Removing Radical Inclusion

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Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby oneeyeddick » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:32 pm

It just simply can't exist anymore when the demand for tickets exceeds the supply.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby lemur » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:38 pm

yes it can!!
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Eric » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:52 pm

If it's understood as "anyone is welcome" instead of "everyone is guaranteed to be able to attend" it can still exist fine.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby oneeyeddick » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:02 pm

They are not welcome if they don't have a ticket.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby The CO » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:11 pm

Semantics, Dick.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Eric » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:12 pm

I knew it would twist that way, I just couldn't think of a short way of saying "radical inclusion means that anyone is welcome, there is no criteria to define being accepted in BRC, and members who cannot actually attend (due to the event being more popular than the permit will accommodate) are still fully accepted into the Burner community"

Not pithy...
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby oneeyeddick » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:21 pm

And it certainly gives those uber-whiners something to grasp to as they tell everyone they were "DENIED!" tickets.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby gibson_ » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:30 pm

They're welcome so long as they're not virgins, am i right?

\o/
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Eric » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:32 pm

gibson_ wrote:They're welcome so long as they're not virgins, am i right?

\o/
/ \


what part of "anyone" excludes virgins?
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby remi » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:40 pm

Eric wrote:
gibson_ wrote:They're welcome so long as they're not virgins, am i right?

\o/
/ \


what part of "anyone" excludes virgins?


Phew.. because I really want to attend burning man.. but I really don't want to go against my religion and have my virginity slayed before I am married just to attend.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:42 pm

You did say "radical" didn't you?
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Lord Of Ruin » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:36 pm

One of the things I've found most interesting about the ticket fiasco is how quickly the "die hard burners" just chuck the inconvenient portions of the 10 principles out the window when it suits them.

Radical inclusion my ass. Most of the proposed "solutions" to the fiasco by long time burners include some method of awarding tix to theme camps, long time burners, artists, etc.

Everyone seems to have the attitude that they earned the right to be there, and that poor noobs certainly won't make for a good Burning Man all by their lonesome. If part of the grand experiment is to see just how temporary the temporary community will be, I say let it all play out. I'd love to see what an event would look like with ~40% completely new burners.

Most of me thinks it'd be like watching a train wreck in slow motion, but I'm up for the show.

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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby bluesbob » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:41 pm

Next time we have ticket sales it should be done like "The Price Is Right".
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby graidawg » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:46 pm

Lord Of Ruin wrote:One of the things I've found most interesting about the ticket fiasco is how quickly the "die hard burners" just chuck the inconvenient portions of the 10 principles out the window when it suits them.

Radical inclusion my ass. Most of the proposed "solutions" to the fiasco by long time burners include some method of awarding tix to theme camps, long time burners, artists, etc.

Everyone seems to have the attitude that they earned the right to be there, and that poor noobs certainly won't make for a good Burning Man all by their lonesome. If part of the grand experiment is to see just how temporary the temporary community will be, I say let it all play out. I'd love to see what an event would look like with ~40% completely new burners.

Most of me thinks it'd be like watching a train wreck in slow motion, but I'm up for the show.

LoR



i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that 50% of attendees each year have never been before.

I would agree that the principles do get thrrown out at the first chance by just about everyone, people pick and choose the principles they want to follow, but then thats the same with most anything isnt it?
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby lemur » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:02 pm

Lord Of Ruin wrote:One of the things I've found most interesting about the ticket fiasco is how quickly the "die hard burners" just chuck the inconvenient portions of the 10 principles out the window when it suits them.

LoR


strange that it took till 2012 until they were made to find out what radical-inclusion really means... only to summarily reject it..(edit: only to reject it when they find out it might mean they can't get what they wanted)
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Isotopia » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:11 pm

If it's understood as "anyone is welcome" instead of "everyone is guaranteed to be able to attend" it can still exist fine.


A salient and important point.

Look, even some of the hippies have it figured out (correctly) what all this snafu actually represents.

Have a look [youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUMbzVNt ... ture=share[/youtube]
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:19 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:And it certainly gives those uber-whiners something to grasp to as they tell everyone they were "DENIED!" tickets.

They weren't denied tickets, they were "rejected".

(I know, it's hard to keep track of whatever way they are spinning their senses of entitlement...)
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:20 pm

Lord Of Ruin wrote:One of the things I've found most interesting about the ticket fiasco is how quickly the "die hard burners" just chuck the inconvenient portions of the 10 principles out the window when it suits them.

I hope I haven't done that...
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby oneeyeddick » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:09 am

Lord Of Ruin wrote:One of the things I've found most interesting about the ticket fiasco is how quickly the "die hard burners" just chuck the inconvenient portions of the 10 principles out the window when it suits them.

Radical inclusion my ass. Most of the proposed "solutions" to the fiasco by long time burners include some method of awarding tix to theme camps, long time burners, artists, etc.

Everyone seems to have the attitude that they earned the right to be there, and that poor noobs certainly won't make for a good Burning Man all by their lonesome. If part of the grand experiment is to see just how temporary the temporary community will be, I say let it all play out. I'd love to see what an event would look like with ~40% completely new burners.

Most of me thinks it'd be like watching a train wreck in slow motion, but I'm up for the show.

LoR



I am not throwing anything out the window, but these 10 principals haven't ALWAYS been in place here, ya' know?

There are a couple others I don't fully support either, but removing the most bane of them, IE "radical inclusion", wouldn't be that hard to do IMO, without noticing any difference in the outcome except for one less crutch for wannabe "veteran" burners to whine about as they are "Denied" tickets and claim the whole thing was handled in such a manner that the event will surely suffer because of their absence, as well as all of their friend's absence, as well as the event "selling out" and not being "like the good old days"

I for one am fine with whatever, I will still be doing the same thing I always do, and I am sure there will be aplenty of art to burn, and more virgins is also a plus IMO.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby BBadger » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:58 am

Nothing needs to be changed. The real problem is that we have--unfortunately--a lot of burner heretics.

The lottery shall cleanse the playa of they who would corrupt and pervert the fundamental principles of Burning Man for their own ends.

The heathen masses cannot be blamed for their ignorance and non-belief. However, it is entirely another thing to invoke the principles in purposely corrupted form for your own ends. Such heretics must be cast out!

--------------

Okay, but realistically, I see it more like a "love thy neighbor as thyself" kind of thing: many people are simply not principled enough to adhere to their supposed beliefs when things get rough. Sometimes "radical inclusion" means including others at the expense of oneself. That may just be too radical for some people.

On my own end, the only way I can reconcile the 10 principles is that they apply only while at the event. In particular, the "decommodification" principle obviously can't be applied outside the event as attending BM fundamentally relies on commodification. You also can't include everyone, because that's just not how it works outside a controlled reality.

If others feel the same way, they ought to just state that. Don't purport to follow the principles outside the gates while simultaneously advocating the opposite. Such hypocrisy should be fundamentally condemned.

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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Igneouss » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:43 am

Eric wrote:If it's understood as "anyone is welcome" instead of "everyone is guaranteed to be able to attend" it can still exist fine.


Your point is excellent.
But what happens when you factor in all the groups that get tickets regardless? Conclave? All the various skill sets like DPW and Rangers and center camp? And now add the nebulous 'large theme camps' that the BMorg is now considering?? Some of these people are very important to the community. Some maybe less so. But truth is that a large number of people are excused from the lottery.

So now we have a large group of people that are 'more equal than others'...

Bit of a paradox
Basic b/e analysis:
2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Raymaker » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:48 am

10 principles, 10 commandments, it's still control. Radical Inclusion = Radical exclusion, freedom of rejection, not free. But it's all good, Elvis told me.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby 5280MeV » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:46 am

I didn't think of the idea of radical inclusion meant that everyone can go to burning man. To me that is completely absurd. To go to burning man, one has to be able to take a full week off from work and potentially away from their families, have the gear and knowledge to survive in the desert for a week, and have the money to travel what could be a very long distance to get there. This is a very select group of people.

I thought of it as there not being a sense of an in-crowd or set of cool people. Anyone who comes and expresses their own individuality, makes something, performs something, or volunteers, in a way small or large, skilled or unskilled, is perfectly well part of the group. This is incredibly powerful and incredibly freeing.

I don't think that this generally works very well in day-to-day life - especially when taken to the extreme. But BRC, by virtue of being in such a remote and vicious environment, generally auto-selects a group of pretty reliant and capable people. Once there, this group can safely shed the social survival mechanisms that demand one to differentiate an in-crowd. Turning this function off for a week is the mind opening special sauce that allows one to go back to the 'default world' and rethink their social walls and boundaries.

There seems to be a touch of pragmatism in the system already. While the city is largely decommodified, one can purchase ice or coffee. Certain art projects and fire performances are given free and guaranteed access and even money. So on one hand I don't see the absolute harm in adding some tickets or grants for motorized, performance, culinary, and service art in order to foster the development of large scale projects that would have a difficult or impossible time functioning with randomized ticket distribution. However, I would expect that the majority of theme camps would not qualify, the process would be difficult, and the process would likely try to discourage repeating the same group of people or project year after year.

As long as the vast majority (80%+) of tickets are left in the hands of anyone who legitimately wants to go, selected randomly rather than by merit, there ought to be some semblance of radical inclusion, in the sense I describe above, in many places in the city. As long as I can find places in BRC that are like this, I will keep coming back - or trying to.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Speedbump » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:17 am

If you want to limit the number of people that are coming to the event simply eliminate RV's altogether. A lot of people will then simply chose to stay home.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby lemur » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:22 am

Speedbump wrote:If you want to limit the number of people that are coming to the event simply eliminate RV's altogether. A lot of people will then simply chose to stay home.


bullshit RV hate is Bullshit
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Igneouss » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:23 am

Eliminate the large sound camps.

LOL
Basic b/e analysis:
2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby ygmir » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:24 am

Speedbump wrote:If you want to limit the number of people that are coming to the event simply eliminate RV's altogether. A lot of people will then simply chose to stay home.


see, why not eliminate tents?

Require every structure there to have solid sides? it'd still include hexayurts (for folks who are willing to build things).........
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby remi » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:24 am

Eliminate everyone that doesn't own a doberman.
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby ygmir » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:25 am

remi wrote:Eliminate everyone that doesn't own a doberman.


well, who "owns" a Doberman?...............they only do what you say, for food. once you become food to them.................
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Re: Removing Radical Inclusion

Postby Igneouss » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:29 am

Eliminate:
All white men with dreds and women with pierced noses...
Basic b/e analysis:
2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
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