Principal #1

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Re: Principal #1

Postby BBadger » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:15 am

Eric wrote:
socks wrote:The theme camps were too big to fail and had to be bailed out at others expense.Gee sounds like we heard this before.This is a money grab for the BM.org.They were able to sell almost half of the 53,000 tickets at the highest tier.Yes 25,000 tickets were sold at 390 and 420 each.


Just a minor technicality: those 10,000 tickets sell for $390 regardless if they sell to theme camps or if they had gone for the Open Sale. They are making zero dollars different on that, so if it's a money grab they're far stupider than you think.


We wouldn't want a little fact like that to get in the way of some sensationalist bullshit.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby atomosk » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:58 am

I don't think anyone is to blame for ever taking a ticket offered to them. There should never be any guilt, we all understand and would do the same. The BMORG still seems to be at fault for giving in to pressure and changing courses mid stream in a way that's less fair to the overall community. I don't like the precedence it sets that some groups are more equal than others. The whole point in my mind was that BMORG offers the venue for anyone to participate however they see fit and all attendees are participants, and the tacit acknowledgement that this is a presentation highlighting some camps above others is offensive to everything the event meant to me. This is a violation of principal. But I do feel very good for everyone who is getting a ticket and don't expect that they have to earn it somehow, owing to those same principals.

However, I have seen some people on the boards, obviously getting tickets through camps, who seem to be taking the anger at what BMORG has done personally and feel inclined to defend BMORG and their camp. Just want to point out it's ok to defend yourself for taking an offered ticket or being a beneficiary of BMORG's scheme, you've done nothing wrong, but to suggest you flat out deserved it more or you're special is insulting.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby alt12 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:21 pm

atomosk wrote:I don't think anyone is to blame for ever taking a ticket offered to them. There should never be any guilt, we all understand and would do the same. The BMORG still seems to be at fault for giving in to pressure and changing courses mid stream in a way that's less fair to the overall community. I don't like the precedence it sets that some groups are more equal than others. The whole point in my mind was that BMORG offers the venue for anyone to participate however they see fit and all attendees are participants, and the tacit acknowledgement that this is a presentation highlighting some camps above others is offensive to everything the event meant to me. This is a violation of principal. But I do feel very good for everyone who is getting a ticket and don't expect that they have to earn it somehow, owing to those same principals.

However, I have seen some people on the boards, obviously getting tickets through camps, who seem to be taking the anger at what BMORG has done personally and feel inclined to defend BMORG and their camp. Just want to point out it's ok to defend yourself for taking an offered ticket or being a beneficiary of BMORG's scheme, you've done nothing wrong, but to suggest you flat out deserved it more or you're special is insulting.


I couldn't agree more. I've actually heard the Animal Farm phrase "we are all equal but some more equal than others" used by two separate people regarding this matter. A lot of people don't like the precedence it sets and hopefully this does' become a permanent part of the event but I wouldn't blame anyone for accepting tickets doled out by the powers that be to those they chose.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:29 pm

atomosk wrote:However, I have seen some people on the boards, obviously getting tickets through camps, who seem to be taking the anger at what BMORG has done personally and feel inclined to defend BMORG and their camp. Just want to point out it's ok to defend yourself for taking an offered ticket or being a beneficiary of BMORG's scheme, you've done nothing wrong, but to suggest you flat out deserved it more or you're special is insulting.


What makes it "obvious" that anybody's getting tickets through camps?

I'm not saying my camp deserves anything more. I'm saying perhaps other groups deserve it more. If tickets somehow trickle down to us, great. We'll live up to the promises we made in the theme camp placement questionnaire. Which is a lot. We're promising to invest thousands of dollars as a collective to bring something useful to the city by a certain time, and we're promising to stick around and make sure our area and the areas around us are as clean as we found them.

Registering a theme camp is an implicit promise to volunteer; to do something more than to just eat, drink, piss, shit, fuck and jaw-jack on the playa. People can do that at Starbucks, and theme campers pay for their tickets just like everybody else. We're burners too. We're just like individual campers, except the registered camps have already made a formal and public promise to Black Rock City, and the veteran camps have already proven that they can bring it. That is worth more to the community than a similar number of non-volunteer individuals.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:35 pm

I have very mixed feelings about those camp tickets. Very, very...
I agree that it does create a level of two legs baaaatter, and I don't like it. I hope I don't get one, because it would feel tainted to me. But I also care about my camp and about other camps and hope that they (and my friends who camp there) will be on-playa.
I tell myself that the insurance company or blm forced the llc to be "safe."
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Re: Principal #1

Postby 5280MeV » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:17 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:I have very mixed feelings about those camp tickets. Very, very...
I agree that it does create a level of two legs baaaatter, and I don't like it. I hope I don't get one, because it would feel tainted to me. But I also care about my camp and about other camps and hope that they (and my friends who camp there) will be on-playa.
I tell myself that the insurance company or blm forced the llc to be "safe."


I am with you on the mixed feelings. This is a strange situation - I feel a deep sense of agreement with people on both sides of the argument. I watch myself flip-flop.

Please don't feel bad about your Morlock ticket if you get one. I felt bad about my Eloi ticket for a while, but then got over it.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Galaxo Magic » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:52 pm

Elliot wrote:
M. Bison wrote:"Principal #1: No prerequisites exist for participation in our community."

Never mind the ticket crap. I want a literacy test as a prerequisite for participation on ePlaya.

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Re: Principal #1

Postby alt12 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:26 am

theCryptofishist wrote:I agree that it does create a level of two legs baaaatter, and I don't like it.


Four legs good! Two legs bad!
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Re: Principal #1

Postby atomosk » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:31 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
atomosk wrote:However, I have seen some people on the boards, obviously getting tickets through camps, who seem to be taking the anger at what BMORG has done personally and feel inclined to defend BMORG and their camp. Just want to point out it's ok to defend yourself for taking an offered ticket or being a beneficiary of BMORG's scheme, you've done nothing wrong, but to suggest you flat out deserved it more or you're special is insulting.


What makes it "obvious" that anybody's getting tickets through camps?

I'm not saying my camp deserves anything more. I'm saying perhaps other groups deserve it more. If tickets somehow trickle down to us, great. We'll live up to the promises we made in the theme camp placement questionnaire. Which is a lot. We're promising to invest thousands of dollars as a collective to bring something useful to the city by a certain time, and we're promising to stick around and make sure our area and the areas around us are as clean as we found them.

Registering a theme camp is an implicit promise to volunteer; to do something more than to just eat, drink, piss, shit, fuck and jaw-jack on the playa. People can do that at Starbucks, and theme campers pay for their tickets just like everybody else. We're burners too. We're just like individual campers, except the registered camps have already made a formal and public promise to Black Rock City, and the veteran camps have already proven that they can bring it. That is worth more to the community than a similar number of non-volunteer individuals.


The obviousness is usually along the lines of people talking about what their camp does or will do, so it's in that they're pretty much saying their camp has or is expected to have tickets. I recall one post along the lines of "My camp is special because we have ice cream so fuck you." And that is a large commitment, and people do spend thousands to bring a camp out. But I would dispute the concept that we need the same theme camps to come out. A lot of other people also spend thousands of dollars and host events and require a crew to pull of their vision who don't have the prime placement. Taking time to wander the back streets rather than the esplanade is more rewarding, more fun, and often the people who should be running the camp are present just as often as a registered theme camp. I believe fervently that there would not have been a dearth of participatory theme camps this year had BMorg not taken this step, and creative mash ups or inviting new people to participate in existing projects would have made for an interesting year. Most camps are small domes with events or art, and like camps like Picasso or Snowflake, they are nowhere near the scale of the few camps like Root Society.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:00 pm

atomosk wrote:I believe fervently that there would not have been a dearth of participatory theme camps this year had BMorg not taken this step, and creative mash ups or inviting new people to participate in existing projects would have made for an interesting year.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Corvus » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:23 am

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Re: Principal #1

Postby junglesmacks » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:57 am

I'm just praying that Bassnectar gets a ticket. It's not BM without Bassnectar.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby DrYes » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:43 am

atomosk wrote: I don't like the precedence it sets that some groups are more equal than others.


You mean like early entry passes, which are given to hand-picked groups every single year? Giving some groups precedence because they contribute more to Burning Man than others is nothing new.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby HandJamMasterC » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:22 pm

You mean like early entry passes, which are given to hand-picked groups every single year? Giving some groups precedence because they contribute more to Burning Man than others is nothing new.


And some of us pre-placed theme camps participate in programs like Feed The Artists, as a thank you and a way to give back and contribute even more in exchange for things like early placement.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Trishntek » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:19 pm

If it wasn't for early entry, it would not be worth the trouble to build our camp for 3 days just to take it down again 3 days later. That's just fuckin' stupid.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:45 pm

Yeah, I want to say that if there wasn't early entry, there wouldn't be theme camps ready at 12:01 am Monday. The problem with that is that the counter-argument is that if we don't make sure good theme camps are in the event, there will be nothing ready on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, yadda, yadda, yadda. I can't articulate why I accept one or the other. So I side-stepped the question...
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Re: Principal #1

Postby lemur » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:04 pm

if there wasnt early entry i wouldnt be able to be all like: OH YEAH WELL I BEEN HERE FOR 5 DAYS ALREADY SO FUCK OFF when everyone shows up and ruins my burnier than thou tourist free dance music free paradise!!!!

(edit: and missing the 4:20 spire thing would be a bummer)
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Re: Principal #1

Postby pink » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:25 pm

Not to mention missing the whole entrance line thing. I've only done the entrance thing for my first burn: I figured out early entrance (at least for Sunday) my second year. Volunteer for an early cafe shift!!!

But now thanks to TnT I get to see the city come up and go down again. And that is worth working your butt off for a few days before...
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Re: Principal #1

Postby atomosk » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:36 am

DrYes wrote:
atomosk wrote: I don't like the precedence it sets that some groups are more equal than others.


You mean like early entry passes, which are given to hand-picked groups every single year? Giving some groups precedence because they contribute more to Burning Man than others is nothing new.


At first I thought, this is a good point, that this is part of an arbitrary decision, but then that idea fell apart. This is apples to oranges for several reasons, not the least of which is that Early entrance is completely disconnected from the ticketing. You still need a ticket just like everyone else, purchased the same way before you get an early entrance pass. In that there's no inequity. Getting an early entry pass doesn't give arbitrary value to your mere presence in a direct act of excluding someone else.

Moreover, most people don't have the time or ability to enter the event all that early. This is a far smaller group who are all getting in who have to specifically request early entry based on justifiable need, so the demand for early entry vs. availability is very balanced regardless of the ticketing situation. If you didn't get an early entry it probably wasn't vital to your project and at no point is your project being deemed vital to the event.

Granting early entry for some is a practical concern giving people more build time and harms no one. Giving theme camps tickets this year is a fearful reaction that is only a practical concern if there's zero faith that the community would participate, and inclusion, self reliance and innovation are victims.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby BonnyBrown » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:30 pm

Looks like those running BM these days don't follow their own principles. If I don't end up selling off my tickets for some extra cash I'll be sure to ignore them as well, enjoy paying people to pick up my moop!
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Re: Principal #1

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:41 am

atomosk wrote: But I would dispute the concept that we need the same theme camps to come out. A lot of other people also spend thousands of dollars and host events and require a crew to pull of their vision who don't have the prime placement.


I don't think the placement has anything to do with it. I'm just saying that some camps have a demonstrated record of getting it done.

I did Battlebots etc, in the US and Robot Wars in England. We got paid to go to England because the production company knew that we'd show up with the machines they needed to keep the show interesting. We wasted a lot of newbies on 56 TV networks worldwide because people made a lot of promises to the company just so they could fly to London and get their kid on TV.

It's a matter of record of who has done what, who cleans up their shit, which camps respect the community. By giving those people access to the tickets--they still pay for 'em--the org ensures the survival of the culture.

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atomosk wrote: Taking time to wander the back streets rather than the esplanade is more rewarding, more fun


I agree to an extent, but, that's your opinion. There is absolutely no shortage of opportunity for what you're describing to happen. The overwhelming majority of burners will have the opportunity to see what you describe for themselves.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:44 am

BonnyBrown wrote:Looks like those running BM these days don't follow their own principles. If I don't end up selling off my tickets for some extra cash I'll be sure to ignore them as well, enjoy paying people to pick up my moop!


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Re: Principal #1

Postby RedHeaven » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:21 am

5280MeV wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:I have very mixed feelings about those camp tickets. Very, very...
I agree that it does create a level of two legs baaaatter, and I don't like it. I hope I don't get one, because it would feel tainted to me. But I also care about my camp and about other camps and hope that they (and my friends who camp there) will be on-playa.
I tell myself that the insurance company or blm forced the llc to be "safe."


I am with you on the mixed feelings. This is a strange situation - I feel a deep sense of agreement with people on both sides of the argument. I watch myself flip-flop.

Please don't feel bad about your Morlock ticket if you get one. I felt bad about my Eloi ticket for a while, but then got over it.


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Re: Principal #1

Postby 5280MeV » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:33 pm

RedHeaven wrote:
5280MeV wrote:
Please don't feel bad about your Morlock ticket if you get one. I felt bad about my Eloi ticket for a while, but then got over it.


That last line is awesome, hope you don't mind if I quote you in my sig


Oh please do! I am a big advocate of the Time Machine metaphor.

You see, the ape-like and brutish theme-campers, sculptors, and mechanics (Morlocks) build this wondrous city for the beautiful lottery winners (Eloi) who are free to frolic and dance around in their underwear. In exchange, the Morlocks get to ... well ... this is where the metaphor gets kinda dirty.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Eric » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:43 am

5280MeV wrote:You see, the ape-like and brutish theme-campers, sculptors, and mechanics (Morlocks) build this wondrous city for the beautiful lottery winners (Eloi) who are free to frolic and dance around in their underwear. In exchange, the Morlocks get to ... well ... this is where the metaphor gets kinda dirty.


Yet accurate... :twisted:



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Re: Principal #1

Postby socks » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 pm

If you don't have tickets you are Fucked
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Re: Principal #1

Postby tamarakay » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:07 pm

socks wrote:If you don't have tickets you are Fucked


Now see, I would consider being Fucked a good thing. So, congrats!
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