Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

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Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby monsta2ownzu » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:23 pm

So It will be my second burn this year. A buddy and I have organized a nice little camp of ten and are in the beginning stages of planning our camp. We were planning on using burlap as shade cloth for a pretty bitchin (if you ask me) center shade structure. I did a bit of searching on here and have only found one thing pertaining to burlap and it basically says "Caution, very flammable." Seeing as I'd like to watch the man burn, not my camp, does anyone have suggestions of fireproofing the burlap? Has anyone done this before? How has it worked? I saw a lot of burlap on the playa last year so theres gotta be someone out there!! I've read suggestions for using aluminet instead but it's almost five time as expensive as buying rolls of raw burlap and thats just not possible for our camp.

Any help is very much appreciated!
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:46 pm

Burlap is going to be very heavy indeed, too.
Actually, I'm not sure that burlap is going to be any less or mor flammable than any other material that's commonly used for shades and tents. The problem is that whatever the material is, it has a high ratio of surface to mass, and that's typically a bad mix. (This is why grain elevators explode.) You're possibly better off making sure you have no open flame in camp, which with a kitchen and your campmates' smoking might not be feasible either.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby Elliot » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:54 pm

There are chemicals that can be applied to fabrics for this purpose. I have no experience (nor connection), but one brand is No-Burn.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby lemur » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:23 pm

i suggest making a structure out of old brushed rayon sweaters..

if your goal is fireproof.. that would fit the bill
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby motskyroonmatick » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:30 pm

Look in to knit shade cloth. It may be slightly more expensive but is more durable than burlap in my experience. Nursery supply places will manufacture custom shade cloth or have someone they contract through to make it. Google can tell you about opportunities on the internet to get custom shade cloth made. Bids are free. Nothing to loose.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby monsta2ownzu » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:28 pm

Thanks so much for the input you guys.

The shade cloth has been mentioned a few times, however with burlap at about $1.10 per square [b]yard[/b] and shade cloth at $0.60-.70 a square [b]foot[/b] even with increased fuel cost for the weight and the cost of fire retardant solution it comes out to substantially less. I'm pretty crafty with a sewing machine as well so I plan on tapering and putting grommets in around the edges and reinforcing the high tension areas.

As for the the Rayon, sounds fun but I can't tell if ur joking or not cuz Rayon is flammable too.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby trilobyte » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:48 pm

Just about anything will burn if you give it enough of an opportunity. Of course, most stuff is a lot harder to get going. Burlap, in my opinion, seems like the kind of material that's just waiting for the chance to be on fire. There might be a reason why, in a city filled with cheap DIY solutions to problems like shade, burlap isn't used.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby trilobyte » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Oops - forgot to add a couple other crucial considerations. First, burlap quality can vary quite a bit - from stuff that provides little in the way of shade to the heavy stuff that shades the sun (but not the UV radiation, as I understand)… but almost all of it is MOOPy. And second, should it rain (and it does sometimes do that), it would be a big wet disaster (no rain protection, soaking up moisture, and smelling like a wet dog).
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby Elliot » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:16 pm

Don't terrorists make bombs out of old rayon shirts? :shock:

A few years ago I bought a 40 x 60 farmers hay tarp for 300,-. Black on one side, white on the other, rope-reinforced edges with grommets, very strong. That has to be a bargain.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby monsta2ownzu » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:17 pm

I saw a bunch of burlap last year, its the reason we decided to look into its use in the first place. Mostly potato sacks sewn together.

As to whether it rains, the shade cloth mentioned before would not provide protection from the rain either, no woven material would. We have a monkey hut for our stuff and our tents that will be out rain protection. Do you not think a single layer of 7 oz mesh would dry pretty quickly after the rain ends?
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby trilobyte » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:35 pm

The good news is that while it was raining, the stuff would be less of a fire risk. However, unlike most other shade material it absorbs the moisture and would likely at least triple in weight. If the structure survives (and doesn't collapse), and the weather goes back to being nice and dry (it doesn't always do that), it may dry out in a while. As for the smell, I've never worked with whatever heavy gauge MOOP free stuff you may be contemplating, just the normal messy stuff (which would be more trouble than it's worth for cleanup purposes) - it never seems to stop smelling funny after it's been wet. But hey, don't let me stop you - so long as your camp can clean up after itself I say knock yourself out (and take pictures).
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby Bob » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:38 pm

Pretty sure burlap used in construction and stage scenery is treated. Check with the supplier. Order a few yards and see if it meets your needs, sooner than later. How did you plan to hang it?

Poly shade cloths aren't 100% fireproof either, fwiw.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby monsta2ownzu » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:02 pm

The shade structure would be a center pole with a tailored circle of burlap with a 15ft radius and a 3 foot diameter hole at the top. A circular rib would hold the hole in the center of the main cloth. Were doing this so the weight of the fabric is evenly distributed and not concentrated on one point like it would be if we just propped the whole thing up with a center pole. The edges of the circle would also be held 5 ft off the ground with supports spaced evenly around its edge.

The weight issue is a good thing to consider. I'm ordering samples to check different kinds of burlap, their moopiness, and now, their weight when soaking wet.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:37 pm

monsta2ownzu wrote:...a 15ft radius and a 3 foot diameter hole...

It's not that I don't know what the difference between radius and diameter is. I do. But knowing that I kinda gotta wonder why use both in the same sentence.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby ygmir » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:24 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
monsta2ownzu wrote:...a 15ft radius and a 3 foot diameter hole...

It's not that I don't know what the difference between radius and diameter is. I do. But knowing that I kinda gotta wonder why use both in the same sentence.


geometry nazi...............
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:29 pm

ygmir wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
monsta2ownzu wrote:...a 15ft radius and a 3 foot diameter hole...

It's not that I don't know what the difference between radius and diameter is. I do. But knowing that I kinda gotta wonder why use both in the same sentence.


geometry nazi...............

Only if you twist the arms the wrong way.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby ygmir » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:30 pm

don't go all Xeno on me................
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby motskyroonmatick » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:36 am

Burlap seems to me more like a one time use material than most others. Potato sacks and Coffee been (one way trip)sacks. Not to mention the other multitudes of short time uses In flower dryers et all. From the dimensions it seems just buy a dreaded small parachute and experiment away.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby motskyroonmatick » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:50 am

You know when it comes down to it I'd be much more in favor of framed 12X12 +or- of panels of road fabric than burlap(secured in a responsible manner). Identify, Predict, Experiment, Predict, Experiment, Predict and Decide then Make it happen! Much MOOP on the playa is imposed on neighbors due to wind. I think burlap how ever minor or major lies in that realm. I'm glad you are seeking advice before deploying. Best of luck and you should have it with this time to prepare and the wealth of knowledge here. Go for it. What ever you want to pull off. It is destined to be more of a success than not.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby monsta2ownzu » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:03 pm

lol, I used radius and diameter because while I was typing I was looking at the sketch, and we have the larger circle marked with a radial line and the center concentric circle makred with its diameter cuz there was already a line running straight through it.

I did a quick readup on the road fabric. It says it's permeable but is it permeable to the point the wind can move through it? The parachute is definitely an option that remains on the table. My group just wanted something a little different. I'll def keep everybody posted as the different samples come in and we start doing some tests on um :-)

I feel like as long as i experiment, and make use of all the amazing people on these boards, I can't go wrong! Continued thanks and I hope to keep getting input!
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby Savannah » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:07 pm

Don't forget a fire extinguisher. :)
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby Bob » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:46 pm

No, road cloth isn't permeable to the wind. Functionally equivalent to sailcloth, except it's pretty dense to the sun's rays so it can cool the space and ground underneath as well as any tarp. I started DPW on using it in '98 because it was very cheap and we were mostly using it on-the-flat battened off to wood frame structures. I've jury-rigged it with grommets for small awnings on my own, but it's not something I usually recommend for general consumption because you can have a pretty spectacular failure if it's not rigged adequately and catches a gust of wind.

Haven't seen wide rolls of close-woven burlap outside of concrete supply yards. It's sometimes used to cover concrete & masonry work for curing.

The Cafe uses special-ordered poly shade tarps hemmed with reinforcing tape at the edges and grommets every 12 in. Nominal width of the tarps and the cable layout is 12 ft to take advantage of 12.5 ft wide fabric off the rolls. A tarp shop or greenhouse supplier can make up any size and shape tarp you want, though.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby monsta2ownzu » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:25 pm

Savannah wrote:Don't forget a fire extinguisher. :)


...or two
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby MyDearFriend » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:39 pm

monsta2ownzu wrote:
Savannah wrote:Don't forget a fire extinguisher. :)


...or two


Regardless of your choice of fabric, bring adequate extinguishers for your group, and keep them out where everyone can find them.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby monsta2ownzu » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:30 pm

MyDearFriend wrote:
monsta2ownzu wrote:
Savannah wrote:Don't forget a fire extinguisher. :)


...or two


Regardless of your choice of fabric, bring adequate extinguishers for your group, and keep them out where everyone can find them.



Absolutely!
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby gyre » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:55 am

It will quickly become 90% dust and fireproof.

Boric acid is one fireproofing treatment.
Many natural fabrics self extinguish, better than a melting synthetic.

Try places that replace theatrical curtains.
The used ones are cheap, but HEAVY.
They're fire resistant.

More of these than you think, with schools etc.


There is a heavy fabric more suitable than burlap, but I don't know the name.
Lighter than burlap, but would still absorb dust or water.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:49 am

This thread is null and void. All answers were based on shade structures. I not sure that anyone knows what a shade sturcture is, much less how to build one.



except Bob, of course.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby CornMan » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:56 am

theCryptofishist wrote:This thread is null and void. All answers were based on shade structures. I not sure that anyone knows what a shade sturcture is, much less how to build one.



except Bob, of course.


I believe I do indeed know how to make various shade structures. Getting the money to buy the materials is a different story altogether.

Back to the subject: Acid might be the answer to a shade structure that is likely to go up in flames. Figure out a few hours before the structure is likely to burn, take the acid, and enjoy.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:58 am

Zeke Chaparral wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:This thread is null and void. All answers were based on shade structures. I not sure that anyone knows what a shade sturcture is, much less how to build one.



except Bob, of course.


I believe I do indeed know how to make various shade structures. Getting the money to buy the materials is a different story altogether.

Back to the subject: Acid might be the answer to a shade structure that is likely to go up in flames. Figure out a few hours before the structure is likely to burn, take the acid, and enjoy.

Re-read and try again.
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Re: Fireproofing Shade Sturctures

Postby unjonharley » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:05 am

re fire proofing... Shoot all the asshats shooting off fire works
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