How Fuel efficient is your car?

All things outside of Burning Man.

What is your gas mileage"

Under 5 mpg (I funded 9/11)
3
1%
5-10 mpg (Dicked by Cheney)
5
2%
10-20 mpg (quasi-militant Green Peacer)
64
30%
20-30 mpg (I Dicked Cheney)
45
21%
30-40 mpg (I don't need no stinken war)
51
24%
40-60 mpg (Everyone Love's Me)
28
13%
60+ mpg (Only the Gods do better)
8
4%
I only use human powered vehicles!
11
5%
 
Total votes : 215

Re:

Postby wh..sh » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:25 am

I am in LOVE...
Isotopia wrote:Image
In my world there's only legible and more legible.

-Bob
User avatar
wh..sh
 
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:16 pm

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby Canoe » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:15 pm

Back in university days, there was a guy, not overly liked, who bought his first car: a VW Super Beetle.

He got astoundingly great gas mileage - for the first year. Bragged about it constantly to his engineering classmates. 60, 70 even 80 mpg! Tried special driving techniques and waxes trying to figure out what made the variances. Everyone politely and quietly listened. Profs wouldn't offer opinions when he tried to drag them into the discussion.

Then the gas mileage suddenly went down, drastically. He took it to a mechanic. Then to the round of specialty mechanics. A number of carb rebuilds later, no luck. None of the mechanics could find anything wrong. He kept insisting and trying and trying. Nothing would get back that great gas mileage. He was miserable.

Because, for that first year, his classmates took turns going by his place at night and putting a few gallons of gas into the tank...
*** http://www.burningman.com/preparation/ ***
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.
.
“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”
User avatar
Canoe
 
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:12 am

Homemade HHO to get 20-30 percent increase. With research, experimentation, and tweaking 60+ can be obtained. I dream of the day when I can go 100 percent HHO, I am poor so that day is not today. I am also a fan of veg oil in diesel motors with preheating of the oil and running diesel right before parking so as not to clog anything up if it winds up sittin. Gotta school myself more in GEET before playin with it on a bike but thats on the bucket list as well.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re:

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:15 am

dr.placebo wrote:
can't sit still wrote:Dr, you're showing your ignorance.

And you, CSS, are manifesting your credulity.

Now that we have the requisite ad hominem attacks out of the way, would you care to explain how using water as fuel actually works?


I can help in a simple explanation...

Internal COMBUSTION engines operate basically by having small explosions occur every time the cyl compresses and the spark plug sparks. Hydrogen is combustible, 2ms vs the 20+ms of gasoline. Hydrogen burns clean. Hydrogen can be made via electrolysis. Water + Baking Soda + Cathode + Anode + Electricity = Hydrogen. Youtube channel terrystech has a nice introduction to HHO using a Ball jar and stainless spatulas. This is a good first timer project and really cheap too. Like terry I also use a line thats only hot when the key is on for safety to drive my electrolytic process.

It should be noted that hydrogen production is a dangerous thing to do so please dont get into this unless you really understand it and take proper steps to ensure that no hydrogen production is occuring or being stored whilst the vehicle is off.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re:

Postby Canoe » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:17 am

dr.placebo wrote:...would you care to explain how using water as fuel actually works?

Then there's the Pantone engines. Water|hydro-carbon mix, typically gas or alcohol, ratio in the range of 95:5. Pre-heated in a specific design counter-flow air-to-air heat-exchanger, using the exhaust gases immediately after the exhaust manifold. Engine is started on its regular fuel and once at standard operating temperature, air input is diverted to source through the water-fuel mixture creating vapor that is drawn through the heat exchanger before entering the intake manifold.

No one seems to know why they work. Popular theories:
1. the waste exhaust heat breaks down the hydro-carbon fuel vapor down into smaller hydro-carbons (within the heat-exchanger in the presence of the water vapor so it doesn't ignite), thereby the combustion of these smaller/simpler hydro-carbons yields more energy when ignited in the engine.
2. that it is, or is aided by, a portion of the water vapor breaking down into oxygen and hydrogen. Last I checked no one has been able to measure if there is or isn't hydrogen in the heat-exchanger fuel-vapor output.
Intriguing is that Pantone setups appear to work better when the center rod in the heat-exchanger has a high nickel content...

But, as the exhaust gas temperature drops when running in Pantone mode, that energy has to be going somewhere. This is a good sign as with energy there is no free lunch. So there is a credible aspect to a Pantone setup: recycling waste heat back into the engine through the water|fuel heated vapor "method".

From the example gas and diesel engines converted to work aspirated , it doesn't appear to work well (if it works at all) with gas engines with any kind of spark pre-ignition as that will ignite the mixture prematurely (a high school in France documented that well).
Appears to be an easy conversion for aspirated diesels. Very popular with tractors and generators, pretty much anywhere there's a long running constant load (easier to get the regular fuel vs. water|fuel mixtures balanced?). Also very easy to construct and install the heat-exchanger on a tractor's vertical stack.
After running for a time, some conversions require a short time running on regular fuel again before switching back to the water-fuel mixture, or increasing the regular fuel's idle setting while running in Pantone mode. Getting around this, successes reported with fuel injected engines: when running at operating temperature with the fuel injection continuing at idle speed fuel feeds (providing a continuous heat source?) at the fuel-vapour aspirated feed providing throttle.
One guy has shown photos of his engine converted to Pantone on his helicopter! (tail number carefully hidden)
Most popular in France and Quebec.
*** http://www.burningman.com/preparation/ ***
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.
.
“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”
User avatar
Canoe
 
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: Re:

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:42 pm

Canoe wrote:
dr.placebo wrote:...would you care to explain how using water as fuel actually works?

Then there's the Pantone engines. Water|hydro-carbon mix, typically gas or alcohol, ratio in the range of 95:5. Pre-heated in a specific design counter-flow air-to-air heat-exchanger, using the exhaust gases immediately after the exhaust manifold. Engine is started on its regular fuel and once at standard operating temperature, air input is diverted to source through the water-fuel mixture creating vapor that is drawn through the heat exchanger before entering the intake manifold.

No one seems to know why they work. Popular theories:
1. the waste exhaust heat breaks down the hydro-carbon fuel vapor down into smaller hydro-carbons (within the heat-exchanger in the presence of the water vapor so it doesn't ignite), thereby the combustion of these smaller/simpler hydro-carbons yields more energy when ignited in the engine.
2. that it is, or is aided by, a portion of the water vapor breaking down into oxygen and hydrogen. Last I checked no one has been able to measure if there is or isn't hydrogen in the heat-exchanger fuel-vapor output.
Intriguing is that Pantone setups appear to work better when the center rod in the heat-exchanger has a high nickel content...

But, as the exhaust gas temperature drops when running in Pantone mode, that energy has to be going somewhere. This is a good sign as with energy there is no free lunch. So there is a credible aspect to a Pantone setup: recycling waste heat back into the engine through the water|fuel heated vapor "method".

From the example gas and diesel engines converted to work aspirated , it doesn't appear to work well (if it works at all) with gas engines with any kind of spark pre-ignition as that will ignite the mixture prematurely (a high school in France documented that well).
Appears to be an easy conversion for aspirated diesels. Very popular with tractors and generators, pretty much anywhere there's a long running constant load (easier to get the regular fuel vs. water|fuel mixtures balanced?). Also very easy to construct and install the heat-exchanger on a tractor's vertical stack.
After running for a time, some conversions require a short time running on regular fuel again before switching back to the water-fuel mixture, or increasing the regular fuel's idle setting while running in Pantone mode. Getting around this, successes reported with fuel injected engines: when running at operating temperature with the fuel injection continuing at idle speed fuel feeds (providing a continuous heat source?) at the fuel-vapour aspirated feed providing throttle.
One guy has shown photos of his engine converted to Pantone on his helicopter! (tail number carefully hidden)
Most popular in France and Quebec.



GEET is on my bucket list, I sawa wonderful GEET powered bike during Green after checkin out Chicken Johns pickup with a gasifier.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: Re:

Postby unjonharley » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:22 pm

dr.placebo wrote:...would you care to explain how using water as fuel actually works?


goole Oglemobile for your answer..
User avatar
unjonharley
 
Posts: 8833
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Location: Salem Or.

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby dr.placebo » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:04 pm

OK, I did look up Oglemobile, and I got the usual flood of contradictory gunk typical of urban legends. That does not prove it's wrong, of course, but it makes it hard to find anything useful. And the inventor died in 1981, so it is not easy to get more information from the source.

I did a similar search for Pantone engine (sifting out a lot of Pantone color false hits) and got another load of weird stuff. The only plausible gain of efficiency is by using the exhaust heat, but it was beyond tedious to separate any wheat from the chaff, so I gave up. I did find the encouraging news that the inventor was released from the Utah Mental Institute and was seeking donations, so perhaps a more complete explanation of the engine is forthcoming. The posted comment that "No one seems to know why they work" was short of encouraging, though.

My understanding of one posted claim is that water turned into steam and the expansion partly drove the piston. It takes thermal energy to make the steam, and you don't get back what you put in (see 2nd law of Thermodynamics). Since water is not consumed (it stays water) then it is not fuel.

My understanding of another posted claim that the water broke down into elements (H + O) and the energy came from recombination, again violating the 2nd law. Further, since water is not consumed, it is not fuel.

Now, if one can use wasted heat or chemical energy to improve efficiency then the approach is borderline plausible, but let's remember that typical car engines are already 25-30% efficient, so any claims of increasing mpg over 4X are certainly bullshit, and even 2X is highly suspect. This means that the 100+ mpg claims of the Oglemobile (160 mpg in city driving) for a modified engine (but otherwise conventional car of the 1970's) are not plausible.

In other words, my question stands: How can water be used as a fuel? Outside of fusion (no practical vehicular demonstration so far) or intensely radioactive water (unstable isotopes of elements) I know of nothing physically permitted. I will not give credit for non-fuel use of water (must extract energy and consume water), magic, alien technology, or any violations of the laws of thermodynamics.
User avatar
dr.placebo
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:03 pm
Location: Santa Cruz CA

Re:

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:52 pm

dr.placebo wrote:would you care to explain how using water as fuel actually works?




I will not even credit your vitriol about Paul Pantone and the horrendous abuse he suffered as a result of corrupt politicians with a defense in his name since he was released and got international recognition for his work.

If you are so addicited to opposing hydrogen and its combustability try to lobby for more fracking. If you dont understand electrolysis and how hydrogen is produced with a lil baking soda and electricity and water than please stop calling yourself a Doctor. Chris Hackett a beloved burner has demonstrated the combustion of hydrogen via HHO on his TV show Stuck with Hackett. The Hindenburg demonstrated the combustion for fawkes sake. You wouldnt by any chance be working for an oil company would you?
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: Re:

Postby ygmir » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:39 pm

BlackRockCityPimp wrote:
dr.placebo wrote:would you care to explain how using water as fuel actually works?



I will not even credit your vitriol about Paul Pantone and the horrendous abuse he suffered as a result of corrupt politicians with a defense in his name since he was released and got international recognition for his work.

If you are so addicited to opposing hydrogen and its combustability try to lobby for more fracking. If you dont understand electrolysis and how hydrogen is produced with a lil baking soda and electricity and water than please stop calling yourself a Doctor. Chris Hackett a beloved burner has demonstrated the combustion of hydrogen via HHO on his TV show Stuck with Hackett. The Hindenburg demonstrated the combustion for fawkes sake


. You wouldnt by any chance be working for an oil company would you?


*snickering*
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25999
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Re: Re:

Postby dr.placebo » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:46 pm

BlackRockCityPimp wrote:If you are so addicited to opposing hydrogen and its combustability try to lobby for more fracking. If you dont understand electrolysis and how hydrogen is produced with a lil baking soda and electricity and water than please stop calling yourself a Doctor.


Hydrogen is a fuel, and water is not. Producing hydrogen from water requires energy.

Hydrogen is potentially a very good fuel, since it burns so cleanly. However, there are a lot of engineering problems to solve before we can use it to replace hydrocarbons.

I do not support continued use of fossil fuels (beyond certain niche uses).

As far as I can tell, Pantone is another crank. I could be wrong, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
User avatar
dr.placebo
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:03 pm
Location: Santa Cruz CA

Re: Re:

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:07 am

dr.placebo wrote:
BlackRockCityPimp wrote:If you are so addicited to opposing hydrogen and its combustability try to lobby for more fracking. If you dont understand electrolysis and how hydrogen is produced with a lil baking soda and electricity and water than please stop calling yourself a Doctor.


Hydrogen is a fuel, and water is not. Producing hydrogen from water requires energy.

Hydrogen is potentially a very good fuel, since it burns so cleanly. However, there are a lot of engineering problems to solve before we can use it to replace hydrocarbons.

I do not support continued use of fossil fuels (beyond certain niche uses).

As far as I can tell, Pantone is another crank. I could be wrong, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.


Last I checked magnets and wires in motion generated electricity. I dont think we need to reinvent alternators or reverse wired electric motors from table saws and whatnot. Again electrolysis releases the hydrogen from the water in HHO. As far as Pantone tech goes I think youre just one of those earth is still flat people. When I Googled and Youtubed Pantone Engine I got different results than you claim to have gotten. Too bad you missed out on Greenman, I saw several HHO and GEET systems along with VegOil diesel and Gasifiers. I would mention hydrogen powered burners from an HHO cell being used to heat for a stirling Steam motor but since you dont believe in hydrogen production via electrolysis I will just consider you too smart for your own good.

Enjoy your shitty gas economy in what ever you drive while I get 65-68 mpg with HHO assist my gas 95 pickup from chevy. The real problem here is that the human race can no longer afford insanity such as yours anymore. We cannot allow the corporate greed to get in the way of sensible working solutions. There is plenty of water for fuel, we need to use it.

PS The Hydrogen geeks in Germany had their 30th anniversary / workshop this year. Also on youtube but in german language.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: Re:

Postby ygmir » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:58 am

BlackRockCityPimp wrote:
dr.placebo wrote:
BlackRockCityPimp wrote:If you are so addicited to opposing hydrogen and its combustability try to lobby for more fracking. If you dont understand electrolysis and how hydrogen is produced with a lil baking soda and electricity and water than please stop calling yourself a Doctor.


Hydrogen is a fuel, and water is not. Producing hydrogen from water requires energy.

Hydrogen is potentially a very good fuel, since it burns so cleanly. However, there are a lot of engineering problems to solve before we can use it to replace hydrocarbons.

I do not support continued use of fossil fuels (beyond certain niche uses).

As far as I can tell, Pantone is another crank. I could be wrong, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.


Last I checked magnets and wires in motion generated electricity. I dont think we need to reinvent alternators or reverse wired electric motors from table saws and whatnot. Again electrolysis releases the hydrogen from the water in HHO. As far as Pantone tech goes I think youre just one of those earth is still flat people. When I Googled and Youtubed Pantone Engine I got different results than you claim to have gotten. Too bad you missed out on Greenman, I saw several HHO and GEET systems along with VegOil diesel and Gasifiers. I would mention hydrogen powered burners from an HHO cell being used to heat for a stirling Steam motor but since you dont believe in hydrogen production via electrolysis I will just consider you too smart for your own good.

Enjoy your shitty gas economy in what ever you drive while I get 65-68 mpg with HHO assist my gas 95 pickup from chevy. The real problem here is that the human race can no longer afford insanity such as yours anymore. We cannot allow the corporate greed to get in the way of sensible working solutions. There is plenty of water for fuel, we need to use it.

PS The Hydrogen geeks in Germany had their 30th anniversary / workshop this year. Also on youtube but in german language.




interesting........do you generate the H while driving, or use compressed/bottled for your truck?
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25999
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby dr.placebo » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:04 pm

So I checked out the Plasmatron, because it has some good hits on Google Scholar. Kinda cool stuff, but what they claim are relatively modest improvements in efficiency. The big win is the large potential for reduction in NOx and soot, which makes diesel engines more acceptable in transportation (diesel is more efficient than spark ignition). I have not yet seen a full treatment of total system energy (it's not easy to find out about the energy cost for the plasma producers), but it seems quite possible that the overall effect is to increase energy efficiency. There is not the slightest suggestion from the Plasmatron folks that the laws of Therodynamics do not apply.

The one downside from the Plasmatron effort is that they have been flogging this development since about 1997, and have not managed much beyond the demonstration level. This probably means that there are unsolved engineering problems.

The relation between the Pantone engine and the Plasmatron is unclear. The reason that I can understand the Plasmatron material is that it uses the language of science to describe something that does not claim the impossible. The Pantone engine descriptions don't even come close to this standard, and tend to use the hand-waving language of wishful thinking. I'm holding out for real data.
User avatar
dr.placebo
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:03 pm
Location: Santa Cruz CA

Re: Re:

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:07 am

ygmir wrote:interesting........do you generate the H while driving, or use compressed/bottled for your truck?


I run my HHO to the wiper so its not producing while the vehicle is off. When the key gets turned production starts and hydrogen gets put into the intake before air cleaner. I dont recommend a tank of compressed for safety reasons though you will see some people that store hydrogen on youtube. I dont need to be too greedy as a little hydrogen goes a long way to improve mileage. It helps to lean out your gas flow to get up to 60+ from the 40 you will get by adding a 20 dollar homemade HHO like terrystech illustrated in youtube. With newer vehicles loaded with sensors you might have to do some more wiring work but theres plenty of folks that have BTDT and share the knowledge online via youtube, blogs, wikis, etc. Any car mechanic worth his/her salt should be able to help you make adjustments. A rule of thumb to follow is the older vehicle work much better with these improvements/repairs to bad engineering geared toward keeping profits for oil barons. Alcohol works great as a fuel too tho its now illegal to distill fuel from switchgrass etc.

Check terrystech channel on youtube, the ball jar and stainless spatula is really a great first timers method and costs less than 20 bucks. You will certainly save that in gas cost in less than a month. BUT new vehicles dont take well to this unless you dick around with the sensors, gas flow, programming of the puter etc. My older carb and tbi trucks handle it really nice with very little labor for the install.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby gyre » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:16 am

Gas engines are already limited by heat, and capable of more power with a leaner mixture.

How does H combat that?

Potential in higher combustion temperatures with evan's fluid, without destruction, seems possible.
User avatar
gyre
 
Posts: 15346
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: ΦάÏ

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:50 am

gyre wrote:Gas engines are already limited by heat, and capable of more power with a leaner mixture.

How does H combat that?

Potential in higher combustion temperatures with evan's fluid, without destruction, seems possible.


Couldnt tell ya how H combats heat. Dont think it combats anything, rather its combustability allows for cylinder movement when the spark plug goes off. Since H is in the combustion chamber less gas is needed along with it to move the cylinder. This results in less gas being used.

Its really not all that complex, an internal combustion engine operates from small explsions when fuel gets compressed and spark is provided via spark plug. Moonshiners were often able to outrun the police due to running alcohol instead of gas.

Any engine nerds out there ever try unsticking a frozen motor with a tiny amount of black powder when marvel mystery doesnt cut it? Ive always wondered if anyone was nutty enuff to try it. Mind you its supposedly a tiny amount of black powder to be used.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby gyre » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:22 am

You know about N2O, right?

And it's issues?
It has been used for efficiency before.
Performance and mileage are two sides of the same coin.

Engines have detonation issues, but beyond that there is simply too much heat for the structure.

There is already far more energy in petrol than most engines can exploit.
To a certain extent, most engines use fuel for cooling.

Evan's potential is not fully explored and most info is proprietary, but many people use it now for racing, many just for corrosion protection in diesels.

My 408 uses a high pressure water pump to stave off boiling in the cylinder head.
Compression is very high.
Good engine tuning, but not too radical.
Out of date electronics, stock nineties ford computer with tweaked sensors.
25 mpg highway, anywhere from 50-100mph, 450/450 at 6000 feet.
So there's a lot you can do without exotic engines.

Better tuning and electronics make big improvements, with the accompanying heat risk.
User avatar
gyre
 
Posts: 15346
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: ΦάÏ

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:24 am

gyre wrote:You know about N2O, right?

And it's issues?
It has been used for efficiency before.
Performance and mileage are two sides of the same coin.

Engines have detonation issues, but beyond that there is simply too much heat for the structure.

There is already far more energy in petrol than most engines can exploit.
To a certain extent, most engines use fuel for cooling.

Evan's potential is not fully explored and most info is proprietary, but many people use it now for racing, many just for corrosion protection in diesels.

My 408 uses a high pressure water pump to stave off boiling in the cylinder head.
Compression is very high.
Good engine tuning, but not too radical.
Out of date electronics, stock nineties ford computer with tweaked sensors.
25 mpg highway, anywhere from 50-100mph, 450/450 at 6000 feet.
So there's a lot you can do without exotic engines.

Better tuning and electronics make big improvements, with the accompanying heat risk.


The heat damage is why we can only use a little hydrogen while still using gas. HHO will giva ya better economy but you cant run just Hydrogen. You might be able to get 35-50 mpg by adding HHO in a setup like that. The most important thing to remember is to just use a little hydrogen. Dont get all caught up with these massive plate hydrogen cells people are making. Alot of those people are just showing off for youtube n such. Hydrogen production is very dangerous.

One of my most important projects to finish before I die is to make a pure hydrogen powered vehicle. My dream is a nice mostly titanium bike with a stirling steam engine with the boiler being heated via HHO production and the electrolysis being driven by a alternator attached to a large gear on the rear wheel. With current alloys it can be done much safer than in the times of when steam died. No more boilers blowin up etc. I started the design between Greenman and American Dream. Alot of credit has to be given to the Burningman community, especially the KSW crew. If it werent for KSW and people like LeChat I woulda never thought of reinventing the steam motor. KSW used coffee grind pellets if memory serves the one year, but after seein an HHO bike I got to thinkin.

For those that cant risk playin with their car or truck HHO can be applied to smaller motors, nothing like seein a lawnmower runnin on water.

GoPed has a 30cc propane motor, I wonder what sorta upgrades would be needed to get it to be able to stand up to hydrogen. I am sure its not that great of a motor, things jst arent made like they used to be.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby gyre » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:04 am

They still are, by some, but cost like they used to.


Why would hydrogen do anything not possible with N2O, in this case?
User avatar
gyre
 
Posts: 15346
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: ΦάÏ

Re:

Postby gyre » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:06 am

Isotopia wrote:Certainly doesn't seem to have kept my across the street neighbor from staying home.

Taken two days ago.

Why does anyone feel compelled to pay for (and drive) one of these.

And yes, it does start with a 'B.'

Image

A comment about the peculiar two tone styling used on most bugattis, from a german, on another forum I'm on.

"I can't believe that someone invested money to recreate the diaper look of the veyron. That is really the worst part of the Bugatti styling. A gorgeous (not beautiful) supercar wearing depends. Image"

Image
User avatar
gyre
 
Posts: 15346
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: ΦάÏ

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:54 am

Switched coolant in the truck to "engine ice", got it from summit. I was able to further decrease gasoline and increase hydrogen resulting in 82mpg. I know hydrogen isnt combustable on eplaya and that electrolysis as demonstrated in grade school science class isnt real science on eplaya. BUT with that being said, I just cant help myself here in defaultia gas prices and low wages force me to use water for fuel.

I plan on keeping an eye on my temp gage and eekin up the hydrogen flow and turning the knob from ebay to reduce gasoline, will update the thread with final gas mileage when I figure it out over the next coupla weeks. This "Engine Ice" coolant is the shiznit tho so even if you dont wanna save on fuel you might wanna chk it out.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby Canoe » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:14 pm

Sorry I was away from ePlaya for some time and only read this post now.

dr.placebo wrote:...
I did a similar search for Pantone engine (sifting out a lot of Pantone color false hits) and got another load of weird stuff. The only plausible gain of efficiency is by using the exhaust heat, but it was beyond tedious to separate any wheat from the chaff, so I gave up. ...
My understanding of another posted claim that the water broke down into elements (H + O) and the energy came from recombination, again violating the 2nd law. Further, since water is not consumed, it is not fuel.

A lot of weird stuff, but I weeded through several hundred pages of French language posts on people successfully implementing these engines. It's unlikely that anything new in technical explanation will be coming from the inventor - one of his original criteria for successful running requires that the core rod be oriented horizontally and along a North-South axis... but we can hope for practical info to filter out.
A lot of theories, but no data on how the Pantone engine actually works. The water breaking down to H + O is one, but so far the word is there's no way to get a H sensor in place to detect if that is happening. I say, why not?

But the encouraging thing is, the observed practical operation does obey the 2nd law: Once heated up and switched to running in "Pantone mode", it doesn't get "free energy" from anywhere, it recycles the waste exhaust heat into processing the water/fuel mixture into *something* that puts that energy back into the cylinders where that gives more power to the work out put of the engine, as evidenced by the drop in exhaust temperature. Extra work by the engine, less waste heat output...

I'd love to know how it does this (be it H & O, "plasma", breaking down complex hydro carbons into smaller hydro carbons, etc., or a combination of the prior), but I'm content - once I find the time - to work on the practical aspect of making an example work. Then I can worry about finding appropriate sensors to detect how it is happening. I've already designed and am tempted to add the heat-exchanger/converter assembly into my 258 six-in-line exhaust the next time the exhaust manifold needs work. But I'd like to implement it in something much smaller with a much smaller thermal mass. If you know of a very small 4-stroke suitable as a test bed?

dr.placebo wrote:...In other words, my question stands: How can water be used as a fuel? Outside of fusion (no practical vehicular demonstration so far) or intensely radioactive water (unstable isotopes of elements) I know of nothing physically permitted. I will not give credit for non-fuel use of water (must extract energy and consume water), magic, alien technology, or any violations of the laws of thermodynamics.


With the pantone, it may be that a portion of the water is broken down into H + O, but I find that unlikely, but there's enough plausibility there that until dis-proven, or a thorough proof of how it works is presented and scientifically verified, I have to consider it. What I suspect - without having built and run one myself - is that the water prevents pre-mature ignition while the hydro carbons in the fuel/water mixture is broken down into something less complex, thereby giving up more energy when combusted in the cylinder.

Not free energy, recycled heat. 2nd law upheld. This is why it encourages me.
*** http://www.burningman.com/preparation/ ***
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.
.
“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”
User avatar
Canoe
 
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby motskyroonmatick » Fri May 18, 2012 3:46 pm

With my purchase of a 2007 Prius I now get over 50 mpg and that's up from 19mpg. :P
Stag Camp 8, 2014. Black Rock City Welding and Repair.

When you pass the 4th "bridge out!" sign; the flaming death is all yours.-Knowmad-
User avatar
motskyroonmatick
 
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:37 am
Location: Aurora Oregon
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: StagCamp+B.R.C. Welding&Repair.

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby ygmir » Fri May 18, 2012 8:46 pm

motskyroonmatick wrote:With my purchase of a 2007 Prius I now get over 50 mpg and that's up from 19mpg. :P


oh Motz!...........

Image
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25999
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby motskyroonmatick » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:13 pm

Ha ha ha ha ha Yiggy!!!!!!!!!!! I totally did not catch that until now.

BTW I'm getting even better milage with the installation of LRR tires. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. It is a really fun car to drive. I already have a burning man sticker on it and I made it mine with a hand full of playa dust gathered from Golficus Carticus by throwing it on the hood emblem.

I still have The Worlds Greatest Box Truck so I do still get atrocious milage at times. :P 15mpg unladen and 10mpg at 18,000gvw.
Stag Camp 8, 2014. Black Rock City Welding and Repair.

When you pass the 4th "bridge out!" sign; the flaming death is all yours.-Knowmad-
User avatar
motskyroonmatick
 
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:37 am
Location: Aurora Oregon
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: StagCamp+B.R.C. Welding&Repair.

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby gyre » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:18 pm

motskyroonmatick wrote:I still have The Worlds Greatest Box Truck so I do still get atrocious milage at times. :P 15mpg unladen and 10mpg at 18,000gvw.

Nine 2000 lb cars would have to do 90 mpg just to match that.
User avatar
gyre
 
Posts: 15346
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: ΦάÏ

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby ygmir » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:23 pm

motskyroonmatick wrote:Ha ha ha ha ha Yiggy!!!!!!!!!!! I totally did not catch that until now.

BTW I'm getting even better milage with the installation of LRR tires. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. It is a really fun car to drive. I already have a burning man sticker on it and I made it mine with a hand full of playa dust gathered from Golficus Carticus by throwing it on the hood emblem.

I still have The Worlds Greatest Box Truck so I do still get atrocious milage at times. :P 15mpg unladen and 10mpg at 18,000gvw.


you're talking to a man with a 40' crane mounted on a multi-fuel M35 which might get 5 mpg.
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25999
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby motskyroonmatick » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:30 pm

ygmir wrote:
motskyroonmatick wrote:Ha ha ha ha ha Yiggy!!!!!!!!!!! I totally did not catch that until now.

BTW I'm getting even better milage with the installation of LRR tires. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. It is a really fun car to drive. I already have a burning man sticker on it and I made it mine with a hand full of playa dust gathered from Golficus Carticus by throwing it on the hood emblem.

I still have The Worlds Greatest Box Truck so I do still get atrocious milage at times. :P 15mpg unladen and 10mpg at 18,000gvw.


you're talking to a man with a 40' crane mounted on a multi-fuel M35 which might get 5 mpg.


But the work it gets done at 5 mpg is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!
Stag Camp 8, 2014. Black Rock City Welding and Repair.

When you pass the 4th "bridge out!" sign; the flaming death is all yours.-Knowmad-
User avatar
motskyroonmatick
 
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:37 am
Location: Aurora Oregon
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: StagCamp+B.R.C. Welding&Repair.

Re: How Fuel efficient is your car?

Postby shroom » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:04 am

When I answered this poll this first time I had a truck, I now have a 2010 Chevy Camaro. It gets 20-22 mpg which is better than my truck. And it's a sexy car so I'm a happy girl. I do want an electric car as a daily driver within the next few years so I don't run the miles up on my camaro running errands.
When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; Isaiah 43:2
User avatar
shroom
 
Posts: 711
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:11 pm
Location: Georgia
Burning Since: 2010

PreviousNext

Return to Open Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 2 guests