BMORG: The first scalpers.

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BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Cabbie » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:56 am

I'm not mad at BMORG that I didn't get a ticket. I can't fault BMORG for trying something for the first time and ending up in epic failure. Shit happens. Edison tried how many unsuccessful light bulbs?
What DOES get me fried is all the sanctimonious, hollier-than-thou bullshit admonishing ticket holders to sell tickets at face value, below face value or gift them. Let us not forget: BMORG saw what happened last year, wanted to get in on the action and sold 3,000 tickets in December at $420, way over the top-tier price.
BMORG may not be the greediest scalpers, but they were the first.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby lemur » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:01 am

but theyve been doing the pre-sale since at least 2008. (for 2009s burn)
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby lemur » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:03 am

and certainly sooner! 'resurrecting'

my JRS doesnt go back further and neither does my memory.. surely someone could clarify further

"
Burning Man Update: The Jack Rabbit Speaks
Volume 13, Issue #6: SPECIAL TICKET PRE-SALE EDITION
November 6, 2008

by popular demand, we're resurrecting the Burning Man Ticket Pre-Sale! Yep, we're putting 1,000 Burning Man tickets on sale before the holidays this year so you can get your holiday on and gift tickets to your loved ones (or heck, your enemies ... fine with us). So yeah, exactly 1,000 shiny new tickets go on sale Friday, November 14 at 10am PST. Read on for details."
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Cabbie » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:32 am

Thanks, Lemur. I wasn't aware of that. I'm curious: What was the price of those first pre-sale tickets? At such a premium as this year?
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby quadraspleen » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:27 am

This year they were 30 bucks more than tier 3. Not really a premium, is it?

Some burners have money - Shock!! :shock: They like to get in first. Why is that bad? Are they bad? is the BMORG bad for doing this? I don't get it..I didn't buy any pre-sale tix, but my mate tommy no-good did and now he's the one going :mrgreen: is he bad?

Lots of judgement going down around these parts

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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby 5280MeV » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:37 am

I really don't get how $420 can be considered excessive for a major international event of this length, scale, and remoteness.

Hell, most 5-day physics conferences that I go to cost more than this - and they have a similar system to BM in that most talks and posters are the contributed freely by the people paying the conference fees. Most of the conference organizers are volunteers.

Also, unless you live in easy driving distance of Reno, the ticket simply cannot be the bulk of your expenses, I just don't understand how that is possible. Even driving cross country in a 40 mpg vehicle is something like 100 gallons of gas, which I am guessing optimistically would be around $400 this summer. Then there are hotel / campground / food costs.

Coming from 2150 miles away, I cannot see how to reasonably keep my total burn cost much under $2000. Just the clothing and lighting project costs are adding up. If I really wanted to make nothing, contribute to nothing financially, not get any new gear, really be skimpy on giving gas money to a shared ride, then maybe I could get it a bit under $1500. Even then how big a difference is it between a $240 ticket and a $420 ticket?

$1500 versus $1320 - I can't see how that difference would be make or break.

I guess the view from the West coast is completely different, but here in the East I find the whole thing to be an expensive logistical mess. Kinda fun to figure out, but an expensive logistical mess nonetheless.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby moonrise » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:02 am

5280MeV wrote:I really don't get how $420 can be considered excessive for a major international event of this length, scale, and remoteness.

Hell, most 5-day physics conferences that I go to cost more than this - and they have a similar system to BM in that most talks and posters are the contributed freely by the people paying the conference fees. Most of the conference organizers are volunteers.

Also, unless you live in easy driving distance of Reno, the ticket simply cannot be the bulk of your expenses, I just don't understand how that is possible. Even driving cross country in a 40 mpg vehicle is something like 100 gallons of gas, which I am guessing optimistically would be around $400 this summer. Then there are hotel / campground / food costs.

Coming from 2150 miles away, I cannot see how to reasonably keep my total burn cost much under $2000. Just the clothing and lighting project costs are adding up. If I really wanted to make nothing, contribute to nothing financially, not get any new gear, really be skimpy on giving gas money to a shared ride, then maybe I could get it a bit under $1500. Even then how big a difference is it between a $240 ticket and a $420 ticket?

$1500 versus $1320 - I can't see how that difference would be make or break.

I guess the view from the West coast is completely different, but here in the East I find the whole thing to be an expensive logistical mess. Kinda fun to figure out, but an expensive logistical mess nonetheless.


Not sure if this helps, but West coasters usually spend as much or much, much more to make the burn good.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Dr Helix » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:09 am

quadraspleen wrote:This year they were 30 bucks more than tier 3. Not really a premium, is it?

Some burners have money - Shock!! :shock: They like to get in first. Why is that bad? Are they bad? is the BMORG bad for doing this? I don't get it..I didn't buy any pre-sale tix, but my mate tommy no-good did and now he's the one going :mrgreen: is he bad?

Lots of judgement going down around these parts

jake out


I can relate to this. I wrote about it in an earlier thread, that I was thought of as being "elitist" for putting in for the pre-sale lottery. $420.00? That's not even 10% over the top tier. But now people are calling me and want to know if I have any "elitist" tickets to sell them. I don't even tell people I have tickets any more for fear they think I'm gloating. How crummy is that?
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby moonrise » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:18 am

Dr Helix wrote:
quadraspleen wrote:This year they were 30 bucks more than tier 3. Not really a premium, is it?

Some burners have money - Shock!! :shock: They like to get in first. Why is that bad? Are they bad? is the BMORG bad for doing this? I don't get it..I didn't buy any pre-sale tix, but my mate tommy no-good did and now he's the one going :mrgreen: is he bad?

Lots of judgement going down around these parts

jake out


I can relate to this. I wrote about it in an earlier thread, that I was thought of as being "elitist" for putting in for the pre-sale lottery. $420.00? That's not even 10% over the top tier. But now people are calling me and want to know if I have any "elitist" tickets to sell them. I don't even tell people I have tickets any more for fear they think I'm gloating. How crummy is that?


Yep, same boat. I did the pre sale because it offered more chances (it was/is a lottery afterall!) and was more convenient, enter once and you've entered for the whole shit show. Who knew we would win, I sure didn't expect to win a pre sale (I thought I'd lose, hands down!) and I know the others I'm aware of that entered the pre sale lottery didn't expect to win either. Whatever, I have my one tic and I'm going. See ya in da dust...
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby drutter » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:11 pm

Cabbie wrote:BMORG may not be the greediest scalpers, but they were the first.

I do see what you're saying, and agree. Yes, they knew there would be a mad ticket scramble this year, and yes, they effectively gouged via the early ticket sales. It coulda been much worse, though. I have a feeling a lot of people are going to pay $1000 and up just for their ticket this year.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby JStep » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:16 pm

FAIL.

Selling tickets to an event that you host at a value you determine is not scalping. Scalping: to resell (tickets, merchandise, etc.) at higher than the official rates. The LLC is the seller, not a reseller and they set the official rate, therefore they cannot, by definition, fit the description of scalper.

Bonus points for trying though. I'm sure this thread will go on for months now.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Trishntek » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:25 pm

Actually, the original price for the 10,000 open sale tickets WAS to be $420 or the price of tickets at gate if they were to sell gate tickets this year. There is a premium to be paid for being able buy tickets "before they go on sale". If it was the price of lower tier tickets, the applications would have been just as overwhelming as the lottery was.

BMORG could just make all tickets $420. Would that make it better? It seems the manner in which they offer the tier system, low income tickets and scholarship tickets is an expression of their interest in all inclusiveness. The pre holiday sale is a premium because it is the PRIME, FIRST IN LINE, TIP THE DOORMAN kind of opportunity.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby quadraspleen » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Trishntek wrote:BMORG could just make all tickets $420. Would that make it better? It seems the manner in which they offer the tier system, low income tickets and scholarship tickets is an expression of their interest in all inclusiveness. The pre holiday sale is a premium because it is the PRIME, FIRST IN LINE, TIP THE DOORMAN kind of opportunity.


Exactly. Why this is considered elitist, or the ppl who bought them elitist is beyond me. It's also my understanding that these same "high price" tix subsidise the low-income program. That's Robin Hood shit right there and should be applauded, not disparaged IMO. If ppl can afford to pay extra, and it helps those that can't, it's fair play in my book..
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Dr Helix » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:09 pm

quadraspleen wrote:
Trishntek wrote:BMORG could just make all tickets $420. Would that make it better? It seems the manner in which they offer the tier system, low income tickets and scholarship tickets is an expression of their interest in all inclusiveness. The pre holiday sale is a premium because it is the PRIME, FIRST IN LINE, TIP THE DOORMAN kind of opportunity.


Exactly. Why this is considered elitist, or the ppl who bought them elitist is beyond me. It's also my understanding that these same "high price" tix subsidise the low-income program. That's Robin Hood shit right there and should be applauded, not disparaged IMO. If ppl can afford to pay extra, and it helps those that can't, it's fair play in my book..


Nothing that altruistic in my decision to put in for the pre-sale. Just figured the more chances to hit, the better. It goes back to the same thing said over and over here; a ticket is just a small part of the expense of going to BM. I mean $30.00? That's 2 qts of vodka. I'm guessing I'll spend alot more before I leave.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Eric » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:42 pm

quadraspleen wrote:Exactly. Why this is considered elitist, or the ppl who bought them elitist is beyond me.


Anyone who has a ticket is considered elitist by some, regardless of how they got it. We saw the same thing last year after the sell-out: suddenly every person who had managed to get a ticket in the first 7 months they were on sale was an "elitist" to the people who were caught with their pants down (I won't even go into the minutia of that). This year anyone who had the luck to win in the lottery is an elitist, even though they had the same chance as every other entry (roughly 1 in 3). Note I don't say "as every other Burner", because we don't know who gamed the system or who was in it for scalping. We do know that every entry that didn't get scrubbed had a 1 in 3 chance of "winning" (wild guess based on the numbers flying around suggesting 120,000 tickets were requested)
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby graidawg » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:54 pm

fuck if i am elitist for wanting to get home enough to pay an extra $30 for going home call me elitist. i prefer burner but thats because i am an elitist snob.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby ZaphodBurner » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:57 pm

lemur wrote:Burning Man Update: The Jack Rabbit Speaks
Volume 13, Issue #6: SPECIAL TICKET PRE-SALE EDITION
November 6, 2008

by popular demand, we're resurrecting the Burning Man Ticket Pre-Sale! Yep, we're putting 1,000 Burning Man tickets on sale before the holidays this year so you can get your holiday on and gift tickets to your loved ones (or heck, your enemies ... fine with us). So yeah, exactly 1,000 shiny new tickets go on sale Friday, November 14 at 10am PST. Read on for details."


Thanks Lemur!! :wink:

We didn't buy in the pre-sale because blowing $840 on ourselves a month before Christmas seemed a little narcissistic considering we have a five-year-old girl, nephews, nieces, etc. whom we sent books and art supplies every year. I do not want to judge others who bought them for themselves, because their circumstances are different.

I always thought the pre-sale was for gifting and when somebody called me on it, I couldn't remember where I'd come up that idea.
It would suck if you couldn't gift a loved one a holiday ticket because all of the theme camps had hoarded them.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby ZaphodBurner » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:25 pm

moonrise wrote:Not sure if this helps, but West coasters usually spend as much or much, much more to make the burn good.
FWIW we appreciate and respect that long distance burners do spend so much time and money to burn with us.


Indeed! Awesome!

My friends, who didn't get tickets, are spending thousands of dollars on a trailer just to haul the camp and the mutant vehicle, and I spent a couple of thousand on Aemma (MV) in 2010 and it didn't even get registered. I, uh... couldn't even take it out of camp.

On the other hand, Exodus is 30% of our travel time, we don't have to buy plane tickets, and if we have a really cool idea we want to take to the playa, we don't have to worry about how we're going to get it there. We can drive down to the desert pretty much anytime we want.

My wife and I couldn't go last year but we met a couple who bought scalped tickets for over a thousand each because one of them was terminally ill and wanted desperately to say goodbye to Black Rock City. THAT instantly put all of my issues into too much perspective. I think most who buy from scalpers simply think their issues are more important than everybody else's or the greater good of the city. Well, hers was, and he fulfilled her wish. It's not my story to tell, but, the ending is fucking awesome and they are awesome people.

It's not about money, it's about the city. Let's build something and set it on fire!
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby quadraspleen » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:40 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
It's not about money, it's about the city. Let's build something and set it on fire!


Fuckin' A to that, sir.

P.s I want to run away and live in Oregon. Maybe see you there as well as in the dust!
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby BBadger » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:26 pm

Cabbie: that word doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:25 pm

drutter wrote:Yes, they knew there would be a mad ticket scramble this year...

They didn't know. They were astonished that demand is what it is and are kinda flailing themselves.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Trishntek » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:59 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
drutter wrote:Yes, they knew there would be a mad ticket scramble this year...

They didn't know. They were astonished that demand is what it is and are kinda flailing themselves.

Before last year, the event never sold out and, therefore; 50-55k was sufficient for demand. The guess for last year was maybe 60k since they did not sell out until July. Nobody could have imagined the demand DOUBLING in one year. NOBODY IS THAT FUCKING OPTIMISTIC! not even me!
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby BBadger » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:37 am

Yes, double demand, but I would hold that most of it is inflated demand brought on by uncertainty surrounding the lottery. My hope is that out of the ashes of all this that people are able to better gauge how to react to future circumstances and ticket schemes. Maybe this year will sort out the fair weather burners from the lifetime burners and be a good long-term "inoculation."
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Eric » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:52 am

BBadger wrote:Yes, double demand, but I would hold that most of it is inflated demand brought on by uncertainty surrounding the lottery.


That's my line of thinking as well. All those people who in the past kinda sorta thought about going and when they finally did decide they wouldn't even think about getting tickets until June or July... those people had to enter the lottery as well, because after the sellout they knew there probably weren't going to be any June or July tickets. All the "maybe's" had to by tickets, all the dreamers who won't ever actually make it; they all had to enter the lottery.

While I don't think we'll see enough tickets hit the market so that everyone who wants one gets one, I certainly expect to see "a lot" hit come July. Doesn't do much for theme camps that need to prepare, but for individual & small camp Burners who can be ready in a few weeks... could be good.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Cabbie » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:08 pm

@BBadger
Admittedly, it was a bit of hyperbole. No, the folks at BMORG are not truly "scalpers" in that they are not buying the tickets at one price and then selling them at a profit. But is the cost-per-burner $420? I don't think so. Did the they knock off a quick, extra $90,000 in the December presale? (3,000 tickets times $30 over the "Top tier" price? [A top-tier that was, btw, $30 above last year's top tier price, netting another $450,000.]) Yes. So all I'm saying is its a little disingenuous for BMORG to preach the ethos of "sell at cost, lower, or gift", when they themselves appear to be taking advantage of the new market realities.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:14 pm

Not hardly. They could have charged $500, and tickets would probably be selling out. They could eliminate the low income program and the first two tiers.
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby trilobyte » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:20 pm

As was stated publicly, the additional cost of the pre-sale tickets went to help offset the lowest tier (which increased in number by 2K tickets from last year) as well as growing the number of tickets made available in the low income program (4K tickets this year, from 3500 in the combined low income and scholarship programs last year).
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby Cabbie » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:43 am

My request of the historians out there: What were the ticket prices and quantities of each Tier last year? Here's how this year breaks down:
4000 @ $160 $640,000
10000 @ $240 $2,400,000
15000 @ $320 $4,800,000
15000 @ $390 $5,850,000
3000 @ $420 $1,260,000
Total: $14,950,000

How does that stack up against last year's gate?
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Re: BMORG: The first scalpers.

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:45 am

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