Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Want to talk about tickets? You've come to the right place

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby rubymermaid » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:05 pm

I believe that tickets in the future may need to have an A and B designation.

A tickets allow you to arrive on Saturday and leave on Monday.

B tickets allow you to arrive on Sunday and leave on Tuesday.

Have 1/2 of each. Allow trades so people can organize their cars. Or allow request of a A or B ticket to start.

Both tickets get the same amount of time. I think this would help with arrival and Exodus times.
rubymermaid
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 2:39 pm

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby ygmir » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:09 pm

rubymermaid wrote:I believe that tickets in the future may need to have an A and B designation.

A tickets allow you to arrive on Saturday and leave on Monday.

B tickets allow you to arrive on Sunday and leave on Tuesday.

Have 1/2 of each. Allow trades so people can organize their cars. Or allow request of a A or B ticket to start.

Both tickets get the same amount of time. I think this would help with arrival and Exodus times.


who's gonna stroll the neighborhoods, checking who has which ticket?
"oops, I forgot to leave on Monday"

gendarme: "then, you can't leave"

edit to cue Eagles music.
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25998
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby freeatlast » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:39 am

The only solution is:
Multiple Burning Man type events:
gift economy, no spectators.
Burning man will sell out every year, and scalpers will sell overpriced tickets every year,
until there are enough events so that everyone can find a ticket. trying to find solutions to this by thinking about fair ticketing procedures is not ever going to work, unfortunately. the demand has exceeded capacity.
(doesn't coachella sell out 100,000 tickets in a few hours?)
burning man is essentially the same as it was when it had 16,000 people, my first year.
we need to have events that are available for 10,000 or more people in:
perhaps:
australia brazil israel
florida, arizona, louisiana, minnesota etc, etc.
at several different times of the year.
when there are more events, everyone who wants a ticket can get one. until then, thinking about how to get rid of scalpers is missing the point, except to show that it won't work until we have more events.
we need to become like Carnival in South America:
millions of people involved, most people just doing it for fun, access to everyone, and partying for three months before the actual carnival as a prelude.
burning man organization could have three or six or twelve events; others could use the values of burning man and their advice to start festivals called Moist Woman or Freedom Gathering or Creative Anarchy or whatever; the essence is the gift economy and no spectators: that's what makes burning man different from any other festival in the world.
perhaps one of the local afterburn festivals could step up and try to have an alternative burning man festival this summer that would be nearby, like arizona or utah, and could fit 10000 people and theme camps; there certainly is a demand!
freeatlast
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:57 am

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:12 pm

Another suggestion.. require arrival by Tues. Close the gates on Tuesday. That will fix the weekender wagon.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby Fiver » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:58 pm

Winter Burning Man somewhere warm... Florida, Arizona, NM, Texas, Southern CA Wherever.... And then the normal summer Burning man at BRC. Two events, less demand.
Fiver
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:53 am
Burning Since: 2011

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby blazefirestormer » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:01 pm

No one asked me, however,

Anonymity vs. Transferable tickets
But an Idea I had was, to take advantage of the openness by which tickets are gifted to people, but also to maintain anonymity, tickets should be sold as transferable tickets (being able to give one to another) ,and non transferable tickets (named tickets). It's a compromise! By selecting a certain amount of tickets specifically to be transferable, you then know how many tickets are going to either scalpers, or those who want to remain private. Those with an issue on privacy, and anonymity, can purchase their tickets at a higher price, like 150$ more than the highest tier named tickets, if you want to trade your ticket in for an anonymous ticket you pay the premium, you could also step up the pricing on named tickets, so that if there is a change last minute, a person might be so inclined to "GIFT" it to STEP. There is no bullet proof solution for the scalpers that also makes the tickets anonymous.

Credit card number scrubbing
Those who attempted to buy tickets multiple times, with multiple email addresses, and credit card's, and addresses, can be scrubbed off an excel document. So all those tickets headed to one address from multiple cards, and multiple emails, can be vetted. Suspicion of scalping should be enough Probable cause to be ejected from the lottery. Suspected scalpers should be noticed an email hours before, and the reason for so many entries, the only way persons could get back into the lottery is through appeal process, like a petition.

First come first serve for last drawing!
Those who did not receive tickets in the first drawing, at the highest rate, should be automatically entered into the second drawing, if they didn't win the first drawing, and the second drawing, to keep it still a lottery if that's what were talking here, they should be given tickets the last drawing or given them at such high odds of winning, that scalpers won't be able to feast on their tears!

STEP hopefully will vet actual people, with ID, I know..... it runs contrary to anonymity but that's also what makes this process so easy to exploit. If you can't hold the person or organization accountable because they aren't showing to the event, then they can affect the event without having to attend.

The last idea I had was have a random number of transferable tickets, and named tickets, then scalpers would be screwed! Because they would not be able to resell half of their tickets! people that get to transfer to a unnamed ticket, would only be able to do it once, with 2 tickets, and at the premium price. You could also have a rule any amount of tickets above 2 only half the tickets can be turned into transferable tickets.

Registered Theme camps should have some sort of priority access for their people, and the ticket should reference the theme camp.

Please feel free to tear apart my reasoning, with some logic, just trying to find positive ways of making things better!
blazefirestormer
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:02 pm

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:12 pm

Fiver wrote:Winter Burning Man somewhere warm... Florida, Arizona, NM, Texas, Southern CA Wherever.... And then the normal summer Burning man at BRC. Two events, less demand.

o/'\o
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
User avatar
Ugly Dougly
 
Posts: 16342
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Burning Since: 1996

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby CornMan » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:10 pm

Don't check each and every ticket and identification. Get a slot machine for each lane. Set up the odds to where you need them. Have the driver of each car pull the handle. If it comes up 3 cherries (or whatever fruit) in a row, they get their tickets and IDs checked. If it comes up 3 bars in a row, they get their car searched for stowaways and contraband. If it comes up some other predetermined combination, they can get some sort of swag. It will be random - and fun!
The camp with a difference
Never mind the weather
When you camp with Plug & Ply
Your holiday's forever
User avatar
CornMan
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:40 pm

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:57 am

And would slow down the lines...
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37462
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby CornMan » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:09 am

theCryptofishist wrote:And would slow down the lines...


They search every vehicle now how it is. It's hard to imagine anything slower than that.
The camp with a difference
Never mind the weather
When you camp with Plug & Ply
Your holiday's forever
User avatar
CornMan
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:40 pm

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby BBadger » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:45 am

How long have you really been in line to enter BM? The longest for us was about 3hrs, on opening day. It took longer than that for us to leave on exodus--which represents the maximally efficient movement of the line. In that light, what is really being gained here with reduced, randomized searches, etc.? It's like fighting over the remains and feces of time. There is bigger game to catch.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.
User avatar
BBadger
 
Posts: 3973
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:37 am
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA
Burning Since: I'm not sure

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:46 am

When on opening day, and what year?
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37462
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby BBadger » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:57 am

theCryptofishist wrote:When on opening day, and what year?


Last year. I think about 10PM (so technically the hours before the event was technically open). Cars stretching as far as the eye could see.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.
User avatar
BBadger
 
Posts: 3973
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:37 am
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA
Burning Since: I'm not sure

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby vargaso » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:28 am

I waited 12 hours in 2009 when we got to the gate literally 5 minutes early and were shunted into the dreaded Lot D and were left to stew until morning while we watched cars go by. That was my first and last time arriving at opening. It turned into a party anyway, so big deal. But yeah, other than that the longest wait for my on entry was about 2 hours. I usually get there on Tues afternoon and that wait is minimal. It's exodus that's the issue
User avatar
vargaso
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Location: Lincoln, CA
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby burner von braun » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:01 pm

random notes:

Arriving in 2010, I hit bumper to bumper standing traffic at approx. 1:15 am Monday. Still several miles from the playa turnoff. Backed up well beyond Gerlach, and total traffic standstills at times. I think I spent as much time creeping along on 447 pavement as I did on playa. I estimate it was at least 3.5 to 4 hours wait, once I hit stalled traffic, to finally make it through gate


In order to thin the exodus jam, perhaps extend the burn one more day (soft close), and have one last burn Monday night to entice those who don't have tight schedules to stay until Tuesday. Perhaps some DPW/infrastructure dismantling could begin Monday (example: outer ring of porta-johns could begin clossure, LEO could begin reassignment) to save them some time.
Another early attempt at success
User avatar
burner von braun
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:37 pm
Burning Since: 2010

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:31 pm

BBadger wrote:How long have you really been in line to enter BM? The longest for us was about 3hrs, on opening day. It took longer than that for us to leave on exodus--which represents the maximally efficient movement of the line. In that light, what is really being gained here with reduced, randomized searches, etc.? It's like fighting over the remains and feces of time. There is bigger game to catch.


The longest I have ever waited in line to get in was the one year they had names on a list for weekend early arrival. The glitch at gate resulted in a 12 hour delay getting in to setup camp. They havent had a list with names checked against ids since that fiasco. The year was greenman, 07 or 08, same year as the early burn. Aside from that it seems that early arrival is a max of an hour and the few times I did the midnight madness gate open to the public anywhere from 2 to 4 hours.
BlackRockCityPimp
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:48 am
Location: Tent

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:26 pm

Then why were people talking about 8 hours for the last burn? Or did I confuse it with Exodus? Makes a certain amount of sense, because I don't remember any "I had to wait five hours to get in and eight to get out, the llc are fuck-ups" posts, and there would have been, because people like to complain.

Okay, I look silly...
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37462
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby WTAWTAW » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:23 am

For your consideration (and my apologies to anyone who may have previously suggested this; it is not my intent to plagiarize):
What if the same theme, same man, same temple, same essential players were to remain identical for two years in a row, but with a change of the majority of theme camps and art projects. The theme for the two years could be announced one year in advance of the first of the two years. During the primary ticket sales, held shortly after the theme is announced, individuals and theme camps would be requested to choose between one of the two years. The main advantage I see of choosing the first year (let's call it the ODD year) is that those participants get to be in on the inception and creative process of bringing something new to BRC. The main advantage I see of choosing the EVEN year is that it gives the participants two full years to organize, plan, and fundraise for more expensive and elaborate art installations and theme camps. Requesting people to sign up for only one of the two years might increase the number of people and theme camps who/which could attend, and allow far more people the chance to actually participate and "gift" (and from what I'm reading, even most of the virgins want to participate and give, but now sure how given the uncertainty of even going).

Of course, this would only happen if individual participants and theme campers are willing to attend only every other year. A simple poll might answer the question of whether this idea is even something to consider:

If the same theme were kept for two years, would you:

A. Want to attend the first year
B. Want to attend the second year
C. Want to attend both years

If the vast majority of respondents answered "C" then obviously even considering this idea is a waste of time.

This is just the kernel of a thought; certainly not fully developed and not intended to be pushed...

WTAWTAW (Where There's A Will There's A Way)
WTAWTAW
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:17 am

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby HandJamMasterC » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:31 am

In order to thin the exodus jam, perhaps extend the burn one more day (soft close), and have one last burn Monday night to entice those who don't have tight schedules to stay until Tuesday. Perhaps some DPW/infrastructure dismantling could begin Monday (example: outer ring of porta-johns could begin clossure, LEO could begin reassignment) to save them some time.


Perhaps we could get the ticket cap raised if the BLM permit was modified so that pre-placed / registered theme camp operators could stay until Tuesday or Wed., which would lessen the traffic impact of people leaving on Sunday and Monday. There were I believe 20K people in early last year setting up theme camps. If just 10K could wait and leave later on Tuesday or Wed, should be able to justify 10K more tickets.
CAMP D.O.A.

Fun As A Scorched Earth Policy...........

https://sites.google.com/site/campdoa/
User avatar
HandJamMasterC
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:18 am
Location: Cameron Park CA
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Camp D.O.A.

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby 48_love » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:05 pm

I had been thinking about staged entrance and Exodus ideas. I hear some of the limitations, particularly for Exodus. But if it is 'voluntary' to select an Exodus time and only those designated to leave in a window will be guaranteed a spot in the Exodus line, the road conditions could be managed a little. Similarly for entrance, if there was 'voluntary' staged entrance times, participants could be encouraged (and dissuaded) to enter at agreed upon times. For entrance, the staging would have to happen well before the road to gate, in Gerlach proper or something.

Ok, not fully fleshed out and ready for holes to be punched in it!

The issues I'd want to solve for is road impact for higher population numbers.

The grandeur of the Nevada event is (maybe) always going to have its distinct appeal and sexiness!

How can we get more people in?

That doesn't address a question bouncing around my head for optimal population just on basis of best experience for City residents. I fear that might already have been reached and increasing population size is moot.
User avatar
48_love
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:58 pm
Burning Since: 2013

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby mdmf007 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:37 pm

48_love wrote:I had been thinking about staged entrance and Exodus ideas. I hear some of the limitations, particularly for Exodus. But if it is 'voluntary' to select an Exodus time and only those designated to leave in a window will be guaranteed a spot in the Exodus line, the road conditions could be managed a little.....


You can only control the entry of people - In the US you have the right to leave anytime you want. I pull up to a gate to leave and you tell me to wait until tomorrow - I am going to tell you to go eff yourself.

Its been mentioned before - 2 Burns a year, then 3 when tickets sell out to the burns again. Not many people can afford to go twice a year. July 4 weekend and again in August would be my suggestion on the BRC, or have them concurrent in separate locations.

MDMF
One of the Meanie Greenies (Figjam 2013)
User avatar
mdmf007
Moderator
 
Posts: 4773
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:32 pm
Location: my computer
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: ESD

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby lemur » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:59 pm

lets just have burning man 365 days a year.. hell, i think i might be at burning man right now!
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby bradtem » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:45 am

Nobody has suggested it because many people will not like it, but the permit from the BLM does not cap the city at 50,000 tickets. Rather it caps the city population at 50,000 on average, measured at noon. You could sell 75,000 tickets if you did 25K all-week tickets, and 25K Mon-Thu tickets (leave by 1pm) and 25K Thu-Mon tickets (arrive after noon Thu) as an example.

You would have to find a lot of people who were willing to leave Thursday and not see the man burn. And that's not enough time to really see the city or to make it worth building stuff. But it is enough time for the tourists and sparkle ponies to come, check out the art and the camps, dance at a few raves and go.
See giant panoramas of BRC: http://www.templetons.com/brad/burn
User avatar
bradtem
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:27 pm
Location: Silicon Valley
Burning Since: 1998

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby vargaso » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:57 am

bradtem wrote:Nobody has suggested it because many people will not like it, but the permit from the BLM does not cap the city at 50,000 tickets. Rather it caps the city population at 50,000 on average, measured at noon. You could sell 75,000 tickets if you did 25K all-week tickets, and 25K Mon-Thu tickets (leave by 1pm) and 25K Thu-Mon tickets (arrive after noon Thu) as an example.

You would have to find a lot of people who were willing to leave Thursday and not see the man burn. And that's not enough time to really see the city or to make it worth building stuff. But it is enough time for the tourists and sparkle ponies to come, check out the art and the camps, dance at a few raves and go.


How would you monitor that? I don't think it would be possible outside of having wear wristbands, and even then, it'd be awfully difficult and annoying, to boot.
User avatar
vargaso
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Location: Lincoln, CA
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby vargaso » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:02 am

wrong thread sorry
User avatar
vargaso
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Location: Lincoln, CA
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby lemur » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:11 am

bradtem wrote:Nobody has suggested it because many people will not like it, but the permit from the BLM does not cap the city at 50,000 tickets. Rather it caps the city population at 50,000 on average, measured at noon. You could sell 75,000 tickets if you did 25K all-week tickets, and 25K Mon-Thu tickets (leave by 1pm) and 25K Thu-Mon tickets (arrive after noon Thu) as an example.

You would have to find a lot of people who were willing to leave Thursday and not see the man burn. And that's not enough time to really see the city or to make it worth building stuff. But it is enough time for the tourists and sparkle ponies to come, check out the art and the camps, dance at a few raves and go.



that has been suggested, and promptly rejected..

how do you plan on rounding people up to remove those who are overstaying their ticket ?
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby AntiM » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:48 am

Shock collars?
These are not my fuckos.
User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
 
Posts: 16398
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:23 am
Location: Top O' the World, Ma!
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby lemur » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:54 am

good idea!!!!
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby tamarakay » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:59 am

About the multiple tickets to one address address thing. I have three attendees live in this house plus I have a couple of kids who live in a dorm. Tickets would be safer mailed here. Multiple tickets same address. We are not scalpels or hoarders, just a large family. The one ticket per person idea kills us too. That's a lot of throwaway cash cards and those things aren't free either.
When the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a hippie.

Mmmmmm I love the smell of Burning Man Token


http://www.dyewithdignity.com
User avatar
tamarakay
 
Posts: 2133
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:27 pm
Location: Texas
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity at BDC

Re: Positive Suggestions for Fixing What Is Obviously Broken

Postby bradtem » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:59 am

vargaso wrote:
bradtem wrote:Nobody has suggested it because many people will not like it, but the permit from the BLM does not cap the city at 50,000 tickets. Rather it caps the city population at 50,000 on average, measured at noon. You could sell 75,000 tickets if you did 25K all-week tickets, and 25K Mon-Thu tickets (leave by 1pm) and 25K Thu-Mon tickets (arrive after noon Thu) as an example.

You would have to find a lot of people who were willing to leave Thursday and not see the man burn. And that's not enough time to really see the city or to make it worth building stuff. But it is enough time for the tourists and sparkle ponies to come, check out the art and the camps, dance at a few raves and go.


How would you monitor that? I don't think it would be possible outside of having wear wristbands, and even then, it'd be awfully difficult and annoying, to boot.


It would indeed be difficult and unpopular. Oregon Country Faire does it with the "sweep" (and wristbands) but that's would be an immense challenge on the playa. It's possible that a guilt ethic would work in a smaller community but ours is too large now.

But I just list it because a lot of people were saying that there is a limit of tickets, and that is not correct, it is a limit on the average number of participants per day, of 400,000 person-days. You could have 70,000 on Fri-Sat-Sun and 38,000 on Mon-Tue-Wed-Thur,Mon and comply. Except for the fact that you would have to get those 70,000 out of the playa in two days and that's a big challenge.
See giant panoramas of BRC: http://www.templetons.com/brad/burn
User avatar
bradtem
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:27 pm
Location: Silicon Valley
Burning Since: 1998

PreviousNext

Return to 2012 Tickets Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests