recyclable shower?

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recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:48 pm

so, i am working an idea for a shower system that recycles the water, so you can more showers per litre of water.

make a platform out of plywood( shower stall goes on top), it's cut sheets of interlocking plywood, so no tools, very stable. thats the raised platform. anlge the top sheet so the water runs to one side. raise a lip on the other 3 sides. cover with your choice of water proof material, paint w/e . the water souce is 2 100+ liter ruber maid containers. one for the grey water, one for clean. on the grey one, attach a small pump and catridge filter system, like you'd find on a comemrical spa(or cheap ass pool). to sanitize the water you need to oxidize it, with some kind of shock or ozone, (brand name stuff like shock and swim etc) , that 'burns' off all the organics, combined with the filter system, you get the equivelant of pool water, minus the chlorine. perfectly ok to shower with, do not drink. (well you could likely drink it too) once the water in the grey tank is clear, pump to the other tank. on that side, again small pump through my already owned propane powered hot water shower system. for the stall itself, 1 inch or maybe 1.5" pipe as the frame. couple 10x10 tarps with extra gromets and some bungy cord. bam. recyclable shower. only thing i am unsure of is how many showers you can get per 100l of water before its too gross to use again. i'd bring a lot of non chlorine shock, or if i can get buy in from other people, invest in an ozonator, and extra catridges for the filter. oddly the dirtier the filter gets the better it works, right up till its too dirty.

water runs out into the grey tank.
so yeah. thats the plan. cheap filter+pump combo is about 100$. rest of the materiels are less than 100, since i already own the heater set up. chemicals to treat the water, might run 100$. i am not sure of the cost of an ozonator. but once this is built, it ought to be good for years of use.

should be no dirtier than pool water...

thoughts?

i am going try and get some serious testing done pre burn.. if this works i'd like to be able to gift some showers :)
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wet wipes.

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:02 pm

its just a week, dude.

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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:11 pm

my gf has massive ocd about cleanliness. the burn is gonna a big step for her, so trying to cushion it as much as possible. me? i could get by with wipes and what not.

i don't just mean she likes to be 'clean' , genuine ocd.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Sham » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:13 pm

The very first thing is that in the U.S., you'll have to use gallons, not litres. The shower idea water system sounds great. A few years, I just used a big salad bowl an a few gallons of water. You can get very clean and refreshed with that and a wash cloth.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:20 pm

in gallons... divide by 3.6 ish and 28 gallons?
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby jkisha » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:08 pm

We have an instant hot water shower too, but with an evaporation pond. I've often thought about recycling the water, but somehow never got around to finishing the design. I'll be curious to see what you come up with.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:52 pm

I think a lot is going to depend on how much organic material the ozone generator can burn off, combined with the how many filters i have lol . be an experiment for sure.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby some seeing eye » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:29 am

You might do some research on the size of playa dust, which your filters are trying to remove from the water. You might also consider how much water is just going to spend its time in the filter, unusable. The Earth Guardians usually are up on these type proposals, what has actually worked in the past.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:38 am

its a cartridge filter, so they don't really hold much water. less than a gallon i think?
i will peek around for previous ideas so i don't re-invent the wheel.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby lemur » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:14 am

some seeing eye wrote:You might do some research on the size of playa dust, .



as far as i can tell from this source: http://www.foresight.org/Conferences/MN ... tt1/#Sec61

playa dust is likely somewhere between 4µm "clay" and 30µm "silt" (micrometers) in size.

In plain English, it means one-millionth of a metre (or one-thousandth of a millimetre, or 0.001 mm).

(edit: a micron and a micrometer are the same thing: In practice, "micron" is a widely used term in preference to "micrometre" in many English-speaking countries, and in American English the use of the term helps differentiate the unit from the micrometer, a measuring device)

Common microorganisms and the filter size needed:

Protozoa: Giardia, Cryptosporidium 5 microns or larger Water filter: 1.0–4.0 microns
Bacteria: Cholera, E. coli, Salmonella 0.2–0.5 microns Microfilter: 0.2–1.0 microns
Viruses: Hepatitis A, rotavirus, Norwalk virus 0.004 microns Water purifier: to 0.004 microns


http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/manual/water.shtml
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby knowmad » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:15 am

didn't read through all of this but there are some folks talking about that sort of thing here

good luck!
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby lemur » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:18 am

and dont forget this! regarding ozone..

This study did find that treating oocysts with 1 ppm (1 mg/liter) of ozone for five minutes inactivated over 90% of the oocysts, but drinking water standards dictate that a maximum of only 0.4 mg of ozone per liter of water is allowed (Juranek, 1995). Thus, although ozone may be a potential disinfectant for inactivating C. parvum oocysts, one should not assume that these traditional chemical disinfectants (even if they inactivate coliform bacteria and Giardia) effectively eliminate the risk of cryptosporidial infection.

http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/bio38/h ... crypto.htm
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby lemur » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:21 am

and i may be crazy and the only one who thinks this... but surely bathing water should be potable water.

so make sure yer filterin out and killing all the baddies without poisoning yerself with chemicals or getting some nasty thing that you picked up off the porta potties in ya..

...bathing in non-potable water never seemed to stop all the people who chase after the dust-abatement water trucks at burning man...


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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby jkisha » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:04 am

lemur wrote:and i may be crazy and the only one who thinks this... but surely bathing water should be potable water.

so make sure yer filterin out and killing all the baddies without poisoning yerself with chemicals or getting some nasty thing that you picked up off the porta potties in ya..

...bathing in non-potable water never seemed to stop all the people who chase after the dust-abatement water trucks at burning man...



No, but if memory serves, it sends many to the first aid tent too.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Savannah » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:17 pm

Drucifer, I understand the OCD thing really well. I'm very fond of being clean out there, and I'll tell you what worked really well for me in a two person camp (we did not recycle our water, mind you):

* 5 gallon shower bag. Do not fill to total capacity or leave it hanging up and full between showers; the weight erodes the seams.
* PVC pipe shower cage (more than 6 feet high). We did not stake this (which is a must if left standing); we pulled it apart into two pieces when not in use.
* ordinary shower curtains (3) and sufficient curtain rings (rings need to be able to fit the PVC, but zip ties can also be used instead)
* wooden pallet to stand on (fit inside the shower cage, which was built purposefully large enough to fit around it)
* the 10 x 10 foot evaporation pond method listed here: http://www.burningman.com/environment/r ... water.html

The shower structure surrounded the pallet, which was placed directly on top of the 10 x 10 foot evap pond plastic. Each shower (about 2 gallons, not actually 5) evaporated in 12-24 hours; sweeping the water around on the plastic with a broom helps. Towards the end of the event, be ready to stop showering a day in advance or to collect any leftover water in a barrel and tote it out, or bleach it and sprinkle the remainder with a watering can on the road for a camp of 5 or fewer. (See link). Baby wipes (refill size) make a great bath supplement.

Some swear by garden sprayer baths; that's another very efficient option. So is bathing in a concrete mixing tub or kiddie pool, and pouring it into the evap pond. Please note that trying to evaporate water directly from a kiddie pool or similar--using only the sun--does not work. I've tried. :lol:
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:24 pm

cartridge filters will remove things down to 5 microns is size. i could go with a diatomaceous earth filter, they remove things down to 1 micron, but cost about 500 dollars and take considerable more water, almost as much as the actual volume i'd be filtering.

the ozone generator i am looking at makes 30mg per hour, and i have seen another one that makes 300mg per hour. since the total volume of water i am dealing with is 100 l, either of those should work, if i run the filter/ozonator for at least an hour once the water reservoir is full. I can also use some non chlorine shock or, even chlorine shock to be sure of safety. i'll also be using an injector system not a bubble system, which will increase the concentration at the injection point.

most hot tubs use the 30mg/hr ozone generator, with a much greater volume of water, and higher levels of contamination. (more people, hotter water, longer soak time etc..)

ozone is _really_ good at killing pathogens, and it has a half life of 22 minutes.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:27 pm

Savannah wrote:Drucifer, I understand the OCD thing really well. I'm very fond of being clean out there, and I'll tell you what worked really well for me in a two person camp (we did not recycle our water, mind you):

* 5 gallon shower bag. Do not fill to total capacity or leave it hanging up and full between showers; the weight erodes the seams.
* PVC pipe shower cage (more than 6 feet high). We did not stake this (which is a must if left standing); we pulled it apart into two pieces when not in use.
* ordinary shower curtains (3) and sufficient curtain rings (rings need to be able to fit the PVC, but zip ties can also be used instead)
* wooden pallet to stand on (fit inside the shower cage, which was built purposefully large enough to fit around it)
* the 10 x 10 foot evaporation pond method listed here: http://www.burningman.com/environment/r ... water.html

The shower structure surrounded the pallet, which was placed directly on top of the 10 x 10 foot evap pond plastic. Each shower (about 2 gallons, not actually 5) evaporated in 12-24 hours; sweeping the water around on the plastic with a broom helps. Towards the end of the event, be ready to stop showering a day in advance or to collect any leftover water in a barrel and tote it out, or bleach it and sprinkle the remainder with a watering can on the road for a camp of 5 or fewer. (See link). Baby wipes (refill size) make a great bath supplement.

Some swear by garden sprayer baths; that's another very efficient option. So is bathing in a concrete mixing tub or kiddie pool, and pouring it into the evap pond. Please note that trying to evaporate water directly from a kiddie pool or similar--using only the sun--does not work. I've tried. :lol:



those are also good options. very good actually.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Herring » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:46 pm

Savannah wrote:Please note that trying to evaporate water directly from a kiddie pool or similar--using only the sun--does not work. I've tried. :lol:


Damn, this was totally my plan!

What if I put a black tarp in the baby pool? Or paint it black? Is it really just the area just isn't wide enough and it's too deep to evaporate? How do you keep the baby pool from blowing away when not in use?
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby knowmad » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:52 pm

Drucifer303 wrote:cartridge filters will remove things down to 5 microns is size. i could go with a diatomaceous earth filter, they remove things down to 1 micron, but cost about 500 dollars and take considerable more water, almost as much as the actual volume i'd be filtering.

the ozone generator i am looking at makes 30mg per hour, and i have seen another one that makes 300mg per hour. since the total volume of water i am dealing with is 100 l, either of those should work, if i run the filter/ozonator for at least an hour once the water reservoir is full. I can also use some non chlorine shock or, even chlorine shock to be sure of safety. i'll also be using an injector system not a bubble system, which will increase the concentration at the injection point.

most hot tubs use the 30mg/hr ozone generator, with a much greater volume of water, and higher levels of contamination. (more people, hotter water, longer soak time etc..)

ozone is _really_ good at killing pathogens, and it has a half life of 22 minutes.

Yeah They really are the best. The Bio-industry uses them for various bulk water sanitization applications, I was only know the larger machines and those are quite spendy. what kind of power consumption does that unit require?
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Elliot » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:00 pm

Herring wrote:What if I put a black tarp in the baby pool? Or paint it black?

Everyone talk about black evap-ponds, but the reality is that playa dust will cover the surface within a short time, and turn the black into light tan.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Savannah » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:10 pm

Herring wrote:
Savannah wrote:Please note that trying to evaporate water directly from a kiddie pool or similar--using only the sun--does not work. I've tried. :lol:


Damn, this was totally my plan!

What if I put a black tarp in the baby pool? Or paint it black? Is it really just the area just isn't wide enough and it's too deep to evaporate? How do you keep the baby pool from blowing away when not in use?


The dark color of the plastic helps a little, but is not sufficient (I know this because my concrete mixing tub is black and does not evaporate fully either unless it's just an inch in there). The considerably larger size and shallowness is the most important part of a basic evap pond's effectiveness.

Baby pools and tubs are good catching devices, but are abysmal for evaporating water. It can sit there for days, which is disgusting when it's shower water. If one has no ability to make a basic evap pond, funneling the grey water back into containers and taking it out of the event at the end of the week and disposing of it responsibly would be smart.

If you are going to use a baby pool just to catch water, there are many ways to keep it from blowing away. Weighting it down with something, putting it (empty) face down under something weighty, keeping it inside a (staked) shower structure, provided the apertures are narrow . . . lots of things you could do. But do them, because it would suck to come back to camp after a dust storm to find your lightweight stuff gone. :)
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Elliot » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:47 pm

...funneling the grey water back into containers and taking it out of the event...

Before anyone even gets a chance to say "But it smells so awful!", let me suggest the solution: I add a dash of RV toilet chemical. I suppose common laundry bleach would work, but the RV toilet chemicals are made to neutralize "everything" and work great for shower water. You may not need to go to an RV store for it -- I've seen it at Wallyworld.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:22 pm

knowmad wrote:
Drucifer303 wrote:
ozone is _really_ good at killing pathogens, and it has a half life of 22 minutes.

Yeah They really are the best. The Bio-industry uses them for various bulk water sanitization applications, I was only know the larger machines and those are quite spendy. what kind of power consumption does that unit require?


Spec sheet for one says 25 watts, another 10 watts. so not much.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Bob » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:52 pm

No. Just... no.

Do sponge baths, and let your gf run behind the water truck.
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:31 pm

Bob wrote:No. Just... no.

Do sponge baths, and let your gf run behind the water truck.



thank you for your input, but non potable water, yeah, that totally won't set off her ocd at all..
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby C187 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:25 am

Drucifer303 wrote:
Bob wrote:No. Just... no.

Do sponge baths, and let your gf run behind the water truck.



thank you for your input, but non potable water, yeah, that totally won't set off her ocd at all..


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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby moonrise » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:36 am

Blech, keep it simple I say. I haul the grey water off in 5 gallon jugs (add a dash of bleach, or not).

You'd be amazed at how clean you can get with a solar shower bag and or gallon sized jugs of water set on your vehicles hood to warm in the sun.
If using the jugs, a 2 to 4 gallon shower is good for me....less if using a garden sprayer or solar bag.

Be sure to get the shower done before the sun drps below the mountains, it drops fast and the temp goes down quickly. Or shower during the warm daytime.

For privacy, big box stores sell $35 shower tents. Just pour the warmed water over yourselves straight from the jug or solar shower bag and or use a garden sprayer (cutting the garden sprayer hose shorter helps if you can jamb it back onto the sprayer, it helps maneuvering for those hard to reach spots).

Good luck and maybe she'll get (tougher) over the silly OCD bs, toughen her up a bit, sheesh...it's just camping. Have fun! ;)
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Drucifer303 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:07 pm

moonrise wrote:Blech, keep it simple I say. I haul the grey water off in 5 gallon jugs (add a dash of bleach, or not).

You'd be amazed at how clean you can get with a solar shower bag and or gallon sized jugs of water set on your vehicles hood to warm in the sun.
If using the jugs, a 2 to 4 gallon shower is good for me....less if using a garden sprayer or solar bag.

Be sure to get the shower done before the sun drps below the mountains, it drops fast and the temp goes down quickly. Or shower during the warm daytime.

For privacy, big box stores sell $35 shower tents. Just pour the warmed water over yourselves straight from the jug or solar shower bag and or use a garden sprayer (cutting the garden sprayer hose shorter helps if you can jamb it back onto the sprayer, it helps maneuvering for those hard to reach spots).

Good luck and maybe she'll get (tougher) over the silly OCD bs, toughen her up a bit, sheesh...it's just camping. Have fun! ;)


well thats part of why were are coming. to expose her to new and dirty things :)
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby Savannah » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:00 pm

moonrise wrote:Be sure to get the shower done before the sun drps below the mountains, it drops fast and the temp goes down quickly. Or shower during the warm daytime.


Yeah . . . just before sunset (or if it's still warm, just after) is my favorite time for a shower. I'm less likely to sweat immediately afterwards, no sunscreen to put back on, and the wind (usually) dies with the sun, so I don't get dirty as fast. It's a good strategy for your girl, Drucifer! :)
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Re: recyclable shower?

Postby oneeyeddick » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:08 pm

Playa dust will require a 2 micron filter(that's it's size), using a spin down filter before the carbon filter is a really good idea unless you wanna change that thing after every use.
you can find a 2 micron filter for use with a type of filter brand "big blue"

A little bleach, and maybe a reverse osmosis system, and your girlfriend will be set like cheese.

Someone did a really large version of this about 8 years ago, and they were able to turn piss into drinkable water...there is a thread about it somewhere in the archives, but I can't remember which year to look for.
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