Locking/Deleting Personal Attack Based Topics?

Discuss the policies of ePlaya here.

Postby HughMungus » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:43 pm

Observer wrote:
HughMungus wrote:
Dustbuddy wrote:In other words, it ain't broke, so let's fix it.


No. More like, let's fix it before it tears itself apart.


Except, Hugh, you've provided no evidence whatsoever that the current ePlaya is moving in that direction. Quite the contrary, if anything the mood has been getting calmer over the last year or two, even in the absence of any clearly identifiable scapegoat for people to take out their aggressions on. The subscribers don't seem to feel as much of a need to scream as they have been known to, in forums that haven't been moderated with as light a touch. This would suggest that what is being done right now is working.

On the other hand, "let's moderate in order to enforce civility" is something that, while it may sound promising, opens the door to abuse both by the modstaff, should they cease to be impartial, and by the kind of online mob that the Internet is all too good at gathering. It is not difficult to find cases in which a lone, unpopular poster (ie. a scapegoat) was ganged up on en masse, abused in the coarsest of terms, and then banned for his incivility when he voiced a mild objection to what was going on. Civility and provocation are things that can only be judged subjectively, and by dangling out the promise of being able to silence one's opposition by trumping up a charge which will be evaluated on such subjective grounds, one encourages the attempt.

You're defending a proposed change in policy on what would appear to be a claim of good intentions, but where history clearly suggests that the results are going to be perverse, those intentions will count for very little, assuming that they even are sincere ones. Forums where the masses can go cry to the moderators whenever they don't like what they're reading have not, historically, been civil places, and why would they be? In the end, the floor of discussion ends up under the control of whichever faction can scream the most loudly, and the free-floating rage that fuels much of the process is only enhanced by the anger many will feel when they discover that a hash has been made of their freedom of speech, formerly reasonable people gradually becoming ill-tempered as they become accustomed to the absence of justice. Hence the popularity of the cliche "tools, not rules".

Note the presence of the "ignore" function. Anything keeping you from using it?


I do use the ignore function. I have one person on ignore because I couldn't stand their snipey attacks on people. That poster is one reason I'm asking.

I do have examples of a recent rash of personal attacks. I'd point them out but spec kept saying not to post specific examples here.

Regarding civility and subjectivity, I'm referring to people being uncivil to each other vs. being uncivil to each other's ideas. The personal attacks I referred to a second ago are obviously nothing more than insults. Like I said earlier, attack my posts, ideas, opinions, whatever, all you want but when you attack someone personally, you've crossed a line. Not only that but one personal attack leads to another and then what good is a thread full of "fuck you".

Regarding a proposed change of policy, it wouldn't be. It would be an enforcement of the existing TOS. What we have now is instead of someone replying to a personal attack with another personal attack, they are largely ignored by the target. That's seemed to work pretty well so far but lately I've seen more and more personal attack comments (particularly from a few people who obviously haven't been here very long) so I wanted to bring it up so that those who obviously didn't read the TOS could be asked to do so so that we don't have bigger problems in the future when people realize that personal attacks are OK and THEN we have a bigger problem that DOES have to be over-moderated.
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Postby spectabillis » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:14 pm

I'd point them out but spec kept saying not to post specific examples here.
there is a good reason for that, people keep dragging personal stuff into policy discussions just to pull punches. in fact, it used to be one of the biggest areas of conflict and screwed it up for everyone who wanted to discuss important matters of community.

it helps if you can find an example that you are not involved in personally (or someone you know) and try to do it as objectively as you can. unfortunately thats not easy, and you have to thank the people who pull that crap for fucking it up for everyone else.
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Postby HughMungus » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:18 pm

spectabillis wrote:
I'd point them out but spec kept saying not to post specific examples here.
there is a good reason for that, people keep dragging personal stuff into policy discussions just to pull punches. in fact, it used to be one of the biggest areas of conflict and screwed it up for everyone who wanted to discuss important matters of community.

it helps if you can find an example that you are not involved in personally (or someone you know) and try to do it as objectively as you can. unfortunately thats not easy, and you have to thank the people who pull that crap for fucking it up for everyone else.


I have a few I could point out but I thought you didn't want any specific examples in order to keep this thread from becoming a debate between any two people.
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Postby DVD Burner » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:24 pm

HughMungus wrote:Regarding civility and subjectivity, I'm referring to people being uncivil to each other vs. being uncivil to each other's ideas. The personal attacks I referred to a second ago are obviously nothing more than insults. Like I said earlier, attack my posts, ideas, opinions, whatever, all you want but when you attack someone personally, you've crossed a line. Not only that but one personal attack leads to another and then what good is a thread full of "fuck you".


That's already happened on eplaya and eplaya has turned out fine in the long run. I like you Hugh have no problems with anyone attacking my points of view nor my ideas nor me personally. (Lord....Uuuuhh, eplayans knows I can survive what many dish out.)
The problem is when folks cannot take what they dish out, which is why most that used to do the personal attcking on eplaya are gone now. They could not take what they were dishing out.

I see eplaya like the playa in this way, it's about survival. This current community is smart enough to survive here and anywhere on the playa under any circumstance.

i understand you point about a thread of "fuck you's" but under this current community like I said earlier, it's really moot.

Now as far as :
DVD Burner wrote:
... maybe it would help out the HughMungus if spec posted an example of what would constitute ...
spec wrote:already have, please read the beginning of the topic.


Not the best example in the world especially since there are much better examples............


now this thread was a great example of how things can be dealt with by using humor. :lol:
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Postby Kinetic IV » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:29 pm

Hugh, if SB will permit a few examples to be used so you can illustrate your point, if you have something in mind that I posted or was involved in you have my permission to use it.
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Postby HughMungus » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:31 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
HughMungus wrote:Regarding civility and subjectivity, I'm referring to people being uncivil to each other vs. being uncivil to each other's ideas. The personal attacks I referred to a second ago are obviously nothing more than insults. Like I said earlier, attack my posts, ideas, opinions, whatever, all you want but when you attack someone personally, you've crossed a line. Not only that but one personal attack leads to another and then what good is a thread full of "fuck you".


That's already happened on eplaya and eplaya has turned out fine in the long run. I like you Hugh have no problems with anyone attacking my points of view nor my ideas nor me personally. (Lord....Uuuuhh, eplayans knows I can survive what many dish out.)
The problem is when folks cannot take what they dish out, which is why most that used to do the personal attcking on eplaya are gone now. They could not take what they were dishing out.

I see eplaya like the playa in this way, it's about survival. This current community is smart enough to survive here and anywhere on the playa under any circumstance.

i understand you point about a thread of "fuck you's" but under this current community like I said earlier, it's really moot.


Just to be clear in reference to what you said, I have no problem with someone attacking my posts, ideas, opinions, whatever. In fact, I don't have much of a problem with people doing it to me, personally. I just noticed that there were a few personal attacks by a few of the newer members and thought maybe a mod should say something before it became a bigger problem (e.g., new people aren't told what's what, everybody thinks it's OK, it happens more and more, people who were turning the other cheek get tired of turning the other cheek, threads devolve into "fuck you", "no, fuck you", people leave because message board is useless, admins/moderators over-react by forcing people to be overly nice, repeat). So really I'm trying to prevent a problem since right now there isn't much of one, I'm just starting to see it more and more lately.
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Postby spectabillis » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:40 pm

that could be, and its something that i or the other moderators could have overlooked. we are still behind in some ways - bringing on AntiM will help but it takes time for people to watch and learn before they jump into it.

but i have to tell you, reading over Observer's post here was right on the mark with some important things.
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Postby HughMungus » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:49 pm

spectabillis wrote:that could be, and its something that i or the other moderators could have overlooked. we are still behind in some ways - bringing on AntiM will help but it takes time for people to watch and learn before they jump into it.

but i have to tell you, reading over Observer's post here was right on the mark with some important things.


So what's ths solution?
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Postby Observer » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:47 pm

HughMungus wrote:
spectabillis wrote:that could be, and its something that i or the other moderators could have overlooked. we are still behind in some ways - bringing on AntiM will help but it takes time for people to watch and learn before they jump into it.

but i have to tell you, reading over Observer's post here was right on the mark with some important things.


So what's ths solution?


This non-moderator's point of view, for what it's worth:

Appreciate what you have, including the progress that has already occured. Sure, there is flammage on the new ePlaya, but there's a lot less of it than there was on the old ePlaya. For that matter, if you look back through the archives for the new ePlaya, I think that you'll find that this place, as it is today, is more peaceful still than its older self of a few years back. In this regard, at the very least, ePlaya has been moving in the right direction, and that's just good news all around.

It's good news because it means that good people are going to be less afraid to post here, and they're going to be likelier to be the people doing the reading. This translates both into more and better material to read, and to another piece of the puzzle, in regard to answering your question. Part of the answer is that you should be ready to give people a little credit. Now that things have calmed down a little and there's less power politicing in the picture, the individual lurker is more likely to be left to his own devices when deciding what to believe, not so likely to be swept away by the passions of a mob, especially because the kind of person who is likely to be reading your posts today is a lot less likely to be the kind of person who thinks highly of tounge wagging..

If somebody is truly responding to you unreasonably, do you suppose that you are the only person alive capable of seeing this on his own? If he doesn't get backup, in the eyes of most people the troll will just be making an ass of himself, hurting himself politically a lot more than he's hurting you. But if you're still troubled by the thought of what somebody might be writing, I'll toss out one possibility for you to consider.

Read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. It's a deeply flawed work, but still one that gives one much to think about, even 2000 years after it was written, and many find a lot of peace of mind in its pages. It won't answer all of your questions and concerns - no book should ever be seen as doing that - but it does a great job of getting you to start asking your own. I think that after a while, you'll find that some things don't seem as important as they used to.
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Postby Captain Fuckwit » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:00 am

Call your mother and tell her that Captain Fuckwit called you stupid on the Internet.

Sincerely yours,
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:03 am

just stop it already cf. you know i have told you about that kind of personal stuff in policy discussions, and referring to others as childish while reacting the same way yourself when you dont get what you want, does not look good either.
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Postby Ivy » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:51 am

For that matter, if you look back through the archives for the new ePlaya, I think that you'll find that this place, as it is today, is more peaceful still than its older self of a few years back.


You think so? I disagree. I think the signal-to-noise ratio is worse than ever. The personal attacks in sig lines alone outweigh most of the stuff from the old incarnation of the board.

I'd suggest checking the old eplaya archives as well, but they mysteriously disappeared a year or so ago and it's "not on the priority list" to bring them back. Lamentable, as there was a lot of great information there.
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:01 pm

the noise is loud, and not very interesting. bringing up the old board is on the list, but low priority. anything other than top is pretty much set aside until needed resources are added.
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Postby DVD Burner » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:14 am

Poan wrote:Shakira is having sex!
http://



HEY EVERYONE.

DONT CLICK ON THIS LINK.

IT IS A VIRUS.


edited to remove link. Thanks for the warning, but it is unhelpful to repost the infected link.
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:54 am

and wrong topic, again.
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Postby DVD Burner » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:24 pm

Yeah but it was the only topic that I could post in last night.

I hope you at least got rid of that thread?

And dont you think that I would have put it in case studies or just pass it on to Emilly if I could?

Never mind dont answer since you obviously...................


Hey I gave everyone a heads up.
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:38 pm

ok, got it.
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Postby emily sparkle » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:43 am

why are you unable to post in the case studies thread?
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Postby DVD Burner » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:41 am

i can now. I redid my laptop.

it was infected from that link.

The virus would not let me post anywhere but in this thread.
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Postby AntiM » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:35 pm

Another thread which could use a bump for the lessons learned. Some posts are very good, others, not so much.
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:27 am

uhh.. i dont see many lessons learned here either. what are they?

lessons i see is how it became a magnet for the worst people that caused attacks and conflicts, that its impossible to have similar discussions without people making it personal as long as they are around, and there isnt a single moderator left who can pull it off anymore.
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Postby Kinetik V » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:01 am

Not that it matters but here's my thoughts. Don't forget to scroll right past them like most do.

1: Anti M is the defacto mod for the eplaya. She's the one we see day in, day out. She won't hesistate to tell you when you've overstepped, she moves and locks threads, and in short does more daily than we saw in years in the past.

2: She is a strong moderator, one that is perfectly capable of putting anyone and everyone in check. And since I literally just learned Bay Bridge Sue is a mod...well I know she's got great backup. Really who wants to mess with Bay Bridge Sue? Not I, and nobody else should either unless they're a fool.

3: Am I really saying this? Yes I am. Would you please find out what the formal process is to become an eplaya moderator and throw your hat back in the ring so to speak? In short I'm respectfully asking for you to quit bitching about the changes this place needs and go get yourself in a position where you can make those changes. It's time. You'll be in with some strong people who will accept many of your ideas, balance out a few of the ones that have me thinking "oh shit he's off the rails on this one", and you'll add another voice to those who are trying to get BM's senior staff to lavish some time and attention on the board.

Again...it's time to right a wrong...get back under the green and become a moderator again. It's obvious you want to be one. So go do it!
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:20 am

i really-really-really have no interest in being a moderator again.


its so disgusting, its so sad now... almost painful to see all that community work and procedures that we had to work out with everyone the hard way, and see it getting trashed now. im still trying in my own way, but its bad because the org leadership (yeah right) has ignored this place to the point where they are starting to treat it however they want, if they even fucking bother anymore. worse, its just one person because the rest of the org literally has no fucking idea what is up with them or this place.

i mean its not just me that should be pissed - all that fighting with us and the org, all that fighting among yourselves just to create this somewhat special environment? all thats getting thrown out now, intentionally, because theres not many volunteers around anymore willing to stand up to them on your behalf. org management really doesnt care about you or volunteers much beyond getting things done the way they want.

even as critical i became of this place, i couldnt imagine things happening like this.
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Postby Kinetik V » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:25 am

SB, it's never too late to effect change.

And if you weren't interested in being a mod you wouldn't give a damn what happened to this place.
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Re: Locking/Deleting Personal Attack Based Topics?

Postby Mojojita » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:18 pm

I just want to vent a little regarding the Gate v. Greeters thread. Most may not realize that there was a very real and very painful series of events at TTID this year that makes this thread really open up some very bad wounds that I wish had been left to heal. I have just avoided it hoping it would just go away but it seems to be getting worse rather than better. It is not just in bad taste considering the violent destruction that happened but it perpetuates the crap. Please consider taking this down.
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Re: Locking/Deleting Personal Attack Based Topics?

Postby Savannah » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:34 pm

I'm not familiar with the specific background you're referring to, but it is a divisive thread, in my opinion.

I don't know if divisive (etc) is sufficient to qualify for locking or deleting it, because heavy-handed moderation doesn't tend to go over very well, here.
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Re: Locking/Deleting Personal Attack Based Topics?

Postby Mojojita » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:49 pm

I know - it just hurts my heart to see it here. I suppose I should just keep sucking it up as I really don't think airing dirty laundry regarding the bad behavior will help anything either, and was handled by people far above my pay grade.
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Re: Locking/Deleting Personal Attack Based Topics?

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:50 pm

I'm sorry. It was meant as a light-hearted thing. You can take it down. There are certainly some rangers v. esd things that I don't talk about. I wasn't thinking, I guess.
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Re: Locking/Deleting Personal Attack Based Topics?

Postby Mojojita » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:53 pm

No worries, Fishy. You couldn't have known that there was recent mayhem.
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Re: Locking/Deleting Personal Attack Based Topics?

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:01 pm

WEll, as t he originator of that thread, I wanted to express my willingness to have it come down, and I do know enough not to put Rangers v DPW crap up...
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