Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby remi » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:13 pm

It sucks, but I have come to realize that the lotto will not work next year (for obvious reasons,) and I honestly think the only 2 systems that will work are the old system (just have to beef up the tech aspect,) or non-transferable tickets, which I know plenty of people (including most moderators) have many reasons why not to use this.. but I 100% think that the only way to keep people in check, is to only allow people to purchase tickets for themselves. "Oh.. what about gifting tickets." Tell you lazy/poor burner friend to get off their ass and get their own ticket... practice some radical self reliance. I don't understand why everyone would think it would turn into a clusterfuck at the gates.. instead of handing the person your ticket, hand them an I.D. and a ticket.. it will take an extra 5-10 seconds per person, and we won't have to deal what we see here today. I know it sucks, but think about the pro's and cons. An extra hour or two at the gate while getting to putting more tickets in more hands of burners.

That's just my two cents, and I know that a lot of people disagree with this because the line wait time (which doesn't really bother me at all,) or showing I.D. at the front (again, I don't see why that would be considered invasion of privacy, and searching a vehicle isn't,) or just the fact that they can't buy tickets for friends (if they can't get tickets for themselves.. do you really expect them to get some for friends?) In the end, those factors shouldn't be big enough to deter BM from putting names on tickets. Plus, I think it would be a cool souvenier to have a personalized ticket.

Sorry for bringing this up again (as it has been brought up many times,) but from what I see on this forum, I would rather piss off the small amount of people that don't like showing I.Ds, and give away free tickets, rather then piss off thousands upon thousands of burners.
Can you at least admit that nuclear explosions are awesome!?
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby Lifeisshort » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:34 pm

Short of sell tickets at the Burn... there is no simple answer
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby remi » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:55 pm

Lifeisshort wrote:Short of sell tickets at the Burn... there is no simple answer



Terrible idea. People need time to prep.. and I don't know about you, but if I traveled all the way to the states to go to a festival and they were sold out at the door.. I would be a little more dissappointed then not getting a ticket in the first place.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby forge » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:04 pm

remi wrote: non-transferable tickets, which I know plenty of people (including most moderators) have many reasons why not to use this.. but I 100% think that the only way to keep people in check, is to only allow people to purchase tickets for themselves. "


Can someone please spell out the problems of non-transferable tickets? Please?
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby remi » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:16 pm

forge wrote:
remi wrote: non-transferable tickets, which I know plenty of people (including most moderators) have many reasons why not to use this.. but I 100% think that the only way to keep people in check, is to only allow people to purchase tickets for themselves. "


Can someone please spell out the problems of non-transferable tickets? Please?


From what I've read, here are some problems:

- Longer wait times when entering event (this problem is false, because the names can be checked while the vehicles are searched. It should not take any extra time, or any extra equipment. It may take one extra volunteer. )

- Gifting is a big part of BM, you can NOT gift non-transferable tickets (I don't see this as a major problem.. when more then half the BM community can't get tickets, why should people be allowed to purchase more with the intention of gifting it to a burner that isn't radically self reliant.. i.e.. get there own ticket.)

- Some people don't want to show there i.d. They feel its a sort of invasion of privacy (but those same people are ok with have there vehicle search and personal belongings gone through? I would rather piss these weirdo's off instead of the entire BM community.)

So, really, unless I missed something, there is no REAL reason why they don't do non-transferable tickets.. just a bunch of crappy reasons.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby A Jester » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:59 pm

remi wrote:
forge wrote:
remi wrote: non-transferable tickets, which I know plenty of people (including most moderators) have many reasons why not to use this.. but I 100% think that the only way to keep people in check, is to only allow people to purchase tickets for themselves. "


Can someone please spell out the problems of non-transferable tickets? Please?


From what I've read, here are some problems:

- Longer wait times when entering event (this problem is false, because the names can be checked while the vehicles are searched. It should not take any extra time, or any extra equipment. It may take one extra volunteer. )


From what I understand, this one is the deal breaker. Wait times are projected to be long enough to back the traffic up to 447, which would cause a major safety issue, which could make the BLM lower the event cap.

I haven't heard from anyone who works Gayte that thinks this would be easy.

Also, you're talking about one extra volunteer per lane, right? So maybe 10 extra volunteers for each shift. 30 extra volunteers for maybe 2 days is 60 extra volunteers. I'm not saying you couldn't come up with 60 extra volunteers (or even that 60 would be enough, this is your estimate - not mine) but I am saying that there's a big difference between finding one extra shift filled and finding 60 extra shifts filled.

Other not really problems:
"I don't want to show my ID" - you're right, screw those people. If you're too paranoid to show a Gayte person your ID, how can I trust you not to think that the CIA is in hiding your files in my tent. Stop doing drugs and the government mind control rays will start leaving you alone.

Gifting - you can still put someone else's name on the ticket, right? So you can still gift.

Other maybe real problems:
"I forgot my ID, but here's my library card", etc. - what do you do with all the permutations of almost having ID?

"Just back up for a few miles, turn right, and head to Reno." - this plan will likely involve many more cars being turned away. How do you handle that extra traffic?

"Here's my ID, I'm from Botswana" - for $1,000 I'll sell you a ticket and a fake ID that matches the name on it. Gayte will have a hard enough time keeping up with the valid IDs from the US, let alone from everywhere in the world.

"What part of Utopia do you come from?" - the Lottery (which it seems you think is a failure) was considered the best solution to the ticket problem. How can you trust the same people who did their best and choose the lottery to not screw up names on tickets? You have two choices: the lottery worked out as well as could be expected, and was a good idea OR the ticketing crew are self centered idiots who only care about themselves and aren't very good at implementing systems. (Sorry for the hyperbole, but this isn't that far from what people have been posting.)

Remember these are the same people who either lied or were too dumb to know the obvious and undisputable fact that the system they set up made it so that
more then half the BM community can't get tickets
.
Is this the same crew you want running "names on tickets"?

Let's assume that half of these "ticket" people are Dick Cheney (liars) and half are the Three Stoges (stupid). So, you'll end up with half of the tickets being printed with names that are the friends of the ticketing people (who then get in for free on the ticket YOU bought) and the other half of the tickets all have versions of "Eileen Dover, Ben Dover, Phil Dover..."

Under the ID on a ticket system - UNLESS WE HAVE A VERY COMPETENT, HONEST, AND HARD WORKING TICKETING STAFF - no one will get in (except for the very lucky people actually named Bed Dover, but I think those guys are usually really bitter because they got picked on all through elementary school).
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby Malachi Constant » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:45 pm

A Jester wrote:
From what I understand, this one is the deal breaker. Wait times are projected to be long enough to back the traffic up to 447, which would cause a major safety issue, which could make the BLM lower the event cap.

I haven't heard from anyone who works Gayte that thinks this would be easy.

Also, you're talking about one extra volunteer per lane, right? So maybe 10 extra volunteers for each shift. 30 extra volunteers for maybe 2 days is 60 extra volunteers. I'm not saying you couldn't come up with 60 extra volunteers (or even that 60 would be enough, this is your estimate - not mine) but I am saying that there's a big difference between finding one extra shift filled and finding 60 extra shifts filled.



Okay, so I've had some qualms with the organization's dismissal of non-transferable tickets as a feasible option for some time now, but bit my tongue while waiting for the lottery to play out in the hopes that this grand experiment might actually work. But now that I've joined the sad ranks of lottery losers, I'm just gonna put it out there as a bit of catharsis for myself, knowing that in all likelihood mine will be just another one of the many angry voices tossed onto the pile. But whatever, shit makes me feel better so here goes. And hey, at least I was considerate enough to not start an entirely new thread for my diatribe so you're welcome, Eplaya.


I'm only going to be addressing the above quoted reason the org decided against non-transferable tickets and ignore the others (people are reluctant to show id, gifting, etc) since it's the only one I've heard stated that isn't on the surface an obvious crock.

Simply put, the idea that checking IDs to match up against a name printed on a ticket is beyond the BMORG's "means" is the stupidest shit I have ever heard try to be passed off as truth in my life. And this is coming from someone who grew up as a Southern Baptist.

Are you kidding me? Beyond your "means"? Unfeasible? Lacking the manpower? Bullshit.

For hypothetical purposes, I'm gonna double the 60 extra gate worker's needed estimate, let's say you needed 120 extra staff members on hand for two days checking id's and manning more gates to ensure that the wait in line didn't increase to unmanageable levels when the festival first opens. There are numerous ways to easily obtain such an increase in manpower. Just to name a few...


1) Increase ticket prices slightly. If you raised ticket prices just $10 across the board and sold 50,000 tickets that would give you half a million dollars right there. That extra money could either be used to increase DPW's ranks (God help us) or used to hire contract employees from an outside company to work the event for two days like every single other concert, festival and large event in the freaking world does. Yes, ticket prices are already steep as is, but I defy you to find me one Burner on this day who wouldn't gladly pay a little extra to not have to endure another shit storm like this. What, you don't want to bring in a private company to come in and make money from the event? Well too fucking bad, then find a Burner friendly private company like you found with InTicketing, or just bite the bullet and get someone that knows how to do their job properly. It's a far cry better than having theme camps split up and long time Burners left out in the cold, wouldn't you agree? Fucking duh.

2) Add incentives for volunteering at the gate. This can be done in a multitude of ways. Start a program wherein you grant people early arrival passes for Friday, with the agreement being that they come and work the gate for an entire day once it opens to the masses. Early arrival passes are so sought after you will have no shortage of people signing up. If you're worried about people flaking then you can do it like many theme camps do and offer a discounted ticket for them next year if and only if they hold up their end of the bargain. I guarantee you hundreds of repeat Burners would jump at such an opportunity. So there, not only did you just increase your workforce to handle to extra load, you did it essentially for free. Ta-da, motherfuckers.


Will adding names to tickets and checking them at the gates be easy? Of course not. But let's review the oft repeated advantages: Scaplers would be done for. It's that simple. If you could only resell your ticket back to the Org without being able to make a profit there would be no point for them whatsoever. Hoarders as well would obviously be eliminated since you wouldn't be able to buy multiple tickets then just redistribute them out to your friends as you see fit any longer. Eliminate those two groups and thousands of deserving Burners might have tickets today. The benefits are undeniable.

In closing, look, BMORG, I get it. You considered the Glasgow model and decided against it, instead feeling like this lottery and STEP system would be the easier option for you while still being fair for the rest of us. I respect that. But it didn't work, we know it, and you know it. And I'm sure you'll be reviewing the process again over the next year and hopefully you will come around. But in the meantime, don't try to feed us some line about an obviously superior system being "unfeasible" and expect us to buy it. You, with our help, build the fourth largest city in Nevada every year. You're the same group that oversees the largest Leave No Trace event ever to exist in the world. You are the same people that rebuilt a prematurely burned Man in less than a week. So don't try to tell us something this simple yet essential is beyond your means.

This is a Goddamn Do-ocracy.

So fucking do it.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby lessrules » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:21 pm

ID-registered tickets = BAD

unregistered (& freely transferrable) tickets = GOOD

I want the kind of people who do not have ID to attend Burning Man.
I want you to be able to burn anonymously if you want to.
I want wealthy people to be able to burn anonymously if they want to (and also to sponsor bars and large scale sound and art and whatever other crazy cool shit they want to share with the rest of us poor people)


If you want people to show government-issued ID to enter Burning Man, then maybe you should also consider promoting:

Government sponsorship, including military demonstrations and enlistment booths,
Running incoming burners through a gauntlet with facial recognition cameras, and a line of interrogation rooms for the farious law-en-force-ment agencies to utilize,
Dividing BM into containment sectors where you can scan your ID to freely move from sector to sector (for prevention of spread of disease or panic or for localized zombie attacks),
Establishing statutes and regulations and enforcement thereof with fines tied to your ID, with non-payment punishible by revocation of your ability to attend or withholding your income tax return,
Snipers on the hilltops,
A weather machine to cool off the public, but that can also dump golf ball size hail onto insubordinate burners that don't patricipate in BM Party mandated MOOP cleanup.

I'm fogetting something..... hmmm can't think of it, anybody?
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby liz-lemon » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:24 pm

Really sad.. I didn't get a ticket..

Still love you guys.. hope creativity thrives and we can move beyond this:
http://www.stubhub.com/burning-man-fest ... 2-4016620/

Hoping to share my art with the community soon <3

ps. I still think restricting the lame RVs and Party buses is a good idea.. also only allowing 1 ticket person and not allowing resell.

-if you can't use your ticket.. it returns back into the Burning Man system.

<3

XOXOXO
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby watchout5 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:58 am

Malachi Constant wrote:Will adding names to tickets and checking them at the gates be easy? Of course not. But let's review the oft repeated advantages: Scaplers would be done for. It's that simple. If you could only resell your ticket back to the Org without being able to make a profit there would be no point for them whatsoever. Hoarders as well would obviously be eliminated since you wouldn't be able to buy multiple tickets then just redistribute them out to your friends as you see fit any longer. Eliminate those two groups and thousands of deserving Burners might have tickets today. The benefits are undeniable.


I'm in a different position because I "won" tickets but your hyperbole must be stopped. The idea that just because we assign names to tickets that not a single scalper is going to find a way to get someone else's name on the ticket and/or make a fake ID with name and sell the ticket as some kind of a package is naive at best, you're trying to out clever someone who's made being clever their bread and butter. Scalpers would have a harder time, but how much of a harder time AND is it worth it to the community are questions that need to be asked before we make the rash decision to link each ticket to specific humans who are notoriously forgetful and dishonest, I don't want to wait in line while 50,000 people get their ID's checked, it's bad enough they check for hidden people (albeit in a sarcastically serious way). What about me wanting to buy a ticket for my burner friend who introduced this event to me 5 years ago who just lost her job that needs curbing? I can gift them anything I want at the event but if I use my credit card to put her name on a ticket that's somehow stealing burning man away from someone else? What about people without names on credit cards (prepaid, people who would normally use cash if they could)? It would do this event way better to find a larger venue, increase capacity, or find a way to do a show on the east coast like PAX did. All those options respect the community more than shoving us into a too small venue like some kind of sardines and acting like all these band-aids working together can somehow stop the the bleeding from the arm we just cut off. I'm biased, and while your idea isn't vexed with problems it's far from scalper free, and takes away the freedom I had to give my ticket to someone who I think may be more deserving of going, maybe I've abused this in the past and just got too used to it. I don't buy this idea that if we personalize the burning man experience more, even if just for getting tickets to the show, we'll keep the community closer together. Radical inclusion should be the goal of the system, it was the goal of this system and it was a MASSIVE failure, please don't replace it with another system that hurts this idea just as much, if not in some areas more.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby A Jester » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:47 am

Malachi Constant wrote:This is a Goddamn Do-ocracy.

So fucking do it.


You're doing that wrong. It works the other way.



For your other points...

Yeah, we probably should up the ticket prices. Of course, I nominate you to handle all the screaming hippies that "can't afford" a $450 ticket and are pissed already because the tiers are gone.

Your second rant only gets two points. Zero points for the early arrival incentive, I'm pretty sure that everyone who's there and working gate when the event opens already got an early arrival pass. Otherwise, they'd be in line. Staff tickets already exist. I don't know the details of them except this: work your ass off this year and we'll offer you a discount on your ticket for next year. So both your "here are hundreds more people" ideas are what is already in place. However, you ended with "Ta-da, motherfuckers." and that reminded me of Maddox, and he's fucking badass. 2 points for Gryffindor [sp?]

You haven't mentioned that fake IDs are pretty easy to get, so there's no actual benefit to the system in that sense.

In closing, they looked at the Glasgow model and decided against it. And they spent more time looking at it than you have. And they know more about the process than you do. I'm sure they'll be reviewing the process again. They are the group that oversees the large LNT even in the world, and that rebuilt the man in a week. If they say something is beyond their means, they probably mean it.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:42 pm

A Jester wrote:In closing, they looked at the Glasgow model and decided against it. And they spent more time looking at it than you have. And they know more about the process than you do. I'm sure they'll be reviewing the process again. They are the group that oversees the large LNT even in the world, and that rebuilt the man in a week. If they say something is beyond their means, they probably mean it.

Lies, lies, goddam lies!


Or maybe...spot on...
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby A Jester » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:01 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
A Jester wrote:In closing, they looked at the Glasgow model and decided against it. And they spent more time looking at it than you have. And they know more about the process than you do. I'm sure they'll be reviewing the process again. They are the group that oversees the large LNT even in the world, and that rebuilt the man in a week. If they say something is beyond their means, they probably mean it.

Lies, lies, goddam lies!


Or maybe...spot on...



Shit, you caught me. I'm lying. I'm really just a sock account for an LLC member. I spend a lot of time on ePlaya, where instead of working hard to solve the ticket problem I just insult people.
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WHY AM I BEING SUCH A DICK TOWARDS THOSE COMPLAINING

Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:16 pm

stealing from a friend, who stole it from a friend

... WHY AM I BEING SUCH A DICK TOWARDS THOSE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE TICKET PROCESS?"

It’s a fair question that I feel deserves a fair answer.

3 reasons

#1 It is pointless to complain, because it solves nothing.
#2. That energy spent complaining could be spent on productive things like, ones project.

#3 (and the biggest reason) The Lottery did something that I think this community needed. Chaos. It threw us into chaos and in that chaos, our reactions to it define our character. Study the Sun Tzu and you will discover how exposing character is as simple as testing it with challenge.

And in this way, the Lottery tells us A lot about ourselves. The most horrible of this character is all the expectations, righteousness and entitlement that has bred into the community in recent years. I know everyone wants to look at the organization, but the BOrg is but a small part of our community. They do not lead us, only organize us at a very small scale. We create the community. I think the lottery has exposed us for what we are, whiners.

You can hear it in our arguments.” Our camp will change”, “our project is threatened”, “my friends can’t go”. You hear it, "same camp", "same campmates", "same projects". The lottery has shown us a reflection of ourselves and we have gotten kind of fat and lazy about taking the event for granted. We have become expectant to be involved in a theme camp filled with the familiar. We have come to expect that we can find what we are looking for. We have come to feel entitled to be able to burn in the manner in which we are accustomed. We expect art cars and art provided for us. We expect the ability to afford tickets and entry. We expect that because we are a community, we can do whatever the majority of what people want to do. This is Burningman?

I’m sorry but I do not think this is Burningman. This is unhealthy in my eyes. I'm not trying to tell others how to burn, I'm saying I'm tired of other telling me how they want to burn. Burningman to me shows up one week out of the year and reminds me to celebrate temporariness. That change is not only inevitable but worth celebrating. I want to be challenged. I want to be thrown into chaos and discover something I did not expect. I want to be thrown into the unknown and have to meet new people and create new camps and adjust my projects and I think this is Burningman. The guy who shows up, once a year to remind me to value the gifts of chaos. For they are many and profound.

Otherwise. Burningman becomes predictable. The format is predictable, the people become predictable and the experience becomes predictable. And for this, I will kick, scream and drag “My” Burningman experience till it is not so.

I don’t expect people to agree with me, only ask that they consider it. As I considered whining to that I did not get my ticket. But instead, I decided to do something else. Something that will matter a year from now. I stood up for Chaos.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby OregonRed » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:25 pm

Simon, I really, really love you.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby dcooper2 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:34 pm

"Your lengthy post makes a number of inaccurate assumptions, starting with the subject line. The lottery has not failed."

How about now?
Eh
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby OregonRed » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:37 pm

dcooper2 wrote:
trilobyte wrote:Your lengthy post makes a number of inaccurate assumptions, starting with the subject line. The lottery has not failed. 40,000 tickets will be awarded next week.


How about now?


40,000 tickets were sold. Lottery=success.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby The CO » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:38 pm

Malachi Constant wrote:2) Add incentives for volunteering at the gate. This can be done in a multitude of ways. Start a program wherein you grant people early arrival passes for Friday, with the agreement being that they come and work the gate for an entire day once it opens to the masses. Early arrival passes are so sought after you will have no shortage of people signing up. If you're worried about people flaking then you can do it like many theme camps do and offer a discounted ticket for them next year if and only if they hold up their end of the bargain. I guarantee you hundreds of repeat Burners would jump at such an opportunity. So there, not only did you just increase your workforce to handle to extra load, you did it essentially for free. Ta-da, motherfuckers.


You don't work with volunteers very often, do you?

I advise you read this thread in its entirety before telling anyone how "easy" things can be done at the gate.


liz-lemon wrote:ps. I still think restricting the lame RVs and Party buses is a good idea.. also only allowing 1 ticket person and not allowing resell.


That's it! I'm buying a lame RV Party bus and parking it in your camp.
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:35 pm

Simon
Nothing wrong with cribbing so long as you know whom to crib from....

(And I'm going to crib Red's idea.)
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby pink » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:58 pm

Simon, I could just kiss you right now.
+1,000,000,000,000
I'm not a slut, I'm good time floozy!
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Re: Now that the lottery failed ... here is a suggestion

Postby vapor » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:26 pm

Yeah Simon, best statement I've seen on the forums. Ever.

There was a band a while back that played at the event called Lost at Last. Had no idea what that name meant for a long time. Was wondering around in a complete white out one year, realized I was totally and completely lost. And loving every minute of it. At last. I knew what the name meant. I knew that the chaos and unpredictability of Burning Man was what had kept me coming back. I realized that out of chaos and unpredictability come lessons and learning that can't possibly be a part of our usual order comfort zone. Thanks again for the reminder.
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