Scholarship tickets.

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Scholarship tickets.

Postby HiBbY » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:12 pm

HiBbY here :::) im doing a bit of reconasence work way early so i can try to apply for some scholarship tickets. I know of about 2 or three around the eplaya forum space, but would like to know as much as i can to maximize my options. XXD any help would be loveleh.

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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:53 pm

There may be people who won them in the past who have pertinent things to say, but they are not releasing details on purpose for this year, because they are trying to make sure that people don't game the system. So even if you know what happened in the past, there's no guarantee that it will work like that this year.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby trilobyte » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:55 pm

As the ticket details state, the program is being merged with another and something new is being created. Details will be made available after the Main Sale begins.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby gyre » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:29 am

The policy in the past was to give no information about what they were looking for, and no information as to why you were granted or not.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby Poipriestess » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:05 am

trilobyte wrote:As the ticket details state, the program is being merged with another and something new is being created. Details will be made available after the Main Sale begins.


yeah, the problem this this method is that one can not make an informed decision about if this process (low income/scholarship) is right for them. for example, as a 10 year BM vet, the idea that i'd have to write an essay or fill out an application to justify my worthiness for a ticket sort of blows. i live my life off playa as a burner 24/7/365 and i'm fiscally not well off. I do see the value in paying for a ticket as well, so i want to pay if i can afford it. the idea that i can't apply for a $240 ticket only (unless i read everything wrong) is really challenging and its even more challenging that I don't have any idea what the scholarship process is AND i'm not being told until after the $240 tickets are all gone. hope that makes sense. ...
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby BBadger » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:25 am

You can apply for just that $240 tier, but no doubt the pool of people trying for that tier is large. The scholarship system is the way it is so that it is only useful to people with a certain desperation level: those who can only go to BM through the scholarship program. Otherwise, people would treat it as just a means to buy a cheaper ticket: if they didn't get the scholarship, they'd just go and buy a ticket anyway. So the question is: are you in such a desperate situation that you can only go via the scholarship program, or is it not so desperate that buying a regular ticket still isn't prohibitive?
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby lemur » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:28 am

Poipriestess wrote:
the problem this this method is that one can not make an informed decision about if this process (low income/scholarship) is right for them. for example, as a 10 year BM vet, the idea that i'd have to write an essay or fill out an application to justify my worthiness for a ticket sort of blows. i live my life off playa as a burner 24/7/365 and i'm fiscally not well off. I do see the value in paying for a ticket as well, so i want to pay if i can afford it. the idea that i can't apply for a $240 ticket only (unless i read everything wrong) is really challenging and its even more challenging that I don't have any idea what the scholarship process is AND i'm not being told until after the $240 tickets are all gone. hope that makes sense. ...



an informed decision about the process? methinks you misunderstand the point of the program.

the low income/scholarship program isnt for people who can make an 'informed decision' about whether or not to go with a low income/scholarship application or go with the $240+ ticket. ideally the only people applying have only ONE option: low income ticket or nothing.

if you can make that decision the low income/scholarship program really isnt for you.. its not for people in the middle or on the border of financial need.. its for people on the furthest edge of financial need.

if you think "but if i knew more about the scholarship program i might not need to buy a $240 ticket" ...odds are you neednt apply.

the low income program isnt a fallback plan B thing... and id imagine any honest applicant of the program likely wouldnt be able to consider buying a $240 ticket plan B as they cant afford it.

needing to apply to get a low income ticket doesnt impune your burnier than thou-ness.. you shouldnt see it as a bummer but an awesome opportunity to let people of lesser means attend the event..


(yes you can apply for only a $240 tier ticket but youll have less chances of getting one if you only try to get one tier instead of more than one.)



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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby trilobyte » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:32 am

@Poipriestess - too bad. As in previous years, the low income program will not be announced until after the main sale (on-sale date in past years). Basically, if the idea of a $240 ticket is even remotely in your financial vocabulary, then the low income program isn't for you. It's intended for people who would otherwise just plain not be able to go (so it doesn't matter what the tiers or on sale dates would be).
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby gyre » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:21 am

The difference is that they didn't used to run out of low income tickets early.

The intent wasn't to leave people without any option to go.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby Dolbeau24 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:10 pm

I think what they are trying to say is that they cannot afford to pay for anything higher than a low-income ticket but are willing to go without something extremely important that is included in their monthly budget in order to pay for a more expensive ticket and be able to attend Burning Man 2012. That's a pretty reasonable question to ask...
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby trilobyte » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:53 pm

As in past years, you've got to make a choice. Details of the low income program will not be announced until after the main sale (or in past years, until after tickets had gone on sale and lowest tiers had sold out).
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby BBadger » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:26 pm

Dolbeau24 wrote:I think what they are trying to say is that they cannot afford to pay for anything higher than a low-income ticket but are willing to go without something extremely important that is included in their monthly budget in order to pay for a more expensive ticket and be able to attend Burning Man 2012. That's a pretty reasonable question to ask...


Wouldn't that imply that their situation is not actually desperate enough that a low-income ticket is applicable? The whole point of the low-income/scholarship tickets is that the tickets are the one-and-only-way some people can attend, not just another option to shave off some extra money from an otherwise expensive vacation.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby Dolbeau24 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:33 pm

Not really... I'm talking about things that are necessary to survive. I would be willing to not eat more then a few times every week for a month or so in order to save that extra 80 bucks in order to go. If you don't think that's desperate then shame on you
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby BBadger » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:45 pm

Shame on me what? Yours is a case of radical delusion. There are absolutely zero situations in which going to Burning Man at all can be considered "desperate". The choice to forego ones health to attend some art festival in the desert is at best a choice in sacrifice, but more an exercise in financial stupidity.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby Dolbeau24 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:52 pm

trilobyte wrote:@Poipriestess - too bad. As in previous years, the low income program will not be announced until after the main sale (on-sale date in past years). Basically, if the idea of a $240 ticket is even remotely in your financial vocabulary, then the low income program isn't for you. It's intended for people who would otherwise just plain not be able to go (so it doesn't matter what the tiers or on sale dates would be).


That's a pretty ignorant thing to say. I know plenty of people who a $240 ticket, including myself, isn't by any means in our financial vocabulary but at the same time those people are willing to go to extreme measures in order to come up with the extra cash in order to go. For some people Burning Man is all they have, so what's giving up the little they have in the real world in order to go to the one place where they can feel, for at least a week, that they have something? Are you saying that everyone who applies for the low-income ticket should be starving themselves in order to apply?
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby Dolbeau24 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:59 pm

BBadger wrote:Shame on me what? Yours is a case of radical delusion. There are absolutely zero situations in which going to Burning Man at all can be considered "desperate". The choice to forego ones health to attend some art festival in the desert is at best a choice in sacrifice, but more an exercise in financial stupidity.


You're right, desperate was the wrong word. So BBadger.... Where do you cross the line? Where does financially stupid stop and a $240 ticket stop being within reach? Since you're so smart please let me know. You just contradicted yourself from your first response so please enlighten me almighty one.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby BBadger » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:12 am

When your purchase is made using purely discretionary income.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby remi » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:29 am

trilobyte wrote:@Poipriestess - too bad. As in previous years, the low income program will not be announced until after the main sale (on-sale date in past years). Basically, if the idea of a $240 ticket is even remotely in your financial vocabulary, then the low income program isn't for you. It's intended for people who would otherwise just plain not be able to go (so it doesn't matter what the tiers or on sale dates would be).



Again, I don't understand why people who can afford a 390$ ticket automatically get put into all three tiers, then they draw the 240$ tier first. I don't see any pro's of this process, and I see plenty of cons. Good thing I already have my ticket.. but I just think this new system doesn't help people who are financially challenged.

Oh well. Good luck Hibby!
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby trilobyte » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:04 am

@Dolbeau24 - if you're able to shuffle things around and make it happen, then it is within your financial vocabulary. The low income program is intended for those who don't have that luxury. Which is why, every year, the details of the program are not announced until after the lowest tier tickets are sold. That will not change for 2012.

@Remi - it's because people who check the higher tiers have the same opportunity to get a lower tier ticket as the next person. Just because you've scraped the money together (or have made room on your credit limit) for the highest tier doesn't necessarily mean you can easily afford it (some folks save for weeks or months, for others the difference between lowest tier and highest tier means skipping a few meals and cutting a lot of corners in their lives), those individuals should not be penalized (and given less of a chance to get a lower tier ticket) for being self reliant. It's actually remarkably similar to how tickets have been sold in every year since tiered pricing has been offered - the first people to get through may have had the option of choosing multiple tiers, but in the overwhelming majority of cases, ticket buyers chose to purchase the lowest available tier.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby BBadger » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:09 pm

remi wrote:Again, I don't understand why people who can afford a 390$ ticket automatically get put into all three tiers, then they draw the 240$ tier first. I don't see any pro's of this process, and I see plenty of cons. Good thing I already have my ticket.. but I just think this new system doesn't help people who are financially challenged.


Oh come on, really? That "choose the most expensive tier you can to save tickets for less fortunate burners" is a huge load of wash. How many people do you know, or have even heard of, that have ever taken a more expensive ticket, given the choice of a less-expensive ticket (not including presale)? I've experienced exactly one and that person rationalized taking only the second least-expensive tier.

It's not even worth coding that into the system. Why bother when the vast super-majority of people will <i>always</i> take the cheapest ticket, no matter what tier they can "actually" afford. Some people rationalize that they aren't rich and are entitled to it. Others, like me, are unapologetic about just wanting to save some money.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby moonrise » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:32 pm

They took my smokes!!!~

Good luck HiBby!! I know you'll qualify, but ya gotta scraaaape that doughsky together...the burn needs it's artists, all of them (I hope you bring some sculptures, that'd be cooooool)

Fingers crossed and stay Shpongled~




HiBbY wrote:HiBbY here :::) im doing a bit of reconasence work way early so i can try to apply for some scholarship tickets. I know of about 2 or three around the eplaya forum space, but would like to know as much as i can to maximize my options. XXD any help would be loveleh.

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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby oneeyeddick » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:02 pm

BBadger wrote:
Oh come on, really? That "choose the most expensive tier you can to save tickets for less fortunate burners" is a huge load of wash. How many people do you know, or have even heard of, that have ever taken a more expensive ticket, given the choice of a less-expensive ticket (not including presale)? I've experienced exactly one and that person rationalized taking only the second least-expensive tier.

Well, there are two that have done that before right here in this household, and i know of a couple others right here on this board(and in person) that have done it almost EVERY year themselves...hell, I know one guy here in town that buys them and then "gifts" them to those less fortunate than himself.

It's not even worth coding that into the system. Why bother when the vast super-majority of people will <i>always</i> take the cheapest ticket, no matter what tier they can "actually" afford. Some people rationalize that they aren't rich and are entitled to it. Others, like me, are unapologetic about just wanting to save some money.


and there are others who not only buy the ticket, but also make donations to BRAF, multiple kickstarter projects, as well as financially and logistically help artists arrive on playa too.

It's called Charity...ImAGiNE!!
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby moonrise » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:15 pm

Right on OED!
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby BBadger » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:04 am

oneeyeddick wrote:Well, there are two that have done that before right here in this household, and i know of a couple others right here on this board(and in person) that have done it almost EVERY year themselves...hell, I know one guy here in town that buys them and then "gifts" them to those less fortunate than himself.


Wow, in upwards of FOUR! You must be in the minority. Hell, maybe one of those two on the board is the one I saw.

and there are others who not only buy the ticket, but also make donations to BRAF, multiple kickstarter projects, as well as financially and logistically help artists arrive on playa too.

It's called Charity...ImAGiNE!!


Yes charity, and that's great! I have no problem with charity. However, I do have a problem with charity that is well intentioned, but wastefully and/or pointlessly implemented. That is why the whole "leave the lower priced tickets for less fortunate" is still a load of wash. It doesn't guarantee that the cheaper tickets are going to the right people, and has a very high-probability of not going to the right people for exactly the reasons I outlined above. It's like the well-intentioned, poor practice of giving money to "panhandlers" for their $50/hr hold-a-sign deception, rather than something useful like donating to a food bank or something. Wasted charity is like no charity at all.

A better form of charity? What that dude you described above does: buys them and then gifts them to people. Or maybe help subsidize other peoples' ticket costs especially if you were able to get a cheaper ticket. It's effectively what is supposed to happen with the "save the cheaper tickets for people" thing. Donations to BRAF, kickstarter, artists, etc. are also good because you know who it is going to, who needs it.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby oneeyeddick » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:55 am

Yes, that is true, but there is a twisted amount of satisfaction that happens on Playa when I step out of my camp and see some poor bastard sitting in the sun trying to boil ramen noodles with a homeade solar cooker and knowing that he probably had to buy the scholarship or first tier ticket...but yet he is fucking happy as sin that he is right there doing just that.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby remi » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:27 am

BBadger wrote:Oh come on, really? That "choose the most expensive tier you can to save tickets for less fortunate burners" is a huge load of wash. How many people do you know, or have even heard of, that have ever taken a more expensive ticket, given the choice of a less-expensive ticket (not including presale)? I've experienced exactly one and that person rationalized taking only the second least-expensive tier.



Last year when another festival's tickets went on sale, all three tiers became available at the same time, and 8 people purchased the most expensive tier before the first tier sold out. So, not many people, but some think of others before themselves. And why "not including presale"? I thought the purpose of having expensive presale tickets was to offset the price of the scholarship and low income tickets. Thats the only reason I purchased presale tickets. If because of my 2 presale tickets, one person gets to go to BM that wouldn't be able to otherwise, I feel like i've done my duty.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby Elliot » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:53 am

Seems to me, the tiered prices would have been invented to bring in cash flow early in the year, so the office would have money to operate. Clearly, there is no practical way to identify thousands of people who truly have tight finances, so the year-round cash flow issue must be the reason.

Then, when the first two tiers began selling out on the first day of sales, the whole tier system would have become obsolete and terminated.
I ask, where is my error in this logic?

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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby moonrise » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:02 pm

Yes, thankfully for those in need, nothing will change many people's mind about leaving the low income/scholarship tickets more available to those in actual need/to those they're supposed to go to (even if some don't seem to care).

During a recent discussion about the pottery system, we called out a "well off" guy and his wifey for stating they'd just buy low income/scholarship tickets, the room went quiet I'll promise you that, shame, shame. They changed their tune and decided to leave those tickets alone, and then proceded to say they could/would buy a ticket form one of the Native Americans, okay fine, at least they're leaving the low income/scholarship tickets alone. Many cannot travel to the Reservation now can they? Leave the shcolarship/low income tickets for the ones that need them. Stop hair splitting and guessing and do your part and maybe, just maybe more of those tickets will go to those in real need.

BRC ain't as big as one might think :roll:

ETA Honor based system Elliot. Excluding the tightwads.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby 5280MeV » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:03 pm

Elliot wrote:Then, when the first two tiers began selling out on the first day of sales, the whole tier system would have become obsolete and terminated.


I was thinking about this too, but maybe the lower tiers are still the only reason that people bother to buy tickets in January in the first place.

It is interesting that for all the lottery panic, there don't seem to be very many people that didn't get presales. Why didn't people come out in droves for an extra chance at getting a ticket?


Unrelated: If I get a $240 ticket, excess funds are going to expedite jerky operations setup. Oh yes, there will be jerky.
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Re: Scholarship tickets.

Postby trilobyte » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:49 pm

@Elliot - I'm sure that helping to encourage early sales may have been a factor (I have no idea how many early buyers they had in years prior, I only started participating in 2004), but I don't think it was the only reason for tiered pricing. There have been words on the ticket page to encourage people to purchase higher tier if they could afford them (so that more lower tier tickets would be available for people who couldn't afford them) from 2004-2011, it's just that the majority of ticket buyers, when they got through, simply purchased the lowest available tier even when higher tiers were available. While it seems a selfish thing to do, I suspect that many people justified the choice by rationalizing that it gave them more money to put towards gifting or the creation of art.
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