Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

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Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Oso » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:02 pm

The Winter Classic NHL hockey game will be held Jan. 1 at Michigan Stadium:
(A) They are expecting 115,000 people in a space that is a fraction of the size of Black Rock City
(B) These 115,000 people will be driving to and from this event through a populated area where a large existing population live and work – unlike the area surrounding Black Rock City where high traffic volumes affect very few. Is the possibility of a traffic jam really the issue???
And the problem with expanding the capacity of Burning Man is………?

What is “maximum capacity”?
We don’t cap the populations of New York City or Los Angeles…… in fact, every city in the US finds ways to expand when there is a growing population. Why not Black Rock City??
Let’s cap the population of the USA and not let anyone else in.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby ygmir » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:04 pm

perhaps perusing the myriad of threads, with discussions about just this subject, would help you on your way to enlightenment, Grasshopper.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby junglesmacks » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:04 pm

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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby CornMan » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:08 pm

I take it not many people here have been to hajj. They are going to build a train that goes to Mecca for the sole purpose of the pilgrimage.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby ygmir » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Zeke Chaparral wrote:I take it not many people here have been to haj.


not me.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby lemur » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:06 am

Zeke Chaparral wrote:I take it not many people here have been to hajj. They are going to build a train that goes to Mecca for the sole purpose of the pilgrimage.


hajj is about the only reason there is any tourism to saudi arabia.

getting 3,000,000+ people around aint easy, yo.

they build permanent structures to support hajj..

Saudi Arabia considers serving the guests of God an honor, and dedicates vast manpower and financial resources to the proper conduct of the pilgrimage. Over the past four decades, it has spent billions of dollars to expand the Holy Mosque in Makkah and the Prophet's Mosque in Madinah, as well as establishing modern airports, seaports, roads, lodging, and other amenities and services for the pilgrims.

http://www.saudiembassy.net/issues/hajj/


its also run by the govt.. they dont need a 'permit' for hajj and can build as much permanent stuff as they want..

it brings in billions.. $30 might be high... just a casual look shows numbers anywhere from $5 to $30billion per year

Saudi Arabia's annual revenue from organizing pilgrimage to Islamic holy places tops $30 billion, an Arab newspaper reported on Sunday.

"The figure covers travelling, accommodation and living expenses, as well as cost of animals for sacrifices," Gulf News, based in the United Arab Emirates, said.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20091129/157028042.html
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby AntiM » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:14 am

When traveling from Taif to Jeddah, we had to take "The Christian Bypass" so we'd not even approach Mecca. Huge four lane highway built in the middle of nowhere just in case an infidel was commuting.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Simon of the Playa » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:30 am

lighten up on the monkey, he's from canada, he can't help it...


silly monkey, go drink some more breakfast.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Arnoldo » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:50 am

junglesmacks wrote:Image


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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby DrYes » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:49 am

Oso wrote:The Winter Classic NHL hockey game will be held Jan. 1 at Michigan Stadium:
(A) They are expecting 115,000 people in a space that is a fraction of the size of Black Rock City
(B) These 115,000 people will be driving to and from this event through a populated area where a large existing population live and work – unlike the area surrounding Black Rock City where high traffic volumes affect very few. Is the possibility of a traffic jam really the issue???
And the problem with expanding the capacity of Burning Man is………?

What is “maximum capacity”?
We don’t cap the populations of New York City or Los Angeles…… in fact, every city in the US finds ways to expand when there is a growing population. Why not Black Rock City??
Let’s cap the population of the USA and not let anyone else in.


I know you mean well, but posting things like this (which have been discussed to death over and over and over and end up making you seem like a naive newbie) is just throwing raw meat to the lions.

a) The maximum capacity is determined by the BLM, not by Burning Man. The BLM rightly doesn't really give a fuck if not everyone who wants to party in the desert for a week can make it.
b) I promise you that the transportation infrastructure to get people to Michigan Stadium is about a billion times better than the shitty two-lane road between Reno and the playa.
c) The entry and exit lines are already absurdly long. Have you been to Burning Man yet? If not, you'll understand once you have - the lines are epic. Five hour+ waits are common.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Trishntek » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:09 pm

So to put it in plain-as-possible terms, it is approximately 90 miles from I-80 to BRC. Highway 447 is a 2-lane road with little or no shoulder and a few passing lanes on the hills. It is 75 miles from Wadsworth to Gerlach with a few small villages along the way. Each of these villages has strongly enforced speed limits of 25MPH.

Surely the OP has seen the larger-than-life contraptions which end up on the playa. This two-lane highway handles all the logistical traffic which facilitates the event PLUS all the art, MV's and theme camps. Add to that roughly TWENTY-THOUSAND overloaded vehicles of sizes ranging from motorcycles to 24-wheel oversize semi-trailer trucks and heavy equipment.

I would venture to guess that there are multiple entrances and exits from a stadium of any reputable size and those in attendance often carpool and bus in to save parking issues. They attend ONE EVENT and leave with the clothes on their back. They can leave in at least 4 different directions and not contend with 75% of their "neighbors" the rest of the trip.

Burners bring EVERYTHING they need for a week or two and take EVERYTHING they brought with them out again. It all boils down to a 10 mile-long bottle neck which only allows one-vehicle-at-a-time for 100% of attendees and an 80 mile-long bottle neck for at least 80% of the attendees.

It's all about logistics. You cannot even begin to compare Burning Man with any other event because of its remote location and the logistics of each person bringing EVERYTHING THEY NEED for an entire week or more.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Rice » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:14 pm

Trishntek wrote:So to put it in plain-as-possible terms, it is approximately 90 miles from I-80 to BRC. Highway 447 is a 2-lane road with little or no shoulder and a few passing lanes on the hills. It is 75 miles from Wadsworth to Gerlach with a few small villages along the way. Each of these villages has strongly enforced speed limits of 25MPH.

Surely the OP has seen the larger-than-life contraptions which end up on the playa. This two-lane highway handles all the logistical traffic which facilitates the event PLUS all the art, MV's and theme camps. Add to that roughly TWENTY-THOUSAND overloaded vehicles of sizes ranging from motorcycles to 24-wheel oversize semi-trailer trucks and heavy equipment.

I would venture to guess that there are multiple entrances and exits from a stadium of any reputable size and those in attendance often carpool and bus in to save parking issues. They attend ONE EVENT and leave with the clothes on their back. They can leave in at least 4 different directions and not contend with 75% of their "neighbors" the rest of the trip.

Burners bring EVERYTHING they need for a week or two and take EVERYTHING they brought with them out again. It all boils down to a 10 mile-long bottle neck which only allows one-vehicle-at-a-time for 100% of attendees and an 80 mile-long bottle neck for at least 80% of the attendees.

It's all about logistics. You cannot even begin to compare Burning Man with any other event because of its remote location and the logistics of each person bringing EVERYTHING THEY NEED for an entire week or more.


100%

The simplest way for burners to speed up their entrance and exit to/from BRC is to cooperate amongst themselves. You know, work together to solve the problem. The issue is thousands of "burners" all wanting to get themselves back to the default world at the same time, and getting upset when other people have the same idea. I find the irony of that quite interesting. Maybe if the coordinated themselves the traffic would be manageable.

Nah, just blame Burning Man LLC for all kinds of factors beyond their control... That makes more sense.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Oso » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:01 pm

"Nah, just blame Burning Man LLC for all kinds of factors beyond their control... That makes more sense."

(Not about blame.)

I have now seen the error of my ways.... there is no way to accomodate more people and there is no way to manage more traffic.

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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Oso » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:09 pm

Image
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Trishntek » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:42 pm

Oso wrote:Image

This is a pile of thousands of humans for an afternoon observing 22 guys play a game
Retrofrolic2011SatPic.jpg

This is my home in a city where humanity expresses its ability to create by participating with thousands.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Rice » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:03 pm

Oso wrote:"Nah, just blame Burning Man LLC for all kinds of factors beyond their control... That makes more sense."

(Not about blame.)

I have now seen the error of my ways.... there is no way to accomodate more people and there is no way to manage more traffic.

To dream the impossible dream, to fight the unbeatable foe, to bear with unbearable sorrow, to run where the brave dare not go....

[btw - I am in no way a bm newbie. I just seem like one]

You can post pictures.

You can criticize me, after I make a suggestion. A suggestion, which could be used by everyone at Burning Man - for free. Which would certainly help the congestion during the entry to and exodus from Burning Man. No, instead - you latch onto a fact and then utter defeatist remarks...

Try making a suggestion yourself. At worst it us unworkable. But at least you tried.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby svetlanaxx » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:23 am

Wow, people get treated like dirt here just for asking a simple question.
As if anyone should have to sit here and digest every tread before speaking.
I like BM but there sure are some arrogant self-entitled teets lurking.

You clowns must be fun to party with. :evil:
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby pink » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:37 am

Easiest way to beat Exodus is to plan on leaving Tuesday after the burn. Biggest problem is no car washes & no NDN taco stands.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby BBadger » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:33 am

svetlanaxx wrote:Wow, people get treated like dirt here just for asking a simple question.
As if anyone should have to sit here and digest every tread before speaking.


If you can't spend the time to do a little basic reading, why should you expect us to spend any more time patiently answering your basic questions?

Yes, we can expect people to spend some time to do some reading/research, and also get a "feel" for what is up with a forum. And yes, there are such things as "stupid questions": questions that waste the time of the people who are being asked because of a lack of responsibility on part of the questioner.

Oso was "chewed out" not because he asked a question, but because he asked a question on a subject--and creating an entirely new thread to do so--that could have been answered easily with a little bit of effort. Maybe next time he'll have a little more social awareness.

I like BM but there sure are some arrogant self-entitled teets lurking.


The kind of teets who lurk until they feel to make an account just to complain about forum responses? I guess they're not as bad as the ones who create new threads as their first post to say the same thing as 5-6 other threads in the same forum.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Oso » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:45 am

115th post
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Part Time » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:51 am

Consider this..
I've sat in line and counted cars leaving BRC on Monday, the most was 16 to 18 vehicles a minute hitting 447.
Granted the Black Rock playa is big and would hold 100's of thousands, but not the road...
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby wraith » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:10 am

Part Time wrote:Consider this..
I've sat in line and counted cars leaving BRC on Monday, the most was 16 to 18 vehicles a minute hitting 447.
Granted the Black Rock playa is big and would hold 100's of thousands, but not the road...


And that right there, as has been brought up in no less than a dozen threads this week is the entire reason the BLM caps our attendance. Because noone involved wants to spend the millions of bucks it costs to upgrade and maintain a 4-lane highway out to the Playa when it'll only see heavy traffic two weeks a year.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Leo » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:05 am

Hey Oso,
Snark is one of the extra services we offer at no extra cost.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Rice » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:50 am

pink wrote:Easiest way to beat Exodus is to plan on leaving Tuesday after the burn. Biggest problem is no car washes & no NDN taco stands.


I left on Tuesday afternoon and was able to have an amazing indian tacco. I cannot completely remember the location, but I think it was between Gerlach and Empire.

There always is the potential that so many people leave on Tuesday that there will be line-ups.

Having said that, this year (2012) is going to be unique in many ways. Basically no one knows, for sure, what exactly is going to happen ;)

Plan for the worst, hope for the best and usually something in between will happen....
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Rice » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:59 am

svetlanaxx wrote:Wow, people get treated like dirt here just for asking a simple question.
As if anyone should have to sit here and digest every tread before speaking.
I like BM but there sure are some arrogant self-entitled teets lurking.

You clowns must be fun to party with. :evil:


I have been on eplaya for a while now. Every year the same, basic, questions get asked hundreds of times. Many times a simple google search would provide the answer (just add "eplaya" to the google query). So, depending on who sees the question they will either direct them to the answer, answer the question, or give a bunch of useless snark. The general rule of thumb is to wait until more than a page of responses on a particular thread before the snark starts. Unfortunately, many, many new people have joined eplaya just to complain, or offer the same suggestions that a couple hundred other new eplayans have. So, those who have been here for a few years are getting a lot less tolerant than in the past. (I try to give useful info, but let my temper get the better of me at times. )

Don't forget it is easier to be an asshole in an anonymous internet forum. Most of these "jerks" are awesome in person ;) and yes, we clowns are fun to party with.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Oso » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:03 am

Oh man, I just shoulda kept my fingers away from thread posting or maybe just quietly posted under another thread, such as "What a effin joke" or "Build a tunnel"!

I'm a dreamer, and we all know that there isn't any place for that here. Anyways, it's just a stupid discussion thread that won't make much of a difference to Burning Man or the world at large. Or.........

Okay, so at the risk of getting toasted:
(A) We all know that there IS enough space to expand the population out on the playa.
(B) There are creative ways of the handling the traffic to enable this expansion - like registering for a specific times to arrive and leave (there will always be a few emergencies and exceptions). Most events, including this one, have immutable start times and end times. Tickets could indicate your "time window" for arrival and departure. I would prefer knowing when I have to arrive and leave rather than no admission at all (the present situation). Anyways, that's one idea.

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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Trishntek » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:07 am

And,,,, what happens if you arrive before or after the appointed time? It will still be a clusterfuck.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby quadraspleen » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:12 am

wraith wrote:And that right there, as has been brought up in no less than a dozen threads this week is the entire reason the BLM caps our attendance. Because noone involved wants to spend the millions of bucks it costs to upgrade and maintain a 4-lane highway out to the Playa when it'll only see heavy traffic two weeks a year.


Someone's done the math though! (last post by bradtem)

http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?f=290&t=53892&start=120

There's always someone willing to do the math..Where was that theodolite, now...
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Oso » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:24 am

Trishntek wrote:And,,,, what happens if you arrive before or after the appointed time? It will still be a clusterfuck.


What happened in the past if you arrived before the gates opened? Tickets could be issued with a strong warning NOT to arrive at the wrong time.... kinda like it's always been done.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby junglesmacks » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:28 am

Oso wrote:(A) We all know that there IS enough space to expand the population out on the playa.



Why is this so difficult to understand? YES there is enough room on the playa to expand.. but NOT in the surrounding infrastructure/roadways. Period. Until you either have door to door train service or two more lanes on 447, IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN and it's not UP to the BMORG! It's the BLM!

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