The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby danibel » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:41 pm

Why not do ticket sales like the Grateful Dead did their overly popular New Years Eve? All ticket requests by mail, postmarked by a certain date?

I think one reason there was so many over registrations is because it was too damn easy to register. A few fields on web form, ask your mom, brother, friend to do the same...Too easy. I know the org doesn't want to make it hard, but this would ensure that truly motivated people request tickets.

I don't know. It's a thought I had.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby A Jester » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:17 pm

I think an issue with that system might be that there would be around 60,000 applicants, which is a lot of mail to read.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby frankbank » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:33 pm

LOTTO IS ALMOST HERE WOOOO
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby jkisha » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:38 pm

A Jester wrote:I think an issue with that system might be that there would be around 60,000 applicants, which is a lot of mail to read.

It appears that they are "scrubbing" the database by hand, can't see how that would be much different than opening individual emails.

But all of these post serve no other purpose than to vent and maybe relieve stress. All suggestions made here are surely in vain, so why bother?
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby Just_Joe » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:58 pm

danibel wrote:Why not do ticket sales like the Grateful Dead did their overly popular New Years Eve? All ticket requests by mail, postmarked by a certain date?

Whaa?
No "magic marker envelope decorating hippie" comment ?
I guess everyone's mellowing out.......
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby A Jester » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:05 pm

jkisha wrote:
A Jester wrote:I think an issue with that system might be that there would be around 60,000 applicants, which is a lot of mail to read.

It appears that they are "scrubbing" the database by hand, can't see how that would be much different than opening individual emails.

But all of these post serve no other purpose than to vent and maybe relieve stress. All suggestions made here are surely in vain, so why bother?


The mail idea expressed was snail mail...
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby lemur » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:16 pm

problem solved!!!

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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby jorgebongo » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:37 pm

50,000 people doing will call I don't see a problem with that, don't you.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby jkisha » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:46 pm

A Jester wrote:
jkisha wrote:
A Jester wrote:I think an issue with that system might be that there would be around 60,000 applicants, which is a lot of mail to read.

It appears that they are "scrubbing" the database by hand, can't see how that would be much different than opening individual emails.

But all of these post serve no other purpose than to vent and maybe relieve stress. All suggestions made here are surely in vain, so why bother?


The mail idea expressed was snail mail...

Poop, I knew that. Typo, or maybe brain fart.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby test4echo_2112 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:47 pm

Better communication of the entire process eliminates future fear, anger, and resentment. Discuss any further, proposed solutions with the community well before execution. Outline the exact step-by-step solutions, literally. Who outside the Org knew about the STEP solution before last weeks annoucement? I didn't and I try to keep myself informed. As far as I can tell, there still isn't a resource page specifically outlining STEP. That information should be posted now instead of waiting and it should be clearly communicated to all Lottery participants.

If the Org wants community buy-in, get the community involved. No closed-door discussions about ticket sales. No more gotcha's. Survey the community about solutions moving foward. Ask US what we'd like to see. I might not have the answer ... but someone out here does.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby lemur » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:03 am

test4echo_2112 wrote:Better communication of the entire process eliminates future fear, anger, and resentment. Discuss any further, proposed solutions with the community well before execution. Outline the exact step-by-step solutions, literally. Who outside the Org knew about the STEP solution before last weeks annoucement? I didn't and I try to keep myself informed. As far as I can tell, there still isn't a resource page specifically outlining STEP. That information should be posted now instead of waiting and it should be clearly communicated to all Lottery participants.

If the Org wants community buy-in, get the community involved. No closed-door discussions about ticket sales. No more gotcha's. Survey the community about solutions moving foward. Ask US what we'd like to see. I might not have the answer ... but someone out here does.



Most communication to the community from the LLC comes in the form of the Jack Rabbit Speaks Newsletter (you can find it easily with a quick google search)

STEP (not by name) was announced 1 week after the lottery was announced, in November 2011.

[Absolutely right. More info available soon on STEP, probably this week. Sorry for the edit. -- Savannah]
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby A Jester » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:05 am

test4echo_2112 wrote:Better communication of the entire process eliminates future fear, anger, and resentment. Discuss any further, proposed solutions with the community well before execution. Outline the exact step-by-step solutions, literally. Who outside the Org knew about the STEP solution before last weeks annoucement? I didn't and I try to keep myself informed. As far as I can tell, there still isn't a resource page specifically outlining STEP. That information should be posted now instead of waiting and it should be clearly communicated to all Lottery participants.

If the Org wants community buy-in, get the community involved. No closed-door discussions about ticket sales. No more gotcha's. Survey the community about solutions moving foward. Ask US what we'd like to see. I might not have the answer ... but someone out here does.



I think part of the problem is that the community is so large it's very difficult to get a buy in. Each step of the way people who haven't been a part of the conversation would have to be caught up, and perhaps convinced to support the previous decisions. Eplaya is not the actual community, even posting the whole discussion here wouldn't achieve this.

Another problem with the large community is that sometimes people get busy and miss things. For instance, the resale market (now called STEP) was announced last November. There's also a small blurb about it on the Ticket page at the BM site. It's definitely been discussed here and on other sites and lists. Yet, it's still very reasonable for a diehard Burner to not have heard about this. To answer your question: everyone who actively followed the ticket threads on this board, and everyone who reads all their JRS knew about the resell market. I'm sure some people who don't do those things heard about it through the grapevine. What's that, maybe 1/3 of all participants? Is there a better way for the Org to share this information?

One important thing to remember about Burning Man is that it's not a democracy, it's a doacracy. So, the people that decide to step up and volunteer are the ones who end up making the decisions.

I want to definitely agree with you about the communication, though. I think what might have happened is that the Org decided to release information sooner rather than later (like telling us about the resale market in November). However, the down side to this is that they don't have all the details to share. Personally, I'd rather have a grain of knowledge - "Hey, we're going to so some website thing to give you a place to resell tickets some time after the main sale is over." and some ambiguity than no knowledge at all.

However, it's causing such consternation that it appears I may be in a minority. It might actually be better if the Org withheld information until, as you suggest, they were able to give us detailed step by step walkthroughs.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby jorgebongo » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:46 am

Ok everyone I just wanted to say good luck in the lotto and that I hope everyone gets a ticket!!!!! Good Vibes for all
Good news I hooked up with some cats that are building a couple of art cars and they sound like they need some help. Regardless of getting a ticket I'm going to put my heart and soul into those cars, it will be sooooo cool!
Have a wonderful day, I'm going to go hang out with my 2 year old and go for a walk around a lake... Peace
Oh and hit the refresh on my mail box every 5 minutes or so...just sayin
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby A Jester » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:18 pm

jorgebongo wrote:Ok everyone I just wanted to say good luck in the lotto and that I hope everyone gets a ticket!!!!! Good Vibes for all
Good news I hooked up with some cats that are building a couple of art cars and they sound like they need some help. Regardless of getting a ticket I'm going to put my heart and soul into those cars, it will be sooooo cool!
Have a wonderful day, I'm going to go hang out with my 2 year old and go for a walk around a lake... Peace
Oh and hit the refresh on my mail box every 5 minutes or so...just sayin


Seems like your wishes worked! Lots of people have gotten tickets. I have to say that for my part:

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/35v0iy/
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby BBadger » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:35 pm

test4echo_2112 wrote:If the Org wants community buy-in, get the community involved. No closed-door discussions about ticket sales. No more gotcha's. Survey the community about solutions moving foward. Ask US what we'd like to see. I might not have the answer ... but someone out here does.


I know this isn't what you want to hear, but often the process is opaque on purpose in order to prevent observation by bad actors, and carry out types of social engineering for a specific goal. For mitigating the effects of bad actors it can mean anything from preventing scalpers from understanding and exploiting weaknesses in the system to preventing other event organizers from understanding the inner-workings of BMOrg. For social engineering, decisions like pushing off the announcement of the STEP program could be to change how people view their entry into the lottery as a short-term decision rather than a long-term one.

With regards to solutions moving forward, a problem with step-by-step transparency is that it draws scrutiny at every stage. Now that may seem like a good thing, but given the amount of flak received just for rumors on the lottery, you're looking at a lot of noise being generated needlessly (I say needlessly because generally there is no feedback loop, so it is just noise here on the forums). We all don't like being in the dark, but sometimes coaxing individuals into a certain system means that they can't be privy to all the innerworkings.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby A Jester » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:07 pm

So, I have another idea:

The pop limit is kinda sorta based on the amount of traffic 447 can handle.

What if you sold one ticket for a vehicle, and another ticket for passengers. Tour buses, vans, etc would suddenly become a more viable option. While increasing the population limit, you wouldn't have to increase the amount of vehicles on the road.


Just a brainstorm.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby lessrules » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:16 pm

A Jester wrote:So, I have another idea:

The pop limit is kinda sorta based on the amount of traffic 447 can handle.

What if you sold one ticket for a vehicle, and another ticket for passengers. Tour buses, vans, etc would suddenly become a more viable option. While increasing the population limit, you wouldn't have to increase the amount of vehicles on the road.


Just a brainstorm.


I think you have sprouted a good idea there.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:17 am

Oh boy, we hashed that one over good in the "shrink the entry line" thread. I think it's in "Transportation" in the "Preparation" sub-fora.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby A Jester » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:26 am

I looked but to little avail. I'd be interested in seeing how that convo went. If Lazyweb wants to help me out with a link, I'll give you karma.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby lemur » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:52 pm

in all of its glory

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=50194
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby danibel » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:59 pm

A Jester wrote:So, I have another idea:

The pop limit is kinda sorta based on the amount of traffic 447 can handle.

What if you sold one ticket for a vehicle, and another ticket for passengers. Tour buses, vans, etc would suddenly become a more viable option. While increasing the population limit, you wouldn't have to increase the amount of vehicles on the road.


Just a brainstorm.



You mean like this thread suggested: viewtopic.php?f=290&t=52644
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby hotmess » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:43 pm

vapor wrote:I would suggest not mailing tickets until early August and keep all ticket sales within a STEP program of some sort. As much as we all like to have our tickets in hand early I don't think there's an absolute need. I believe this would reduce most chances of scalping or counterfeiting while still allowing enough time for personal exchanges.


Good idea. I believe this would help keep the tickets in the STEP program and in the community.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby danibel » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:23 pm

I like the idea of not shipping tickets until August either. Keep the paper out of the hands of resellers as long as possible. The people that bought all those extras to profit will have to sit for 60 MORE days on the cash/credit they extended.

I am perfectly fine with the BMorg holding my paper ticket until August. Less opportunity for me to misplace it, and it would keep counterfeits off the streets as well. It's not a complete solution for this fucking fiasco, but I think it could help a lot.

Good idea.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:52 pm

It doesn't leave much of a cushion for unexpected things to happen. I guess the Canadian postal strike is over, but that could have complicated things past three weeks.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby danibel » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:22 pm

True, but if there are issues can't the BMorg switch the ticket to be will call? Like say you haven't received a hard copy by the 10th of August or something?

Like I said, it's not a complete solution, but it may help keep the secondary market at face value (Forced through STEP?!), and counterfeit copies would be less.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby BEASTMASTERBURNS » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:32 pm

[b]I CAN SOLVE THE TICKET PROBLEM! HEAR ME OUT! [b]. I am the beastmaster. PLEASE READ. everyone who recieved a denial email should be entered into the lottery for 2013. We need to hold the lottery NOW. Instead of 40% of people receiving tickets for this year, 80 percent of people will have tickets for this year or next year. The STEP program will be BOOMING with entire camps trading tickets,
There will be plenty now to go around as camps decide this year or next year. All the people who signed up two or three times will now have extra tickets which can be sold via STEP at FACE VALUE. I believe everyone who signed up for a ticket can get one. THE CITY OF DREAMS CAN BE HOME TO 100,000 HAPPY BURNERS, ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS TAKE TURNS. with the increase in supply all the would be scalpers would be forced to sell their tickets at face value, and never try to scalp a burning man ticket again. NO BURNER WILL EVER HAVE TO PAY 2000 DOLLARS AND LEAVE HALF THEIR FRIENDS AT HOME. Thus process can be repeated in 2014. Just sell tickets for two years and let the people decide what year is better. With the lottery some folks will be lucky enough to go both years BUT this way no camp will.ever be split in two. I LOVE YOU AND I LOVE BLACKROCK CITY WE CAN'T LET IT BE DESTROYED SIMPLY BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE WANT TO GO. please repost in every thread until burning man organizers hear the word!
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby Bagelfather » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:37 am

I have worked in fraud for a number of years and I have been thinking a bit about this situation. Mind you the buying of tickets by scalpers is technically not fraud, but if you take the same approach in this manner you will be able to make it harder for some to gain the system.

I will throw out a suggestion for the lottery system if we kept the basic idea into 2013. That would be to invert the pricing and do the lottery in stages. You would have the more expensive pre-sale and then a 2-3 week block with tiered pricing starting at the highest and working down. Now a lot of people can't afford the higher tiered pricing, but many of us can. This would encourage people with the funds to buy earlier at the higher tiered pricing. This is what I did to ensure I had a better chance for tickets and I could afford paying more to allow other burners a better chance at a lower price.

The next problem we have is people buying tickets to make a profit. Sadly this is human nature (greed) and this is a commodity just like corn, or oil. People are buying low on the hopes that the commodity can be sold at a higher price later. If I was an unscrupulous person who felt I could make $500+ profit I would probably do so. The way to fight this is to make it harder to sell your product. This is where we would need volunteers and people running BM to take part.

Ebay is an easy way to sell things, but it is not an unstoppable juggernaut. In my many years of fighting fraud for online companies we had to deal with illegal auctions on Ebay and other sites. I am not sure of the legal process, but you could have it written into the terms of service of the purchase that the ticket may not be sold for more than 5% above the purchase price. The pricing would be stamped on the ticket and the 5% would cover shipping, handling, and processing fees. You could further go into the TOS and define that it may not be resold through a ticketing agency or online auction except as noted. So now with Ebay you use their VeRo program to report illegal sales. Not only that, but you report the person to PayPal. PayPal will likely lock out the account for several months and thus assets are frozen. In addition with VeRo Ebay will take down the auction almost immediately.

Ticket resellers who violate TOS would have to be served a Cease and Desist letter.

That leaves craigslist as the last remaining major venue for selling tickets. Contacting them and having the ad pulled isn't too hard.

What other steps can be taken?

There are a number of anti-fraud techniques that need to be performed. Most of them I don't want to post here as to give people a leg up in fighting BM efforts. However, you can run an analysis on the orders to find patterns of potential abuse and then delay those sales until an investigation is completed. I'm a fraud analyst, this is what I do for a living for eight years. Shipping addresses, IP addresses, login information, don't accept orders from anonymous proxies, etc.

Names on tickets is going to be hard to enforce with people trading tickets if someone cannot go etc and it would be a hassle to issue new ones, update the database, etc.

In taking a positive step in the direction of keeping such activities from happening again I did email BM to offer my help and experience. You can never stop fraud, scalpers, etc. However, you can reduce the amount of it so that the impact is minimal.

In the interim period there is no actual ticket available and thus BM should be able to shut down Ebay Sales based on that.

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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby Herring » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:35 am

Combine the eliminating tiers idea with the non-transferrable names printed on tickets idea.

Yes, you can purchase a $240 ticket, but you better be sure as hell you can make it because that ticket can't be transferred to any other burner. Make that true for every tier but the highest. You would like to gift tickets? You're not totally committed to going but want a ticket just in case? Need a bunch of tickets for your giant camp? Don't believe in bringing your ID to the gate? Transferrable no-name $490 top tier tickets are for you!

Lower tier tickets become less scarce because they're only being purchased by burners committed to attending and can't be resold at the higher tier price by scalpers or flakes. I really don't think checking names at the gate will make the traffic that much worse than it already is.
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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby CornMan » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:07 am

Herring wrote:Combine the eliminating tiers idea with the non-transferrable names printed on tickets idea.

Yes, you can purchase a $240 ticket, but you better be sure as hell you can make it because that ticket can't be transferred to any other burner. Make that true for every tier but the highest. You would like to gift tickets? You're not totally committed to going but want a ticket just in case? Need a bunch of tickets for your giant camp? Don't believe in bringing your ID to the gate? Transferrable no-name $490 top tier tickets are for you!

Lower tier tickets become less scarce because they're only being purchased by burners committed to attending and can't be resold at the higher tier price by scalpers or flakes. I really don't think checking names at the gate will make the traffic that much worse than it already is.


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Re: The non-repeat, non-negative lottery feedback thread.

Postby lemur » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:33 am

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