camp, maybe not. Maybe you would have people in your camp skilled and capable and able to do special services like driving heavy equipment, maybe not. Maybe some of the 200 could only be there for 72 hours because they are an Emergency Room MD working in London who just came off a 3 day shift, will go back to a 3 day shift, but chooses to connect with their family, even if it's just or a few days --- maybe not. But you certainly wouldn't have 200 homogenous people --- you would have 200 people with varied intent and circumstance. That's what we have. We aren't profiting. We aren't trying to shred the fabric of Burning Man. It's quite the opposite. But that's just PlayaSkool --- imperfect, flawed but very committed to getting it right.

There are other models of Plug and Play that are out there. Let me state for the record: I believe there is a place at Burning Man for Plug and Play.

I need to address the person who is part of the private PlayaSkool Facebook page, which is supposed to be for members of PlayaSkool. While I think it's wrong of you to take the private conversations I have with my PlayaSkool family, I will atone and describe the circumstance.

Yes, I expressed my frustration with ePlaya Blog yesterday on a private, closed-group Facebook post where I pointed out Andy Tannenhill and Kimberly Morbito and said they were lounging in South America while I was scrapping by. First of all, let me say for the record that I don't know Andy of Kimberly. I just met them while filming the Plug and Play video. In that short time period, I found them both to be wonderful people, intelligent, committed, open and most of all TRUE to what they believe. At the time we met and were discussing our camps, I was very open that I represent a form of plug and play through a new camp called PlayaSkool. They spoke of their experience with Plug and Play but didn't not disclose the name of their camp or their client. It was a mystery shrouded in conversation but with hints that "tickets were NO problem to get for their 'client'" and "money was no object" --- after the meeting I was talking to a friend of mine at the BMHQ and even asked her, "So who is their client?" --- I thought for sure it was Mark Zuckerberg or Sergei from Google or some high-flying Silicon Valley guy who wants to bring all his friends to the Playa and introduce them to Burning Man.

I was genuinely surprised yesterday when I found out that the client for Table Nektars Plug and Play camp that is featured in this video is Burning Man Project's Board Member and owner of the Joie de Vivre hotel chain, Chip Conley. The video that is post on here shows the camp.

So for me yesterday --- I was fielding all sorts of comments --- trying to lend perspective to something that I think is important: Plug and Play. But when I discovered that the other model of Plug and Play shown was a Burning Man Board Member's own camp! I was really upset that I wasn't told this but rather had to find out on my own --- and I post on our private Facebook page that here I was explaining PlayaSkool when Andy and Kimberly are vacationing in South America for a couple of months. That's not fair to Andy and Kimberly so I extend my apology.

NOW --- let's tackle Burning Man Board Member Chip Conley's Plug and Play camp. Here's what I think: GOOD FOR CHIP!!!! And where was my invite?! :-)

Here is a guy that regularly GIVES in every aspect of his life and in a BIG way. For his 50th Birthday he wanted to bring a group of his closest friends and family to Burning Man and introduce them to it. I really don't give a HOOT if he decides to do that with RV's and caterers and setup crews and everything else that goes into HIS choice to share with the people closest to him something that is hear and dear to his heart. GO CHIP GO! How can't you knock his intent or that of his campers?

Here's one for you: what's the intent of the LLC or the Not-for-Profit when one of their Board members hosts a Plug & Play camp? I call it: EVOLUTION. Or better yet: FERTILITY 2.0. ---- you can't hold back the tides of change.

But if you want to squelch the Plug and Play camps then there are two policies that would certainly slow it down:

1. NO vendors allowed at Burning Man. Period.
This extends to vendors that bring in large cranes to lift the top of the Temple to go on it. This extends to vendors that bring large flat-bed trucks to carry giant Cherry Branches made of metal out to the Playa. This extends to water trucks delivering water. This extends to any and all heavy equipment that is brought in AT ALL.

2. NO RV's, Trailers, Fifth-Wheels, Sleeping Vans, or any other form of Vehicular Shelter allowed.

That would slow things down. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE --- the evolution of Burning Man would STILL take place.

Some people believe that these vendor services should be taxed in some way. But again, I'm sure Chip Conley or any other Plug and Play camp will find a way to pay for that tax and you would STILL be battling over "intent" and the other issues highlighted in this conversation.

The reality is this: Plug and Play is here to stay. Like Andie Grace said, and I paraphrase, if you push back the tide, it will just emerge underground somehow. And it will.

Who are we to judge what is right or wrong in the course of a self-made week? When did we become exclusive?

I'm personally frustrated by a lot of the 10 Principles talk. For me, they are guide posts, not dogma. They form a moral ground and frame how we should play in the creative sandbox. But Burning Man and the 10 Principles is NOT some sort of religion. I don't even remember the 10 Principles back before 2000! And it's VERY difficult to live each and every one of them in all moments. I try --- We try --- but I'm not going to frustrate myself with trying to be perfect based on these things. I broke free from my Catholic guilt and the dogma of that cult NOT to trade it for some other. Free Will. Gratitude. Golden Rule. Green Rule. Peace. Seek to Understand before Being Understood. Family. Love. Empathy. ---- these are better than Radical Self Reliance, Decommodification, or some of the others.

So yes --- I'm for Plug and Play. I believe it's here to stay. I think if it's about "intent" it's something you just can't "police" because it's nearly impossible to know what someone's "intent" is with any certainty and it's wrong to place judgement on that intent in a world of inclusion.

Do I hear your voices and what you are saying? Absolutely, very much so. Do I think that catered camps are the bane of Burning Man's existence. NO. Do I condone spectator tours of Burning Man. ABSOLUTELY NOT. But do I consider EITHER of the examples shown in this Plug and Play discussion as a mere spectator venue --- NOPE.

You want me to hear you --- but are you truly listening as well with an open mind and in a supporting way? If you seek to find a solution to the question: is there a place in Burning Man for Plug & Play camps and how do we deal with the fact that they are here? Then I suggest spending MORE time on topic and LESS time attacking one another.

I'm not a perfect person. I don't profess to be. I'm just a guy, a Burner, trying to make sense of the evolution of something that has transformed my life for the better. And I want to share that with the people I care about the most so they too have that choice. I celebrate PlayaSkool, Table Nektar and the rest of those people dedicated to Fertility 2.0 ---
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:23 am

trilobyte wrote:Putting on the moderator hat for a minute, I'd like to ask that we steer the conversation back towards a discussion of plug and play camps in general. Tell us what you think and how you feel about plug and play camps in general, as well as any benefits or problems they bring to Burning Man. Regardless of what we may think or feel about Playaskool, this is a bigger and broader issue than just their camp. Quoting a bit from Will's blog post...
Will Chase wrote:The challenge, then, is to help these camps integrate into the ways of Burning Man and to positively acculturate their participants. We also want the sponsors of these camps to understand how they are perceived and how they affect the event and the rest of the Burning Man community.
Based on the videos and anecdotes and our own personal experiences, what ideas do we have and what can we suggest to the Org and to these camps (again, in general) to help them integrate into the ways of Burning Man? If you feel they're doing it all wrong, what constructive ideas do you have to help them turn things around and do things right?


We have a small contingent within our camp that would theoretically qualify as being plug and play since they travel over from Japan and we plug them into our established infrastructure. Of course, the key difference being, they are not paying for the "privilege" of being able to utilize our infrastructure. In fact, we more or less forced them into it after seeing their camping conditions from 2010, so I guess ultimately that really would not qualify in the true essence of being plug and play. That and one of them is a well known Japanese pop artist that has contributed interactive performance art on the Playa for many years.


Now, in broader terms, the deep, dark, evil capitalist in me could fully embrace the plug and play camp in a box aspect of this topic and run with it in a very big way. The potential to make an assload of cash off of clueless, wealthy newbs that heard about the event and though "Oh jolly good, we must do this.", especially now that the event has encroached within the mainstream radar, has a lot of appeal and a huge profit potential. Of course, doing so would be actively participating in the erosion of something I love and respect far too much which, at the end of the day, makes me a bad capitalist. :mrgreen:

The plug and play thing will never go away as long as that thing in the desert is around with theme camps and villages. It is an unavoidable consequence of pulling together people from all over the world into camps, like the example above about our camp and our Japanese crew. I think the problem that would come into play by trying to limit or curtail this activity is what criteria is utilized to say no, your plug in play is bad, but your plug and play is good? I can fill out a theme camp ap that will make me look like the next best thing since HELCO and make absolutely no mention that I am bringing in 35 VIP's that have paid me $8k a head to enjoy a luxurious week's vacation in the desert. I wind up pretty much not doing really anything I stated I was going to do in my application and next year, my sidekick fills out the application, etc and we get placed again with rinse and repeat.

We can make all manner of complaints about the practice, but what the fuck can actually be done to stop it if there is no indication until everything is dust side that it has happened? Call in Johnny Law to move them out?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby The CO » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:27 am

CapSmashy wrote:I sleep naked.

In deep playa.

During the day.

With no sunscreen.

And that's right bitches. I drink my own piss to dehydrate just like Bear Grylls.


Hah. You sleep at Burning Man? I guess you just can't handle the TRUE playa experience....

Headmaster Janus wrote:1. NO vendors allowed at Burning Man. Period.
This extends to vendors that bring in large cranes to lift the top of the Temple to go on it. This extends to vendors that bring large flat-bed trucks to carry giant Cherry Branches made of metal out to the Playa. This extends to water trucks delivering water. This extends to any and all heavy equipment that is brought in AT ALL.

2. NO RV's, Trailers, Fifth-Wheels, Sleeping Vans, or any other form of Vehicular Shelter allowed.


I think that massively impacting the ability of everyone to build things, by taking several steps backwards, just to get rid of a small element you don't like is a really bad idea.

#2-Do we really need to rehash the RV thing? "any other form of Vehicular Shelter allowed." So, you are down with excluding a large percentage of people? How you going to keep hippies from sleeping in vans?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:34 am

If you don't know who Chip is.... he's on the BURNING MAN PROJECT BOARD.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:36 am

Do you have any sense of humor?
I don't think so

so very, very wrong...
Last edited by theCryptofishist on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:38 am

The CO wrote:Hah. You sleep at Burning Man? I guess you just can't handle the TRUE playa experience....


grumblegrumblegrumble

I think that massively impacting the ability of everyone to build things, by taking several steps backwards, just to get rid of a small element you don't like is a really bad idea.

#2-Do we really need to rehash the RV thing? "any other form of Vehicular Shelter allowed." So, you are down with excluding a large percentage of people? How you going to keep hippies from sleeping in vans?


Some people have to make the jump to extremes to defend their side.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:40 am

theCryptofishist wrote:So this is not the time to wade in with:
I know Dr Jet Sinister, I am a friend of Dr Jet, and I'm here to tell you, the person you are describing is no Dr Jet Sinister
?


Naw, all we gotta talk about is how great her tits are and everything is okay.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby PapaBear2120 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:46 am

Slightly back on track:

One thought I've been putting through the stone tumbler is about the size of camps. The Theme Camp I run averages around 60 people each year. We struggle with aspects of all those people getting to know each other, sometimes even recognizing faces.

I've never camped with over 75 people, but I can imagine it's totally impossible to meet every single person when there's 200.

The problem I'm contemplating is the acculturation of camp members when a camp is that large. "Acculturation" was one of the questions on the Theme Camp Application.

When a camp is PnP, how do they deal with the acculturation of their virgins that might have written a check with the expectation that all wants will be accommodated? I don't consider my camp PnP (I'm contemplating putting our model out to give you all some new fodder to rip apart, but I haven't summoned up the guts yet), but we still address some of these issues. Beyond telling everyone to read the survival guide, I've written a "Survival Guide for Camping with RevoFuckinLution" that's a guide book for virgins and veterans on how to fully participate in our camp and not be an idiot. But unfortunately, not everyone chooses to read. Then we face the on Playa guidance and hoping campers are learning through watching us. On top of that, I still learn every year or become more "acculturated" through my experiences.

I'm not saying theme camp numbers should be capped. Art installations, mutant vehicles, and theme camps all require funding. Our camp, like many others, doesn't have a "funder," we all pitch in together to create the space we want. We've kept our budget as low as possible to keep our numbers as low as possible, but to do what we want, we need around 60 people (check out the want vs. need in there). We don't need to run a bar that serves beer off a tap every night, but we damn well want to! Why? Because it's fun, because we like to meet new people, because we like to create a space for people to enjoy. I'm starting to go off on a tangent and back to "why are theme camps that important anyway"...

My main point is the difficulty that large theme camps face of aiding in the understanding of the 10 principals. If theme camps were capped on numbers, it wouldn't stop PnP from happening. That's certainly not a solution. PnP will happen. Regulation might only create a black market for it where it's not as easy to detect.

The theme camp application contains a space where the camp agrees to abide to an LNT plan. Can a similar model be created on how to acculturate? What would that look like? Are we then socializing people into being a certain way and does that even mesh with radical self-expression?

I feel like I could say more or clarify better; however, I'm not sure how to right now. Critique away, please. :P
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Dr Jet Sinister » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:47 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
yagotetra wrote:Do you have any sense of humor?
I don't think so

Dr Jet Sinister wrote:Completely irrelevant to the ongoing discussion.

So this is not the time to wade in with:
I know Dr Jet Sinister, I am a friend of Dr Jet, and I'm here to tell you, the person you are describing is no Dr Jet Sinister
?

Thank you Fishy. :)

CapSmashy wrote:
trilobyte wrote:Putting on the moderator hat for a minute, I'd like to ask that we steer the conversation back towards a discussion of plug and play camps in general. Tell us what you think and how you feel about plug and play camps in general, as well as any benefits or problems they bring to Burning Man. Regardless of what we may think or feel about Playaskool, this is a bigger and broader issue than just their camp. Quoting a bit from Will's blog post...
Will Chase wrote:The challenge, then, is to help these camps integrate into the ways of Burning Man and to positively acculturate their participants. We also want the sponsors of these camps to understand how they are perceived and how they affect the event and the rest of the Burning Man community.
Based on the videos and anecdotes and our own personal experiences, what ideas do we have and what can we suggest to the Org and to these camps (again, in general) to help them integrate into the ways of Burning Man? If you feel they're doing it all wrong, what constructive ideas do you have to help them turn things around and do things right?

The plug and play thing will never go away as long as that thing in the desert is around with theme camps and villages. It is an unavoidable consequence of pulling together people from all over the world into camps, like the example above about our camp and our Japanese crew. I think the problem that would come into play by trying to limit or curtail this activity is what criteria is utilized to say no, your plug in play is bad, but your plug and play is good? I can fill out a theme camp ap that will make me look like the next best thing since HELCO and make absolutely no mention that I am bringing in 35 VIP's that have paid me $8k a head to enjoy a luxurious week's vacation in the desert. I wind up pretty much not doing really anything I stated I was going to do in my application and next year, my sidekick fills out the application, etc and we get placed again with rinse and repeat.

We can make all manner of complaints about the practice, but what the fuck can actually be done to stop it if there is no indication until everything is dust side that it has happened? Call in Johnny Law to move them out?


The only thing that can be done about it is for the community to reject it. It's up to *us* to be the collective that we believe BM is supposed to be. Just as the org sues to protect the BM trademark, it's up to us to alert them to people attempting to profit in ways that run counter to the essence of the event.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:50 am

Dr Jet Sinister wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
yagotetra wrote:Do you have any sense of humor?
I don't think so

Dr Jet Sinister wrote:Completely irrelevant to the ongoing discussion.

So this is not the time to wade in with:
I know Dr Jet Sinister, I am a friend of Dr Jet, and I'm here to tell you, the person you are describing is no Dr Jet Sinister
?

Thank you Fishy. :)

De nada.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby percussivepaul » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:00 am

How about a counterfactual, Janus?

Lots of people have talked about things being "over the line" for them. It's a good exercise in communication to try to define that line, and to figure out what set of conditions would cause you to change your mind. For myself, I am firmly against the idea of plug and play camps. I would change my mind if someone could demonstrate some or all of the following:
1. That there are some "good" plug and play camps and some "bad" ones, and that it would be unfair to dismiss the good ones because of the bad ones -- especially if the bad ones tend to be exceptions, bad apples if you will.
2. That plug and play camps are not damaging the fabric of the event, or that the damage is small or nothing to worry about. Or, that these camps are neutral or are even beneficial to the event.
3. That it is possible to stop the damage to the event plug and play camping can cause, without stopping the practice itself (in which case let's do it, and the problem is solved).

I don't accept that plug and play is here to stay, or that we can't and shouldn't fight it. I recognize that some of these points are matters of opinion, and that I am setting a high standard for someone to change my mind, because they will be very hard to demonstrate or prove. Still, I think it helps open conversation if we are honest about where we stand. Janus, I feel from your posts that you have made up your mind on the issue which means there is no point in having a discussion except to spread your point of view. Since the whole point of this post was to open a conversation, I would like to see you describe what it would take to convince you that plug and play camps are harmful to the event, which is what many people here seem to believe. (It would be great if everyone who feels strongly about this could do the same, to be honest.)
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby VultureChow » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:02 am

Dr Jet Sinister wrote:
The only thing that can be done about it is for the community to reject it. It's up to *us* to be the collective that we believe BM is supposed to be. Just as the org sues to protect the BM trademark, it's up to us to alert them to people attempting to profit in ways that run counter to the essence of the event.



BMOrg could do something. They control placement and early access. If a camp or a camp's organizer has a history of poor MOOPing or lack of interactivity, they can be denied placement, or early access. Those are privileges. That doesn't mean the PnP camps aren't allowed to happen, but it makes it more difficult for them and is entirely within the bounds of BM policy. If an outright ban in unenforceable or just plain wrong, there's no reason to not use the available tools to discourage such behavior.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby some seeing eye » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:13 am

I've camped with and set up infrastructure for camps of 3-500. Dues and not. Every dues camp was set up to subsidize the organizers monetarily. The two most interesting vectors in the PnP discussion for me are ORG support and socialization support.

Can-should-would the ORG and its non-profit successor support PnP camps with placement, MV approval, early entry, support vendor access, even locating on the grid? In exchange for higher revenues?

What is the value of, and cost to the ORG, and committed participants, for PnP guests to deeply understand the experience in a lifechanging way, and take that learning to their rest of year/ rest of life culture making. This is the "paid" instant friends issue vs PnP participant's (really most people's) distrust of strangers.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Dr Jet Sinister » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:17 am

VultureChow wrote:
Dr Jet Sinister wrote:
The only thing that can be done about it is for the community to reject it. It's up to *us* to be the collective that we believe BM is supposed to be. Just as the org sues to protect the BM trademark, it's up to us to alert them to people attempting to profit in ways that run counter to the essence of the event.



BMOrg could do something. They control placement and early access. If a camp or a camp's organizer has a history of poor MOOPing or lack of interactivity, they can be denied placement, or early access. Those are privileges. That doesn't mean the PnP camps aren't allowed to happen, but it makes it more difficult for them and is entirely within the bounds of BM policy. If an outright ban in unenforceable or just plain wrong, there's no reason to not use the available tools to discourage such behavior.


That does happen to any camp that placement makes a note of, but in this case I was addressing Smashy's post:
CapSmashy wrote:I can fill out a theme camp ap that will make me look like the next best thing since HELCO and make absolutely no mention that I am bringing in 35 VIP's that have paid me $8k a head to enjoy a luxurious week's vacation in the desert. I wind up pretty much not doing really anything I stated I was going to do in my application and next year, my sidekick fills out the application, etc and we get placed again with rinse and repeat.

In this scenario, there isn't really anything the org could or would do to prevent someone else from changing the name of the camp and the names of the organizers and bringing their camp again. The mods on this board kill spambots when they show up, but it's the preventative measures that prevent this board from being overrun like it was last year. Ending business practices like this one http://bboutfitter.com/ *is* something they could do with their lawyers. Otherwise, it's up to the community to discourage the continued behavior.
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