Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby Stephendragonfly » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:00 pm

How do we get tickets out of the hands of scalpers/opportunists that we are assuming currently have over half??

The suggestion I have seen most is making the tickets non-transferable, i.e. names or pictures on tickets.
Also have seen convention style listing of names as a possibility.

Both have the same downsides of wiping out spontaneous gifting of tickets and making the wait to get even more horrendous than it already is.

Have seen suggestion of making the tickets print at home/super easy to duplicate, but with unique identifiers, so that it would be impossible to trust anybody but a close friend or tickets directly from the Borg.

I think that semi-transferable tickets (ticket printed with the name of purchaser who must then be present with id and entering for admission of all of his tickets, with a max of four tickets per purchaser) would work out better than totally non-transferable tickets. So you could gift a ticket, but you'd have to give your giftee a ride to (and hopefully from) BRC.

Heck, if Bmorg announced that as a policy tomorrow, a lot of scalpers would probably surrender their tickets to STEP, and BMorg might not even have to follow through with it.

Another random thought, did Borg scan for scalpers before or after the drawing, so that if known scalpers or ticket gimmicking companies had their number drawn, that ticket was immediately transferred into the STEP pool?? Just curious.
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:04 pm

Stephendragonfly wrote:Another random thought, did Borg scan for scalpers before or after the drawing, so that if known scalpers or ticket gimmicking companies had their number drawn, that ticket was immediately transferred into the STEP pool?? Just curious.

Yes, the llc "scrubbed" the list.

Read up on the procedures before you start critiquing them. Please. We have had so many people bring up the same points over and over, more than half the time starting gratuitous new threads that I've gone beyond disgust, gone beyond hatred, and have just settled into a toxic stew of noxious vapor...
Wait...hm...
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby Stephendragonfly » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:59 pm

@Crypto,
I reread the ticket FAQs on the BM site... Should have done it before I hit enter, my apologies. I planned to be processing my low income application today, so I am little miffed as well. I think I'll take a nice long walk, that usually helps me get out of a snit.
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby bradtem » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:27 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Stephendragonfly wrote:Another random thought, did Borg scan for scalpers before or after the drawing, so that if known scalpers or ticket gimmicking companies had their number drawn, that ticket was immediately transferred into the STEP pool?? Just curious.

Yes, the llc "scrubbed" the list.

Read up on the procedures before you start critiquing them. Please. We have had so many people bring up the same points over and over, more than half the time starting gratuitous new threads that I've gone beyond disgust, gone beyond hatred, and have just settled into a toxic stew of noxious vapor...
Wait...hm...
Things are so bad I'm compulsively mixing my metaphors. The wolves are howling outside and there's scratching at my door...


The list was scrubbed, but dragonfly is suggesting more than that, namely that it might be possible to detect scalpers after the fact and cancel their tickets.

For example, at least in some jurisdictions, since the contract terms forbid scalping, the org could try to buy tickets from scalpers (using credit cards) and after getting them, canceling the credit card transaction -- though you need to work with the CC companies to do this and it is necessary that the scalping be illegal as well as a violation of contract terms I suspect. Having done this you could cancel the other ticket from a pair. In a way, allowing only 2 each makes it harder to detect scalping after the fact, unless you saw a pattern in the pairs.

Of course, we all are assuming a lot of scalpers but we've yet to get hard evidence on what the actual breakdown of ticket applyers was.
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:49 pm

Stephendragonfly wrote:so I am little miffed as well.* I think I'll take a nice long walk**, that usually helps me get out of a snit.


*makes sense
**no comment
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby KestrelSF » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:23 pm

I went to the Theme Camp Placement Forum at Burning Man HQ tonight and it was a really positive meeting. The feeling was "we hear you, we know we had to do something, we've deliberated and are now taking decisive action". The meeting stayed on track, and surprisingly on time. There was a lot of good energy in the room, good information and I'm feeling a lot better about the prospects of this years burn after the meeting. I'm sure they knew that there would be folks upset about the pre selection of what theme camps were going to be awarded the remaining tickets. But what they are doing is ensuring that virtually none of the remaining tickets will be bought by speculators, which means to me they really did listen to folks. There was really no discussion about scalpers, with one question from a video conference participant on the subject of scalping that was skipped. I could tell that they've been trying to figure it when I saw a white board filled with numbers and percentages where meetings took place and they tried to "do the math" themselves. The attitude seems to be "well, we don't really know what number are in the hands of speculators but there isn't a damn thing we can do about the tickets already sold anyway so we are going to concentrate on what to do with the ones we have left to sell." And really that's kinda exactly where they need to be right now. Action was needed, they are taking action. It may not be perfect, but I do like that they are ensuring that pretty damn near 100% of the remaining tickets are going to participants and I like those numbers.
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby Colonel Monk » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:56 pm

KestrelSF wrote:I went to the Theme Camp Placement Forum at Burning Man HQ tonight and it was a really positive meeting. The feeling was "we hear you, we know we had to do something, we've deliberated and are now taking decisive action". The meeting stayed on track, and surprisingly on time. There was a lot of good energy in the room, good information and I'm feeling a lot better about the prospects of this years burn after the meeting. I'm sure they knew that there would be folks upset about the pre selection of what theme camps were going to be awarded the remaining tickets. But what they are doing is ensuring that virtually none of the remaining tickets will be bought by speculators, which means to me they really did listen to folks. There was really no discussion about scalpers, with one question from a video conference participant on the subject of scalping that was skipped. I could tell that they've been trying to figure it when I saw a white board filled with numbers and percentages where meetings took place and they tried to "do the math" themselves. The attitude seems to be "well, we don't really know what number are in the hands of speculators but there isn't a damn thing we can do about the tickets already sold anyway so we are going to concentrate on what to do with the ones we have left to sell." And really that's kinda exactly where they need to be right now. Action was needed, they are taking action. It may not be perfect, but I do like that they are ensuring that pretty damn near 100% of the remaining tickets are going to participants and I like those numbers.


Yeah, that's kind of the expected reply coming from people who are gonna get a ticket out of that decision.

What about the rest of us who have volunteered, and have built mutant vehicles, and have been part of theme camps and art installations but are not an official part of those things this year?

Taking 100% of the last great hope the community had to buy tickets and ensuring that they all go to select burners isn't the right answer either. You think the cavalry just rode thru and Burning Man is saved? Alot of us here are not feeling it.

Unfortunately, I'm in the group of people that knows you don't need a limitless number of big theme camps for a successful burn. Yes, they are a big part of the experience but there are SO MANY now, that a few years ago my friend tried to go to as many as he could in a week (small ones too) and barely sleeping he couldn't visit them all, and couldn't remember most of them. Personally, the art projects, dive bars, and mutant vehicles resonate with me much more and I don't think the same favoritism will be shown to these people.

What do I do with the 100s of hours and 1000s of dollars that I put into my mutant vehicle now? Do I keep paying storage on it when I know I can't use it? Can't really sell it? Can't share it with people? How do I cook dozens of pounds of french fries for our community? I'm less important I guess? Why am I less important with the high number of newbs that are coming to burning man to mark it off their bucket list?

I honestly think the only way to truly be fair and at least somewhat practice radical inclusion is to completely redo the ticket draw. Same price, same chance for all veterans, but pick 80-85% veterans in the drawing. Sorry, but though it is important to include Newbs, can't help but feel that we were at this party first and we will make room but you can't all fit.

At least that sort of exclusion has something to do with making sure that all the people who HAVE made the event what it is have a chance to attend. What they've done so far is give better chances to people with the deepest pockets, and those in the popularity contest.
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:08 am

Colonel Monk wrote:
KestrelSF wrote:I went to the Theme Camp Placement Forum at Burning Man HQ tonight and it was a really positive meeting. The feeling was "we hear you, we know we had to do something, we've deliberated and are now taking decisive action". The meeting stayed on track, and surprisingly on time. There was a lot of good energy in the room, good information and I'm feeling a lot better about the prospects of this years burn after the meeting. I'm sure they knew that there would be folks upset about the pre selection of what theme camps were going to be awarded the remaining tickets. But what they are doing is ensuring that virtually none of the remaining tickets will be bought by speculators, which means to me they really did listen to folks. There was really no discussion about scalpers, with one question from a video conference participant on the subject of scalping that was skipped. I could tell that they've been trying to figure it when I saw a white board filled with numbers and percentages where meetings took place and they tried to "do the math" themselves. The attitude seems to be "well, we don't really know what number are in the hands of speculators but there isn't a damn thing we can do about the tickets already sold anyway so we are going to concentrate on what to do with the ones we have left to sell." And really that's kinda exactly where they need to be right now. Action was needed, they are taking action. It may not be perfect, but I do like that they are ensuring that pretty damn near 100% of the remaining tickets are going to participants and I like those numbers.


Yeah, that's kind of the expected reply coming from people who are gonna get a ticket out of that decision.



i attended the theme camp forum (not in person) ..the energy was pretty good in the room..

but BUT.. when they informed people that only about 50% of the theme camps will get anything,.. and that they wont find out if they get anything until after applying for placement..... i tell ya, on my end of the connection.. i didnt hear much cheering.

only about 50% of the theme camps will get anything.. it was said so in the theme camp forum.. possibly many of the people in that room werent gonna be one of the groups selected..

so.. its easy to say 'YEAH EXPECTED REPLY FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE GONNA GET A TICKET' but at this point.. itd be pretty hard to be 'sure' you were gonna get one unless you were one of the 'obvious' choices and mainstays of burning man.. and even at that, you arent guaranteed 100% of the tickets you want, and maybe even need.. so yeah.. i wouldnt be too happy right now if i was one of those theme camps kind of 'in the middle' .. if you arent Opulent Temple.. or some big gigantic village.. you might be kinda in 'oh shit' mode right now.

there are likely very few camps who are feeling 100% OK right now!
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:26 am

Wow, uh, wait a sec.....

Are you saying that 10,000 tickets is ONLY about 50% of the ticket demand for theme camps? Does it really take more than 20,000 tickets to get theme camps into Burning Man?

If that's the case, then seems like maybe there is too many. I can't support a decision to put all the remaining tickets into the hands of a certain group of veteran burners.

Reminds me of university, where I wasn't part of the fraternities and sororities, I was a god damn independent, and proud of it. I didn't follow the drum of popularity...

I'm such a hypocrite. I like newbs, I really do - but in this environment of scarcity, I honestly don't feel they deserve the chance to acquire more tickets as a group than the independent veteran burners, who not only participate in the burn but do it alone, creating art and mutant vehicles, performing music and dance, etc....

When you come back your second year ready to dig in, you're on equal footing with everyone, but we all know there's a pretty large number of first timers that don't come back. They check it off their bucket list and then they are onto the next item. We don't need them that first year to hold burning man, and we don't miss them when they don't return. It's a bit strong of a word, but they are expendable in a way - and until they come back and give back it's not that big a loss.

It is for this reason that I feel what has transpired with the tickets is so unjust. And I feel, the only way to remedy is to scrap everything that has happened so far, and start over. It didn't work, so why the hell wait till next year?

Dammit.....
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby KestrelSF » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:48 am

Colonel Monk wrote:Yeah, that's kind of the expected reply coming from people who are gonna get a ticket out of that decision.


I don't know if my camp has been selected or not yet. So I'm saying this with only a 50/50 shot. Which admittedly is better than someone that isn't in a camp that was registered last year. But guess I've already gone and shot my mouth off so I'll just have the STFU and suck it if we don't. Yeah, a good bit of the oxygen got sucked out of the room when I asked her to clarify the selection process and she let us know that only about 1/2 of the camps were selected. But there was an overall very positive mood in the room. My suggestion if you want to be assured a ticket would be go volunteer for some essential volunteer duty like cleanup crew. I got to chat with D.A. at dinner. We've never talked before and he's really amazing. He's there from late July to September. He says he has like a sense of what the MOOP is going to look like each year but this year ... he just doesn't know. Maybe we should change the theme this year from Fertility to Chaos ... like Loki chaos ... coyote. We have no idea what is gonna happen.
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:49 am

KestrelSF wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:Yeah, that's kind of the expected reply coming from people who are gonna get a ticket out of that decision.


I don't know if my camp has been selected or not yet. So I'm saying this with only a 50/50 shot. Which admittedly is better than someone that isn't in a camp that was registered last year. But guess I've already gone and shot my mouth off so I'll just have the STFU and suck it if we don't. Yeah, a good bit of the oxygen got sucked out of the room when I asked her to clarify the selection process and she let us know that only about 1/2 of the camps were selected. But there was an overall very positive mood in the room. My suggestion if you want to be assured a ticket would be go volunteer for some essential volunteer duty like cleanup crew. I got to chat with D.A. at dinner. We've never talked before and he's really amazing. He's there from late July to September. He says he has like a sense of what the MOOP is going to look like each year but this year ... he just doesn't know. Maybe we should change the theme this year from Fertility to Chaos ... like Loki chaos ... coyote. We have no idea what is gonna happen.


I didn't realize that that when I posted, somehow I didn't see the "only 50%" thing in the announcement, all I saw was "I'm SOL"...

Yes, I have volunteered. I attempted to join the rangers a few years ago and a badly healing knee injury kept me from being initiated (despite the fact I would never walk a shift anyway, I'd ride a bike - and I finished my shift, they just felt that the injury would impede my abilities in a pinch.. :( ) I haven't been able to fully reattempt for the same reason, just had surgery again last month and recuperating now. I'm taking 6 months off work to try and heal, rehab and regain the strength I need to do this. So, yeah, it's killing me to not have a ticket, when I've gone all in with my life this year to make this happen. I'm living in my Burning Man RV "Charlene" so I can afford not to work and fix my issues that have kept me from volunteering the way I want to. When you volunteer direct for the org they do not hand out tickets, at least not for rangers... You have to work a minimum number of shifts (I think 30- 40 hours) to be eligible for a discounted ticket. It's a tough way to get a chance at a ticket.

Barring being able to do this officially, I still camp at Outpost Tokyo, I answer questions for burners all day, I unofficially ranger them when nobody is around, I fix bicycles, I tag cameras, I help open cars when people lock their keys in, I cook for our camp of volunteers, mix drinks, DJ, built an electric mutant vehicle and taxi people around the city, everything I can and then some to give back. Two years ago I stayed the week after the event and helped with Ranger Logistics, as well as breaking down the outpost and mooping the area. Was probably in the last few hundred people to leave the playa that year.

I'm not special, I'm like 1,000s of other people that have made this a huge part of my life. Unfortunately I'm just a person who goes religiously, and I'll probably only be missed by the people in my camp and some other acquaintances.

The thought of bucket-list spectators being able to attend while I am not is maddening. The Borg really messed up on this, there's got to be 100s or 1000s of folks like me that might not be able to go because of this effing mess. While I generally take the high road on stuff like this and am not easy to get upset, my dreams of finally participating the way I've wanted to all this time have been trashed now.

I think I'll go have a good cry, haha
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:05 am

yeah, it wasnt in the blog post.. or the placement email or the dmv email..

it was a question asked in the question part of the ticket info for people at the theme camp forum.. (and as all the other stuff was written by then, and going out to the masses.. it was probably a bit late to add it)

im sure it will come out in a more 'official' way at some point.. but even if it doesnt.... yeah, thats how it went down.. (kind of a bummer..)
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:26 am

lemur wrote:but BUT.. when they informed people that only about 50% of the theme camps will get anything,.. and that they wont find out if they get anything until after applying for placement.....

Just want to point out that if only 50% of theme camps get anything--there's no guarantee those 50% will get everyone in they ask for. I'm expecting skeleton staffs, not overflowing at seams.
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Re: Do the math: over 50% of tickets went to scalpers

Postby CapnJoe » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:44 pm

lemur wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:
KestrelSF wrote:I went to the Theme Camp Placement Forum at Burning Man HQ tonight and it was a really positive meeting. The feeling was "we hear you, we know we had to do something, we've deliberated and are now taking decisive action". The meeting stayed on track, and surprisingly on time. There was a lot of good energy in the room, good information and I'm feeling a lot better about the prospects of this years burn after the meeting. I'm sure they knew that there would be folks upset about the pre selection of what theme camps were going to be awarded the remaining tickets. But what they are doing is ensuring that virtually none of the remaining tickets will be bought by speculators, which means to me they really did listen to folks. There was really no discussion about scalpers, with one question from a video conference participant on the subject of scalping that was skipped. I could tell that they've been trying to figure it when I saw a white board filled with numbers and percentages where meetings took place and they tried to "do the math" themselves. The attitude seems to be "well, we don't really know what number are in the hands of speculators but there isn't a damn thing we can do about the tickets already sold anyway so we are going to concentrate on what to do with the ones we have left to sell." And really that's kinda exactly where they need to be right now. Action was needed, they are taking action. It may not be perfect, but I do like that they are ensuring that pretty damn near 100% of the remaining tickets are going to participants and I like those numbers.


Yeah, that's kind of the expected reply coming from people who are gonna get a ticket out of that decision.

I didn't hear it, sound was soooo bad, but I was told that our camp was mentioned during the forum. My wife and I didn't get tickets in the lottery, but I am possibly getting a $390 ticket for working last year. That is if I will work this year too, which I plan to do. Hope my wife can now get a ticket through our camp. This whole thing really sucks, but other than doing the whole thing over, which is said to be not possible, this is about the only thing that can be done to keep the whole thing from collapsing on itself. No matter what, everybody will not be satisfied, and it will not be fair to everyone. I really hate that things have worked out this way!

i attended the theme camp forum (not in person) ..the energy was pretty good in the room..

but BUT.. when they informed people that only about 50% of the theme camps will get anything,.. and that they wont find out if they get anything until after applying for placement..... i tell ya, on my end of the connection.. i didnt hear much cheering.

only about 50% of the theme camps will get anything.. it was said so in the theme camp forum.. possibly many of the people in that room werent gonna be one of the groups selected..

so.. its easy to say 'YEAH EXPECTED REPLY FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE GONNA GET A TICKET' but at this point.. itd be pretty hard to be 'sure' you were gonna get one unless you were one of the 'obvious' choices and mainstays of burning man.. and even at that, you arent guaranteed 100% of the tickets you want, and maybe even need.. so yeah.. i wouldnt be too happy right now if i was one of those theme camps kind of 'in the middle' .. if you arent Opulent Temple.. or some big gigantic village.. you might be kinda in 'oh shit' mode right now.

there are likely very few camps who are feeling 100% OK right now!
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