Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

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Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby Arcticcircle » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:52 pm

The defenders of the lotto post so often and vigorously, if you perusing the boards and not paying attention you'd almost think that the proponents and opponents of the new system are about evenly split. Until you realize that there are, like, 5 defenders who comprise the majority of the posts. I don't get it. Do you think if you get the BORG's back at every turn that Larry Harvey himself will fly through your living room window upon a flaming winged jackrabbit and give you the golden key to BRC? Kidding kidding. Kind of.
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:53 pm

*gentle snore*
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby ygmir » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:59 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:*gentle snore*


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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:28 pm

why do you give a crap if someone disagrees with you ?
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby piehole » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:33 pm

get over it!
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby Elliot » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:36 pm

Arcticcircle wrote:...Larry Harvey himself will fly through your living room window upon a flaming winged jackrabbit and give you the golden key to BRC?

I'm Elliot and I approve of this poster's writing style.
:D
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby jella » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:39 pm

Elliot wrote:
Arcticcircle wrote:...Larry Harvey himself will fly through your living room window upon a flaming winged jackrabbit and give you the golden key to BRC?

I'm Elliot and I approve of this poster's writing style.
:D

+1 ....best giggle so far
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby wh..sh » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:48 pm

Arcticcircle wrote:Do you think if you get the BORG's back at every turn that Larry Harvey himself will fly through your living room window upon a flaming winged jackrabbit and give you the golden key to BRC?


Wait a second... My cat was sitting on the windowsill and wha..at is that I see... a dead jackrabbit!
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby Arcticcircle » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:13 pm

Here kitty kitty.... drop it... drop it... good kitty.

Lemur, the small, vocal group of defenders are of course entitled to their opinions... anyone is. And believe me, anyone who has taken a look-see at this thread has heard it loud and clear. The message has gotten through. But it's just getting to the point where I can't even find a thread that gets any momentum with an idea exchange, because a core group of pro-lotto folks keep interrupting the flow. I get it, some people love the lotto. Cool. It's your year. Can the rest of us just talk about it and make suggestions without being constantly interrupted by the same 5 people saying that they love the lotto? It's like being at a party where someone is monopolizing the proverbial talking stick and stunting what could be a more fruitful and organic conversation, perhaps producing better ideas that would ultimately serve us all.

I'm really frustrated by the recent choices of the BORG, but ultimately I really love you guys, I appreciate passionate people and I think the pro-lottos just love BM and want to give the BORG some support. I just think that some of the eplaya activity has been pretty heavy-handed on the pro-lotto side, and gives a distorted view of your average burners feelings on the matter.
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:07 pm

Arcticcircle wrote:Here kitty kitty.... drop it... drop it... good kitty.

Lemur, the small, vocal group of defenders are of course entitled to their opinions... anyone is. And believe me, anyone who has taken a look-see at this thread has heard it loud and clear. The message has gotten through. But it's just getting to the point where I can't even find a thread that gets any momentum with an idea exchange, because a core group of pro-lotto folks keep interrupting the flow. I get it, some people love the lotto. Cool. It's your year. Can the rest of us just talk about it and make suggestions without being constantly interrupted by the same 5 people saying that they love the lotto? It's like being at a party where someone is monopolizing the proverbial talking stick and stunting what could be a more fruitful and organic conversation, perhaps producing better ideas that would ultimately serve us all.


what makes you think people who point out the logistical challenges (and who post maybe missed or ignored info from the LLC) of some of the proposed solutions to the lottery/scarcity issue support the lottery? or actually are pro lottery/like it in any way ?

just because one may be able to find fault with a proposal solution doesnt mean one automatically supports the lottery.. or wants special favor from the LLC or is towing the campany line

i dont see pointing out the logistical challenges of some of the solutions that people suggest as a defense of the lottery system

I dont think that suggesting that people hold tight and wait and see the results of the main sale before declaring it a failure is a defense of the lottery system either..


im not sure what you mean about the momentum of an idea exchange being halted by people posting stuff that disagrees with others....... what kind of idea exchange excludes those of different opinions and viewpoints/perspectives ?

A lot of threads and comments are full of pie in the sky stuff that isnt logistically feasible, even some posts full of factual inaccuracies ...you dont promote disinformation (or misinformation/misunderstanding) being freely spread in our community do you?

Im not sure that i can see the open discourse that we enjoy on eplaya as an 'interruption' ...if all youre looking for is discourse between likeminded people youre about as likely to be able to enforce and create that environment here as you are to create one free of dance music at the burn itself.. radical self expression is a two way street.. and sometimes you have to take some of the bad with the good..

i dont really think the solution to fix the perceived problem you see as a small core group monopolizing the discussion can be resolved by instituting an imposed monopoly where only likeminded people can participate... in essence, creating an echo chamber...

our community has largely embraced radical inclusion and radical self expression..

the suggestion that limiting the conversation to like-minded opinions may result in a more fruitful and organic conversation seems quite conflicted to me..

how can a conversation that doesnt consider opposing views (or new/different information) be more fruitful and produce so-called better ideas ?

Also.. I would add that this is mainly a discussion board.. while there may be some involvement by a few in the decision making parts of the LLC, and there have been a few ideas from the forums that have been pushed up the chain.. this isnt a place to solve problems or offer solutions.. it is a place to discuss stuff.. the LLC might look at things here to guage community opinion.. but they surely arent looking here to find out how they should run their business

burning man is not a democracy and eplaya is not a proving ground for future solutions to run the business of burning man.. clearly the fact that they continued with their Lottery program against VOCAL opposition on eplaya is enough evidence of this..

we discuss things here.. we talk, find out about other peoples activities, opinions and ideas.. limiting the discussion to like-minded folks only would only stifle the discussions that do take place here.. ending up with a bunch of "ME TOO!!" "I AGREE!!" posts really isnt so appealing..
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby Stickygreen » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:11 pm

Wholly Fuck, a thread on eplaya that actually has logical and polite discussion!

WOW, i never thought i'd see the day...
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby Elliot » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:17 pm

Awwwww.... I was hoping for more flaming flying flapjacks.
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:25 pm

Elliot wrote:Awwwww.... I was hoping for more flaming flying flapjacks.


ask and ye shall receive!!!

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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:27 pm

And, once again, I'm back in love with lemur...
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:29 pm

Of course, if I had that much faith in LH, I'd actually like the theme...
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby Saguache » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:40 pm

ygmir wrote:Image


Oh puppies!
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby piehole » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:08 pm

Those pancakes need to be in my mouth
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:28 pm

if you think they look good sitting there.. just imagine how good they are when they are inside of your mouth
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby piehole » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:33 pm

Are you.... are you coming on to me?
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:35 pm

piehole wrote:Are you.... are you coming on to me?



well you havnt got me QUITE that excited just yet!
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby piehole » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:42 pm

You gonna eat those pancakes or what
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby 5280MeV » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:32 pm

Arcticcircle wrote:The defenders of the lotto post so often and vigorously, if you perusing the boards and not paying attention you'd almost think that the proponents and opponents of the new system are about evenly split. Until you realize that there are, like, 5 defenders who comprise the majority of the posts. I don't get it. Do you think if you get the BORG's back at every turn that Larry Harvey himself will fly through your living room window upon a flaming winged jackrabbit and give you the golden key to BRC? Kidding kidding. Kind of.


I think that the lottery *IS* the old system. Leaving aside the delay in ticket fulfillment, there is no functional difference for the buyer between a first-come-first serve system where everyone arrives at the same time. Either way who is awarded a ticket is governed by random chance.

The difference in the buyer's emotional response is like the the difference in driving and flying.

When driving on the interstate, I feel in control because I hold the wheel, and my foot is on the pedal. But there is absolutely nothing I can do if some drunken asshole decides to jump the median and slams through my windshield. The human response time is not fast enough for me to do anything. My life is not really in my own hands - but I feel like it is.

When flying, it is made completely clear to me that I am not in control, and that there is nothing to do to improve my chances of survival. So even though flying is the most absurdly safe form of travel imaginable, I still sometimes get irrationally nervous. Because here my life is not really in my own hands - and I know it.

I think that the same is true with tickets. In the everybody-mob-the-server-at-once system, someone might feel like they have control - but they don't. With the random distribution, the person knows that they are not in control.

The random distribution just smooths out the process a little, allows for some removal of obvious profiteering and cheating, and gives equal opportunity to people who might have to be driving fire trucks or something else other than staring at the ticket web site at 12:00 PST. It doesn't fix the real issue - nor was that the purpose of it.

The real issue:

I think that there are simply less tickets than people who realistically want to go, have their shit together by January, and have as much as a right as anyone else to have a shot at going. Or maybe not, but it is close, and in a few years it may be more.

So there is no solution. There is no 'fair' way to do it. Unless you really want to rank everyone by the value of their prior contributions, or make virgins write down applications and decide which ones appear to be the most desirable - make it an exclusive club.

Camps will have to adapt - adopt a more rhizomic structure where there is no single core person that must be there. Perhaps the architecture must become more decentralized, modular, and adaptable to whatever resources actually make it to the playa.

If 50 camp mates each pledge to bring 50 watts of solar, and 40 campers get a ticket, then the camp has up to 2 kW of power, depending on how they devise a grid. Basic Monkey huts can be chained together to make larger shade structures. And so on...

If these "real burners" are really creative, self-reliant people, then they will plan some really kick ass events and vacations for themselves on the orphan years, or possibly focus effort on local regional burns, or explore events in different parts of the US, or even other countries.

Arcticcircle wrote: I don't get it. Do you think if you get the BORG's back at every turn that Larry Harvey himself will fly through your living room window upon a flaming winged jackrabbit and give you the golden key to BRC?


I don't think that you need to have the BMorg's back. I think that there is a golden key, and that it will be handed out, it just is not necessarily to BRC specifically.

As a relative newcomer, I don't really want to repeat the same thing everyone has been doing for the last five or six years or so - I want to see what comes next. I am excited about what adventure, challenges, and creative solutions that the future may bring. Maybe it will be at BRC, maybe somewhere else.
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby A Jester » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:53 am

Arcticcircle wrote:Here kitty kitty.... drop it... drop it... good kitty.

Lemur, the small, vocal group of defenders are of course entitled to their opinions... anyone is. And believe me, anyone who has taken a look-see at this thread has heard it loud and clear. The message has gotten through. But it's just getting to the point where I can't even find a thread that gets any momentum with an idea exchange, because a core group of pro-lotto folks keep interrupting the flow. I get it, some people love the lotto. Cool. It's your year. Can the rest of us just talk about it and make suggestions without being constantly interrupted by the same 5 people saying that they love the lotto? It's like being at a party where someone is monopolizing the proverbial talking stick and stunting what could be a more fruitful and organic conversation, perhaps producing better ideas that would ultimately serve us all.

I'm really frustrated by the recent choices of the BORG, but ultimately I really love you guys, I appreciate passionate people and I think the pro-lottos just love BM and want to give the BORG some support. I just think that some of the eplaya activity has been pretty heavy-handed on the pro-lotto side, and gives a distorted view of your average burners feelings on the matter.



I'm not here to support the Org. I'm here to spread logical thought and hopefully help my community by opposing the spread of disinformation. I also am not great at sitting there and watching people re-hash the same four ideas as if they were brand new and had never been considered.

If you want to have a thread where people don't point out the problems with the proposed solutions, make one. You can call it "Ticketing Brainstorming - please no criticism".

You may be a little disappointed by the turn out, because I am guessing that most of the people who post "new" ideas that we've all heard before don't use the search function. For my part, I'll certainly point every single one of them your way, and I promise not to go in there and incite a riot.
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby kayalovelife » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:06 am

Wait...so today is January 29th...Burning Man starts in HOW many days?
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby AntiM » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:48 am

I hate the lottery. I hated FCFS. I wouldn't know Larry Harvey if he, or his flaming jackrabbit, bit me on the ass.

But I agree with Jester and MeV, there aren't enough tickets, so any system will result in unhappiness for some burners, either potential or veteran. And that eplaya sees a huge share of first time posters who feel the need to create new threads when there are perfectly useful on topic threads in existence, or their questions have been answered. It is a small forum, it is not that difficult to do a bit of reading and get the feel for what's what. But no, people don't work that way, so "the regulars" try to make sense of things. Moderators get the brunt of this, as they (not me directly anymore) are charged with keeping the cat herd on track, and with being a source of information (as it is handed down to them). It gets frustrating to see the same old same old when rational replies have been made repeatedly. So the snark fountain turns on.

Given the past history of eplaya interactions, this is remarkably civil.
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby Rice » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:20 am

kayalovelife wrote:Wait...so today is January 29th...Burning Man starts in HOW many days?


http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=How+many+days+ ... in+2012%3F

Really, it is not that hard...
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby 5280MeV » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:28 am

stretch80 wrote:
kayalovelife wrote:Wait...so today is January 29th...Burning Man starts in HOW many days?


http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=How+many+days+ ... in+2012%3F

Really, it is not that hard...


Actually it is kind of a pain. You have to check if this year's burn has already passed, and then compare the current time to the appropriate burn. Here is my hack at it in PHP:

Code: Select all
      $nextyear =  date('Y')+1;
      $burnstring = date('Y') . '-9-1 21:30:00 PDT';
      $burntime = DateTime::createFromFormat('Y-m-d H:i:s T',$burnstring);
      if ( $burntime->getTimestamp()  <= time() )
      {
        $burnstring = $nextyear . '-9-1 21:30:00 PDT';
        $burntime = DateTime::createFromFormat('Y-m-d H:i:s T',$burnstring);
      }
      $burndays = floor( ($burntime->getTimestamp() - time() ) / 86400 );
      if ( $burndays > 1 ) { echo "There are $burndays days left until the man burns."; }
      if ( $burndays == 1 ) { echo "There is one day left until the man burns."; }
      if ( $burndays == 0 ) { echo "Today the man burns."; }


I don't think it is quite right as it just counts a day as 24 hours. Really, one should not say 'today the man burns' until either 12:00 am or sunrise when the burn will occur within 24 hours - in the appropriate timezone for whoever is asking. This is hard as IP geolocation is inaccurate.

I am actually kind of curious if http://www.burningman.org gets this any more right than me.
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby BlackRockCityPimp » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:54 am

I support the lottery still.. so I guess I am one of the 5 supporters you are calling out to.

Why you ask?

Well all BS aside I like new things, I think its a neato idea to try to curb scalpers and make ticket distribution more fair. The only thing I disagree with is the date they chose. I think they shoulda waited till after tax time since most burners I know use their returns for their tix.

Everyone in my household went for two tix for a coupla reasons. Mainly so any that lost lottery could still have a ticket and any leftovers we may have can goto art projects or themecamp builders that didnt make the drawing. We also plan on gifting a ticket or two as we do every year for the past 5 years.

Maybe if we get really lucky in the drawing we will have a gift ticket lottery if the mods approve. It would have to be youtube documented so people dont accuse us of showing favoritism with the recipient of the gift ticket
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:40 pm

what the OP is insinuating is entirely true.

It is a vast Conspiracy, and we are but paid shills, working for the Man.

every thread i disrupt earns me points towards my own private porta pottie, and i'll be damned if i have to share the shitters with the great unwashed again this year.

they also promised me a hoverbike, and i'm a sucker for hoverbikes.

BTW, the BMorg has alien technology, and they're not afraid to use it, so if i were you, i'd just shut the fuck up right now.

ps....... nazi's....remember? we're nazi's.....space nazi's......the worst kind.

i hope this answers all of your questions.
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Re: Hey to all five lotto defenders... why?

Postby The CO » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:43 pm

5280MeV wrote:The real issue:

I think that there are simply less tickets than people who realistically want to go



So many people don't understand that concept.....

It's not a matter of fairness, conspiracy, money grab, it's BASIC FUCKIN MATH!
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