Lets start talking about how to fix this

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Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby gibson_ » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:20 pm

Okay so obviously this system completely ate shit this year. Lots of us are feeling rejected and sad and stressed and unsure if we're going to be going.

It's been said probably a few thousand times here that the solution is to make the tickets non-transferable. Yes, I agree, and I've been saying this since last year when it sold out.

But I'd like to take it a step further. The tickets *are* transferable, but they're only transferable *at* the gate. If you want to gift somebody a ticket, that's fine, but they have to show up to the gate with you to do it, and there is a limit to how many tickets you can transfer from yourself.

This does hurt a few edge cases (I got a ticket and now I can't go), but I think that this is a MUCH better solution that the ridiculous "lottery".

(The extra little drop of shittiness just fell on me for today. As I was typing this, gmail popped up a new email from burning man informing me that they're sorry.)
Last edited by gibson_ on Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Ugly Dougly » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:33 pm

I urge everyone to consider stepping back, and saying, Burning Man was a great idea, Larry, but you're not the only creative person in the world. We have other ways to party that are at least as good as That Thing in the Desert.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby remi » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:41 pm

I 100% agree. Non-transferable tickets. If you have a ticket that you don't want, you MUST use STEP, or your ticket will not be valid. That is the ONLY way. The reasons I've heard why NOT to use this system are pathetic. "Oh, it takes longer at the gate"... no it won't. The name on the ticket can be crossed references with an I.D. while the vehicle is being searched. This can easily be done in the amount of time it takes to search a vehicle.. so that excuse is STUPID! "Oh, what about gifting tickets".. with so many people that are unable to get tickets, I find it hard to believe that A LOT of people are gifting tickets away. Radical self reliance = get your own fucking ticket. The only excuse I don't have an arguement for are the small amount of people that don't feel 'comfortable' showing someone else there I.D.. while allowing them to go through all there personal belongings. I would rather piss off that small demographic of people, rather then the thousands upon thousands of people that have been let down today.

I gave the lotto a chance, and even though I got my ticket, it was a fail. All the scalpers put tonnes of votes in for the cheaper tickets, and that's why all the true burners on the forum paid 390$..

Man up burning man... listen to the people. We all want non-transferable tickets.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby inog » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:23 pm

If there are 50k+ tickets and 1,000 show up in the hands of scalpers, that is less than 2% of all tickets that end up with scalpers. Do you really think it is worth the added burdens and problems with non-transferable tickets and the issues with the added record keeping to avoid that 2%? Trust me, it can be a logistical nightmare.

Apply the same logic to alcohol. I would guess than more than 2% of the people who drink have had problems with alcohol at some point. Either a DUII, a missed day of work, or something. Does that warrant banning alcohol? No. We accept some of the bad with the good. Reactionary overstepping is the kind of thing that lead to crazy drug laws.

Step back and realize that this process put the vast majority of the tickets in the hands of people in the community and likely kept a lot of tickets out of the hands of scalpers.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby forge » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:37 pm

inog wrote:If there are 50k+ tickets and 1,000 show up in the hands of scalpers, that is less than 2% of all tickets that end up with scalpers. Do you really think it is worth the added burdens and problems with non-transferable tickets and the issues with the added record keeping to avoid that 2%? Trust me, it can be a logistical nightmare.

Apply the same logic to alcohol. I would guess than more than 2% of the people who drink have had problems with alcohol at some point. Either a DUII, a missed day of work, or something. Does that warrant banning alcohol? No. We accept some of the bad with the good. Reactionary overstepping is the kind of thing that lead to crazy drug laws.

Step back and realize that this process put the vast majority of the tickets in the hands of people in the community and likely kept a lot of tickets out of the hands of scalpers.


You mention the increased burden of non-transferable tickets. How much more time and energy does it really take to do this? It takes the same time and energy to verify ID with ticket as it does to verify that the ticket itself is not a fake.

1 ticket per person non-transferable insures that only those that want to go buy tickets. It basically eliminates scalpers. It makes it so everyone is reliant upon themselves to buy their own ticket. It increases overall mood because if you want to go you go buy your damn ticket instead of waiting for weeks for a lottery and then more weeks for a marketplace and then more weeks for an open sale. It allows people who want to buy early to buy early and plan long. it allows people who want to buy late the option to buy late.

The tech part of this is pretty simple as well. Each ticket is printed with the name of the person that bought it. Dynamic four color printing while a little more pricey than stock 4 color printing is very low tech in this age and if you want to claim poverty because of this then increase the cost of tickets to accommodate - fine.

If this system is so hard to implement then why has is been so easily and successfully implemented before?

We are taught in school the best answer to a solution is the simplest. This year BMORG chose the most complicated answer to the problem. A multi-step process dragged out over weeks. The simple answer is non-transferable tickets. Print names and check ID's.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby remi » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:43 pm

inog wrote:If there are 50k+ tickets and 1,000 show up in the hands of scalpers, that is less than 2% of all tickets that end up with scalpers. Do you really think it is worth the added burdens and problems with non-transferable tickets and the issues with the added record keeping to avoid that 2%? Trust me, it can be a logistical nightmare.

Apply the same logic to alcohol. I would guess than more than 2% of the people who drink have had problems with alcohol at some point. Either a DUII, a missed day of work, or something. Does that warrant banning alcohol? No. We accept some of the bad with the good. Reactionary overstepping is the kind of thing that lead to crazy drug laws.

Step back and realize that this process put the vast majority of the tickets in the hands of people in the community and likely kept a lot of tickets out of the hands of scalpers.


Non-transferable tickets is a pretty standard practice.. and perhaps BM needs to step up to the norm.

Non-transferable tickets would make it so 0% end up in scalpers hands. Much better anti-scalper system then the current lotto. There are programs made to help with the record keeping process as well. At this point, it is the best solution by far.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby inog » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:46 pm

I think the best system is to remove all independent means of ticket verification and send them out as PDF making the “hard ticket” worthless. The only legitimacy would be the source of the ticket, meaning you buy it from Burning Man, (primary sale or STEP) or someone you really really trust, as anyone with a copy machine or printer would be able to make all the fake tickets they could want.

Just make the tickets really really easy to forge.

Then if you are dumb enough to buy them from a third party... sucks to be you.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby forge » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:49 pm

remi wrote:
inog wrote:If there are 50k+ tickets and 1,000 show up in the hands of scalpers, that is less than 2% of all tickets that end up with scalpers. Do you really think it is worth the added burdens and problems with non-transferable tickets and the issues with the added record keeping to avoid that 2%? Trust me, it can be a logistical nightmare.

Apply the same logic to alcohol. I would guess than more than 2% of the people who drink have had problems with alcohol at some point. Either a DUII, a missed day of work, or something. Does that warrant banning alcohol? No. We accept some of the bad with the good. Reactionary overstepping is the kind of thing that lead to crazy drug laws.

Step back and realize that this process put the vast majority of the tickets in the hands of people in the community and likely kept a lot of tickets out of the hands of scalpers.


Non-transferable tickets is a pretty standard practice.. and perhaps BM needs to step up to the norm.

Non-transferable tickets would make it so 0% end up in scalpers hands. Much better anti-scalper system then the current lotto. There are programs made to help with the record keeping process as well. At this point, it is the best solution by far.



Totally agree. The only reason i have heard on why they did not implement this so far is that they don't have the tools or the manpower or that it was too complicated.

I'm calling Bullshit
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby brnr96 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:52 pm

Here is how to do it:

Say we have 50,000 tickets to sell. We designate a sales period that lasts 100 days, ending one month before the event...simple math tell us that this means a maximum of 500 tickets can be sold, each day of the sales period. Tiered pricing can be implemented, such that a certain percentage of each day's allocated sales takes place at each price point.

This way, everybody who wants to purchase a ticket will have a chance of buying one from the organization, at each price point, all the way through the sales period. If you don't get your ticket the first day, it's no big deal...you literally have 99 more chances to get the ticket you want, at the price you want to pay for it...persistence is rewarded.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Mr. Possibility » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:07 pm

brnr96 wrote:Here is how to do it:

Say we have 50,000 tickets to sell. We designate a sales period that lasts 100 days, ending one month before the event...simple math tell us that this means a maximum of 500 tickets can be sold, each day of the sales period. Tiered pricing can be implemented, such that a certain percentage of each day's allocated sales takes place at each price point.

This way, everybody who wants to purchase a ticket will have a chance of buying one from the organization, at each price point, all the way through the sales period. If you don't get your ticket the first day, it's no big deal...you literally have 99 more chances to get the ticket you want, at the price you want to pay for it...persistence is rewarded.


This is actually quite clever, if it weren't for the prospect of having to log into the computer at the same time daily for three months or more.

But the fact here is that there's a major scarcity issue. The only real solutions are to either negotiate a way to increase the size of the event and thus the number of available tickets or spin the event off into larger sub-events.

What I haven't heard discussed is the total number of tickets available for this year compared to attendance numbers from prior years. There's 40,000 tix in the main sale, 10,000 in the open sale, 4,000 Low income tickets and a negligible number of org supplied volunteer tix. That just over 54,000 tix. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't attendance in 2010 like 72,000? Did the BLM or local authorities put a tougher limit on the number of attendees? If not, where are the other 15,000 - 20,000 tickets?
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby alt12 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:12 pm

Fix what? There's nothing to fix here. The process has worked flawlessly. BMORG has vast resources of geniuses and they know exactly what they're doing and they've thoughtfully considered every single conceivable ticket option known to man, and even invented a few, before deciding that the 3 step lottery process plus a to-be-determined first-come-first-serve exchange process was the absolute best possible option for the situation. You have no idea the heartache, stress, and financial injury they have saved you by adopting this brilliant new process.

There is nothing to see here.

Move along.

These aren't the tickets you're looking for....
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Sugahoneyicetea » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:20 pm

I wouldn't mind seeing an update on the website saying what their thoughts are on how the lottery went.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Saigonborg » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:40 pm

I would have liked to see what would have happened this year if they had just over hauled in ticketing's servers as opposed to the whole ticketing process. Yes burning man would still sell out but I highly doubt it would be to the point where it sells out in hours or even days. Right now we don't even know what the true number of tickets demanded would have been because so many people recruited others to enter for them multiple times. This year would have been a good one for gathering data but now we just won't ever know.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby BBadger » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:54 pm

AW LAWRDY! We're only done with 1/3rd of the ticket sale system, the lottery component, and now we're already making plans to flip-turn upside-down the whole system after we haven't even evaluated the entire plan? Were you also the types who expected Obama to fix the economy single-handed in a year?

Let's have a little patience people. Think a little longer-term. So not everyone in your group got their ticket. Was it going to be different in any other system where demand is greater than supply? It wasn't scalpers that caused that.

And so the tickets got spread out among more people, even some who gamed the system. Did those tickets just magically disappear? No. They're still in "the system" and what more, there will be a nice STEP program to facilitate fair exchange of such tickets. Just because you rolled the dice wrong doesn't mean the system itself is flawed. The tickets are out-there, and at least they're mostly in burner hands (or confirmation emails)

Non-transferable tickets tagged to specific individuals? No thanks. I like being able to buy tickets for friends who are not "on the ball" about getting their own. Nor do I know exactly who gets my ticket at purchase time. We pool our resources together, maybe some of us were able to get tickets via other means. The ability to transfer tickets is vital for many of us.

Transferring tickets only via STEPs? Maybe, but even then people could change an extra "service charge" prior to the actual transfer. It'd be the same thing as scalping, only the actual ticket amount portion would go through STEPs. Might be good for counterfeit tickets though.

Saigonborg wrote:I would have liked to see what would have happened this year if they had just over hauled in ticketing's servers as opposed to the whole ticketing process. Yes burning man would still sell out but I highly doubt it would be to the point where it sells out in hours or even days. Right now we don't even know what the true number of tickets demanded would have been because so many people recruited others to enter for them multiple times. This year would have been a good one for gathering data but now we just won't ever know.


27000 tickets sold out within about 1.5 days of last year's sale. Yes, I would expect them to sell out very quickly. What more, in such an open-purchase system it is very easy to buy tickets for scalping. It was why the lottery was conceived in the first place.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby test4echo_2112 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:55 pm

There is no fixing this. Burning Man is dead. The Principles are forgotten. Sad to say it but the truth is clear to me.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:57 pm

BBadger wrote:I like being able to buy tickets for friends who are not "on the ball" about getting their own.

It's all your fault, Badger. If you weren't rewarding your friends who don't plan this would never have happened. It's all over this sub-forum...
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Mojojita » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:33 pm

One problem with the OP's solution is the potential hardship and resulting bottleneck at the gate - not from having to scan tickets, but from what happens when someone shows up with a forged (copied) ticket. At that point, it becomes gate's problem to have to deal with irate, disappointed, financially screwed-over people. It then becomes Gerlach's problem as those people hang out and filter through the local area. It becomes Perimeter's problem when they then try to sneak in.

There are just lots of reasons we don't want multiple dumb-asses left on the doorstep....

Not to mention the cruelty to dumb-asses argument...
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby motskyroonmatick » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:44 pm

Work with the BLM to increase the population cap to 75K. Start the event on Saturday and burn the Man on Friday

I know there is a torrent of side effects from doing this but we went from 25K to 50K with the typical kicking and screaming. We can do 75K no problem.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby brnr96 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:32 pm

Mr. Possibility wrote:
brnr96 wrote:Here is how to do it:

Say we have 50,000 tickets to sell. We designate a sales period that lasts 100 days, ending one month before the event...simple math tell us that this means a maximum of 500 tickets can be sold, each day of the sales period. Tiered pricing can be implemented, such that a certain percentage of each day's allocated sales takes place at each price point.

This way, everybody who wants to purchase a ticket will have a chance of buying one from the organization, at each price point, all the way through the sales period. If you don't get your ticket the first day, it's no big deal...you literally have 99 more chances to get the ticket you want, at the price you want to pay for it...persistence is rewarded.


This is actually quite clever, if it weren't for the prospect of having to log into the computer at the same time daily for three months or more.


You could stagger the log-in times, to occur several times per day, with x number of tickets sold, at noon, 3pm, 9pm, etc.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:37 pm

Where do we send the people who come early? I'm sure d-lot isn't infinite and turning the car around increases the gate cluster fuck and clogs up Gerlach, making us bad neighbors.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby RedHeaven » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:10 pm

We must let the bubble burst and let the energy disperse, share it, live it, take all of that inspiration and let it shine, Keep on keepin' on, take the love to a new Burny Level Everywhere.

Sure, nothing is quite like that Labor Day Weekend. We gather together and do something so fucking beautiful. SO THANKFUL that it has been in my life.

I know this is going to sound like hippy shit reference but let me finish. I grew up punk rock in a kind of mean crowd. When I discovered the Grateful Dead in fucking 1995, I felt like a new person. It really did change my world! Even just one Sunday show....it was a new feeling for me. Then Jerry passed away a MONTH later. I thought, no way, no way could this be the end for me. And it wasnt, it was only the beginning. That energy dispersed and grew with the times. So whether Bman implodes or morphs, I know we can all take the feelings we have shared and the things we have learned and work it into the world as gracefully as possible.

Its hippy thoughts but its all I got right now. Change....Temporary.....Flux......and somewhere in there fits Tradition. Oh how I love comforting tradition, but it is fickle.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby cooked 2242 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:29 pm

BBadger wrote:AW LAWRDY! We're only done with 1/3rd of the ticket sale system, the lottery component, and now we're already making plans to flip-turn upside-down the whole system after we haven't even evaluated the entire plan? Were you also the types who expected Obama to fix the economy single-handed in a year?

Let's have a little patience people. Think a little longer-term. So not everyone in your group got their ticket. Was it going to be different in any other system where demand is greater than supply? It wasn't scalpers that caused that.

And so the tickets got spread out among more people, even some who gamed the system. Did those tickets just magically disappear? No. They're still in "the system" and what more, there will be a nice STEP program to facilitate fair exchange of such tickets. Just because you rolled the dice wrong doesn't mean the system itself is flawed. The tickets are out-there, and at least they're mostly in burner hands (or confirmation emails)

Non-transferable tickets tagged to specific individuals? No thanks. I like being able to buy tickets for friends who are not "on the ball" about getting their own. Nor do I know exactly who gets my ticket at purchase time. We pool our resources together, maybe some of us were able to get tickets via other means. The ability to transfer tickets is vital for many of us.

Transferring tickets only via STEPs? Maybe, but even then people could change an extra "service charge" prior to the actual transfer. It'd be the same thing as scalping, only the actual ticket amount portion would go through STEPs. Might be good for counterfeit tickets though.

Saigonborg wrote:I would have liked to see what would have happened this year if they had just over hauled in ticketing's servers as opposed to the whole ticketing process. Yes burning man would still sell out but I highly doubt it would be to the point where it sells out in hours or even days. Right now we don't even know what the true number of tickets demanded would have been because so many people recruited others to enter for them multiple times. This year would have been a good one for gathering data but now we just won't ever know.


27000 tickets sold out within about 1.5 days of last year's sale. Yes, I would expect them to sell out very quickly. What more, in such an open-purchase system it is very easy to buy tickets for scalping. It was why the lottery was conceived in the first place.



No one is really saying BMORG had bad intentions. But a little nostalgia and trying to please everyone created a gaping hole for exploitation and what ended up coming to be has really pissed off a lot of people. So what to do?

Issuing tickets with names like an airline is probably possible but definitely more complicated. Basically creating a more expensive ticket process.

I’m inclined to go the other way and simplify. Kill the tiers – and STEP too. $325 per ticket is a pretty workable number in the scheme of things. Early purchase and the late delivery is good.

This year scalpers saw BM as the biggest bonanza ever because they could potentially buy a ticket at 240 and sell it at 390 virtually guaranteed. If a frenzy of fear materializes – the sky’s the limit. They also knew BMORG had their backs if they accidentally ordered too much or the bottom fell out of the price – STEP. This was the biggest driver for out of control buying by scalpers, cover your ass burner overbuying, price gaming and amateur burner scalpers (Hmmm, is it really scalping if I sell a 240 for 390 – its not printed on the ticket…)

On the other hand - Take this year’s deal and remove tiers and STEP. Now no burners overbuy because there’s no gain in tiers and extra tickets are harder to move. Way less attractive to scalpers because they have to gamble that it will sell out and that demand will drive prices much higher to make some money.

I think as a general rule simple is better for the buyers and sellers – much more transparent. If the tiers are gone and over-ordering carries a risk or at least a hassle, I think 90% of the bullshit is gone and then it’s a fair race for the tickets. And that’s all anyone really wants is a fair shot. This year was an unfair game.

And it has to be acknowledged that this does suck for everyone to not know and is creating a lot of bad energy and stress. And moderators need to stop telling people they’re just stupid and naive and that they exclusively have the wisdom of Buddha. You all sound like an ignorant fucking high school vice principals. If everybody’s screaming that this sucks – it sucks.

Next time will be better – until then it’s a great opportunity to enhance your tolerance for suffering while this experiment sorts itself out in an incredibly slow way. And I do believe the casualties will be relatively modest overall in terms of attendance – but high in terms of cost and buzzkill. At our house, we’re one ticket short and we’ll make it happen one way or another but I’m filled with dread.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Zoo » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:39 pm

Well, let's be honest here. The ticket process has never been fair. It rewarded people who had available funds early in the year and were able to take a weekday morning off. Yes, the lotto system doesn't appear to have worked out as intended (or at least, as we're assuming it was intended) at this point, but at least it did address that problem.

I've been saying for years that BM tickets should have only two tiers (not counting scholarships/low income/etc), one the runs for a couple weeks with unlimited tickets, and one the runs the next 6 months. It would ease server stress, give everyone a chance to get tickets at the same price, and still give BOrg an estimate on how sales will do that year. I don't know that they really need that at this point, with BM reaching it's cap last year. Maybe now all they need to do is tier the low income tickets and make everyone else buy one set price.

Although I must admit, I don't really understand why there's a cap, it seems as though there's plenty of space on the playa for everyone who could possibly want to go. If that problem was solved, BOrg could easily make one tier for a month or two, then some additional percentage of tickets sold in the first tier available at the second tier. For example, I understand that last year 53,000 or so tickets were sold. If 40,000 were sold in the first month, that would mean that 1/3 of tickets are sold later than February. The next year they have two tiers, the first running one month. The second tier would consist of 33% of the total sold in the first tier. This would give BOrg an estimate of how much infrastructure would be needed with enough time to make preparations, stop the first day server crush, be equitable to people with fixed working schedules, and still encourage people to buy tickets early enough to give BOrg the funds it needs to pay costs early in the year. Of course, it all depends on BOrg being able to renegotiate it's contract for the use of the land.

What I'd really like to know is why the lottery system was adopted in the first place. BOrg aren't idiots. They're not trying to screw people. I'm sure it was discussed and several options considered. I'd just like to know what the thought process was, and what they thought the effect would be.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Stickygreen » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:53 pm

the only issue is that demand is greater than supply.

there are only 2 possible answers.


answer = Increase supply

get the BLM to allow more people at Burning Man, do whatever they say needs to be done to extend the capacity of the event. If that's, build a wider road thru Gerlach, or Add more cops, Pay more money.. whatever, this is really the basis of the supply issue is that the BLM has a capacity and it isn't going up at the same rate that it once did.

answer = decrease demand

This is what will happen eventually, some say it already has, but whatever... I'm not going to debate if Burning Man was better last year, cause we all know it was!
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby danibel » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:09 am

Zoo wrote:Although I must admit, I don't really understand why there's a cap, it seems as though there's plenty of space on the playa for everyone who could possibly want to go.


One reason there is a cap because hwy 447 is only two lanes and there is no plan to increase it. Why would they? It's a lonely highway at every other time of the year.

The Reno Gazzette had an interesting article today:
<snip>
Last week, Burning Man organizers at Black Rock City, LLC, said prospective Burners flooded the ticket registration with extra requests, significantly exceeding supply. Ultimately 53,000 tickets will be distributed this year when another 10,000 tickets are sold during a first-come-first-serve online sale starting at 12 p.m. March 28.

Meanwhile, organizers will launch an online marketplace for Burners to sell tickets to fellow Burners on Feb. 22, part of an effort to encourage people to sell extra or unneeded tickets at face value.

Burning Man organizers said they implemented the random drawing this year to control the growing demand for tickets to the annual festival in the Black Rock Desert, which sold out for the first time last year.

Black Rock City, LLC, must limit Black Rock City's population because of its permit with the U.S. Bureau of Land Management. During the past five years, that population cap has been 50,000 people, on average, over the course of the eight-day event.

A new, and tentative, five-year permit with the BLM would increase the population to 58,000 people in 2012 and 70,000 people by 2016. It's currently going through an environmental assessment, which includes studies into the event's effect on roadways leading to the playa, local economies and soil, among other considerations.

Following a public comment period in March, the permit could be approved by June, said Cory Roegner, the outdoor recreation planner for the BLM in Nevada.

Meanwhile, Roegner said the BLM still would have the option to limit Black Rock City's population to 50,000 people -- less than the number of tickets promised to be distributed this year.
</end snip>

Just saying "increase the circle" doesn't fly. Though the Org is trying to do just that. I don't know if that is really a good idea. I spent hours in exodus last year and I am going to do whatever I can to stay till Tuesday to avoid that again.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Zoo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:48 am

That's actually an excellent point danibel. I hadn't considered the roadway restriction. Still solvable, obviously, but at least it's a starting place.
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Mr. Possibility » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:08 am

motskyroonmatick wrote:Work with the BLM to increase the population cap to 75K. Start the event on Saturday and burn the Man on Friday

I know there is a torrent of side effects from doing this but we went from 25K to 50K with the typical kicking and screaming. We can do 75K no problem.


Genius! Now someone's talking some sense! BLM has got to love the revenues it receives from Burning Man and last I saw the playa clean-up map was pretty damn green so why not expand the city?

I know this may be oversimplifying things but can the agreements with the BLM and local authorities really be so tenuous? I doubt it. Roughly $8 million goes through the org each year. I can't imagine much of that is spent before they're certain they'll be an event and Burning Man has held up it's end of the bargain for 20+ years. It's time to grow the city and perhaps this is exactly the event needed to precipitate that change!
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby danibel » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:12 am

Mr. Possibility wrote:
motskyroonmatick wrote:Work with the BLM to increase the population cap to 75K. Start the event on Saturday and burn the Man on Friday

I know there is a torrent of side effects from doing this but we went from 25K to 50K with the typical kicking and screaming. We can do 75K no problem.


Genius! Now someone's talking some sense! BLM has got to love the revenues it receives from Burning Man and last I saw the playa clean-up map was pretty damn green so why not expand the city?

I know this may be oversimplifying things but can the agreements with the BLM and local authorities really be so tenuous? I doubt it. Roughly $8 million goes through the org each year. I can't imagine much of that is spent before they're certain they'll be an event and Burning Man has held up it's end of the bargain for 20+ years. It's time to grow the city and perhaps this is exactly the event needed to precipitate that change!



Grow the city all you want. It's not going to increase the capacity of the road!
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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby copilot602 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:13 am

I am reiterating some things already said here but...
The lottery system sucks because it creates false scarcity by making people worry that they will not get tickets and therefore encouraging them to game the system, reducing the overall number of tickets. How many people do you know who figured out ways to enter themselves more than once in the lottery (spouses, friends, etc...?) Now multiply that by 30-40k ticket buyers. I would love to know how many entrees there were in the lottery. Gaurantee that # is much higher than actual final ticket sales.

The goals for ticket sales should be:
1. Let people who want the tickets the most get them.
2. Limit gaming of system and scalpers.

The obvious way to address the first goal is the old system of selling the tickets on a first come, first serve basis. The people who want to go will take the time to make sure they get one. Worked just fine till last year and the complaints came from people who waited till the last minute to get tickets and then couldn’t believe it was sold out. (online server-fail sucked but wasn’t the core problem)
To achieve the second goal you only have to make the tickets non-transferable and require the use of a system like STEP. The tickets come printed with the purchasers name, serial #, and “NON-TRANSFERABLE” printed in bold letters. Check the name against identification at the gate. Doesn’t match up? Don’t get in. Don’t need a ticket you bought? Sell it back ONLINE to BM at a sliding discounted rate that gets lower as the event get closer. Didn’t get a ticket but needed one? You’re on the waiting list. Not sure if your ticket is valid? Go online and verify it using STEP. No chance for scalpers to get involved, you now have access to all the unneeded tickets around the country not just the ones on your local craigslist, and everyone who puts in the effort to get a ticket in a timely manner gets one. Simple.

The system they created this year seems to have been the worst possible solution...not sure who is taking credit for it ...

Sad, but glad I wasn’t trying to go this year… Good luck to everyone who got screwed.

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Re: Lets start talking about how to fix this

Postby Mr. Possibility » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:17 am

danibel wrote:
Mr. Possibility wrote:
motskyroonmatick wrote:Work with the BLM to increase the population cap to 75K. Start the event on Saturday and burn the Man on Friday

I know there is a torrent of side effects from doing this but we went from 25K to 50K with the typical kicking and screaming. We can do 75K no problem.


Genius! Now someone's talking some sense! BLM has got to love the revenues it receives from Burning Man and last I saw the playa clean-up map was pretty damn green so why not expand the city?

I know this may be oversimplifying things but can the agreements with the BLM and local authorities really be so tenuous? I doubt it. Roughly $8 million goes through the org each year. I can't imagine much of that is spent before they're certain they'll be an event and Burning Man has held up it's end of the bargain for 20+ years. It's time to grow the city and perhaps this is exactly the event needed to precipitate that change!



Grow the city all you want. It's not going to increase the capacity of the road!


We need a rich benefactor to build us a new highway.
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