Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Want to talk about tickets? You've come to the right place

Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby taltenberg » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:47 pm

It seems to me that the number of vehicles is a bigger issue than the number of actual people. Therefore, what about this as another solution to the ticketing dilemma:

  • Make the argument to BLM that the number of vehicles is the main issue (ingress/egress issues, impact on the playa, carbon footprint, etc.), so that BRC should be allowed to grow beyond 50,000 citizens IF the number of vehicles is reduced.
  • Then offer 3 different kinds of tickets:
    • Person-only ticket: the holders of these tickets must be passengers in a vehicle.
    • Regular vehicle ticket: drivers of any vehicle under 20' in length (or whatever size/length we choose) must have this kind of ticket.
    • Large vehicle ticket: drivers of any vehicle 20' or longer in length (or whatever size/length we choose) must have this kind of ticket.
  • With this system, there could then be limits placed on each category of tickets, perhaps something like: 30,000 person-only, 15,000 regular vehicles and 15,000 large vehicles. This would allow 60,000 people but only 30,000 vehicles. (These numbers are random guesses, basically. I wonder of BM folks have data on numbers of vehicles in past years, along with total population. Assuming there is some such data, then numbers could be based on it.)
  • Such a system would encourage carpooling, and might even create a market for a shuttle system from Reno or Wadsworth or Gerlach. What if hundreds or thousands of people drove to Gerlach, then transferred their gear to shuttle buses (flatbed/bread trucks) and got shuttled in... People/groups (maybe the school) could make money providing parking and a shuttle service, and the playa and BRC would have fewer cars. (And of course, the further away the shuttles start (Reno, Sacramento...), the bigger the reduction of carbon footprint...) Perhaps the Exodus can include a "carpool" lane and/or a shuttle lane...
Just a few ideas toward making BRC more liveable, and allow it to grow... Thanks to John Govsky for this idea; he and I discussed it over coffee...
< > < > < > < > < >
Ted Altenberg
"My other hometown is Black Rock City"
User avatar
taltenberg
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:24 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby danibel » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:52 pm

+100
In dust we trust.
User avatar
danibel
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: Camp D'nile

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:29 pm

This has been thrashed out elsewhere. I think the upshot was that it wouldn't satisfy the BLM's requirements, but whatever the flaw was, it was fatal.
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37469
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby unjonharley » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:38 pm

might ask the mod to put this in the WTF thread
User avatar
unjonharley
 
Posts: 8824
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Location: Salem Or.

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby jkisha » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:14 pm

:roll: I can see it now...how many people can you cram in a Volkswagen.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
User avatar
jkisha
 
Posts: 11403
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby lemur » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:31 pm

limit the amount of art and stuff to spectate and that will limit the amount of people that go to burning man..

make it REALLY a camping trip in the desert.


burning man 2012: no amplified sound, no art over 10 feet tall, no domes over 10 feet tall...
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby essjay » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:35 pm

taltenberg wrote:It seems to me that the number of vehicles is a bigger issue than the number of actual people. Therefore, what about this as another solution to the ticketing dilemma:

. . .

[*]With this system, there could then be limits placed on each category of tickets, perhaps something like: 30,000 person-only, 15,000 regular vehicles and 15,000 large vehicles. This would allow 60,000 people but only 30,000 vehicles. (These numbers are random guesses, basically. I wonder of BM folks have data on numbers of vehicles in past years, along with total population. Assuming there is some such data, then numbers could be based on it.)
[*]Such a system would encourage carpooling, and might even create a market for a shuttle system from Reno or Wadsworth or Gerlach. What if hundreds or thousands of people drove to Gerlach, then transferred their gear to shuttle buses (flatbed/bread trucks) and got shuttled in... People/groups (maybe the school) could make money providing parking and a shuttle service, and the playa and BRC would have fewer cars. (And of course, the further away the shuttles start (Reno, Sacramento...), the bigger the reduction of carbon footprint...) Perhaps the Exodus can include a "carpool" lane and/or a shuttle lane...[/list]
Just a few ideas toward making BRC more liveable, and allow it to grow... Thanks to John Govsky for this idea; he and I discussed it over coffee...


I like the idea, but I think your numbers are a bit off and can be even better. Given the number of RVs out there and the make-up of the vehicles in the gate line, I would guess that there are less than 30,000 vehicles out there already. (You rarely see less than 2 people in a vehicle, so at 2 people to a vehicle, you would already have less than 30,000 vehicles. The real rate is better than that - I would guess an average of over 3 per vehicle.) If the bmorg was very strict about carpooling, I bet they could get the number down well below 20,000.

They could set up park and ride lots in Reno/airport and Winnemucca or Elko, and create a big incentive for people to meet up with larger vehicles/trailers who can take in the people and their loads from smaller vehicles - try to minimize the number of small 1 & 2-passenger vehicles that drive out to the playa. Another type of incentive could be "car entry" fees (basically, a fancy parking fee) that would charge less per head for entry, the more people that are in the vehicle, the less they pay. Of course, it would be nice if ticket prices were also reduced to compensate for the new entry fee, so that it does not just become a new tax, but rather a real incentive on your overall ticket/entry price.

Some people have questioned whether it is really the road size that is causing such a headache. After seeing years of entry and exodus while driving my ass in and out, I believe that the road space is the major problem. IMHO it would be worth it to reduce the number of vehicles that get on to the playa.
essjay
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Vegas

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby Eric » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:45 pm

The LLC has to be able to account for the number of people in BRC at all times, and be able to give those numbers to the BLM to make sure we're staying within the limits. Having excess population can lead to problems with the permit, and the "vehicle" method has no way to account for this.

The "head count discount" method would mean that no one got a ticket until they showed up at the Gate: just imagine that clusterfuck at 12:01am Monday for a little while...
Survival Guide * First Timers Guide * Ticket Info

Regarding Ticket Scalpers and Scammers

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Eric ShutterSlut
BRC Weekly
User avatar
Eric
Moderator
 
Posts: 7117
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby essjay » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:49 pm

Eric wrote:The LLC has to be able to account for the number of people in BRC at all times, and be able to give those numbers to the BLM to make sure we're staying within the limits. Having excess population can lead to problems with the permit, and the "vehicle" method has no way to account for this.

The "head count discount" method would mean that no one got a ticket until they showed up at the Gate: just imagine that clusterfuck at 12:01am Monday for a little while...



No, they certainly couldn't tie the ticket purchase to the headcount discount - they would need to be separate transactions.
essjay
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Vegas

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby trilobyte » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:54 pm

I can appreciate the intent, but I think that negotiating such a permit with the BLM would be impossible. Further, enforcing conditional tickets at the gate would be a nightmare (turning a vehicle around because it didn't have the right kind of ticket, etc).
User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10695
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:54 pm
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby capjbadger » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:05 pm

lemur wrote:burning man 2012: no amplified sound, no art over 10 feet tall, no domes over 10 feet tall...

Son of a bitch... I JUST build that damn dome...

-Badger
Arrrggg!! Avast ye fucking fluffy bunny shirtcockers! Haul your drunken hairy fat ass out of our sight or prepare to receive a hot buttered hedgehog fired up your aft quarters!

Honey Badger don't care. Honey Badger don't give a shit!
User avatar
capjbadger
 
Posts: 2692
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Horus' Left Armpit
Burning Since: 2005
Camp Name: Lamplighters

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby BBadger » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:54 am

Next year's Burning Man theme: Clown cars.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.
User avatar
BBadger
 
Posts: 3979
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:37 am
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA
Burning Since: I'm not sure

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby AntiM » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:13 am

BBadger wrote:Next year's Burning Man theme: Clown cars.


We're all bozos on this bus.
These are not my fuckos.
User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
 
Posts: 16400
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:23 am
Location: Top O' the World, Ma!
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby FIGJAM » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:49 am

Here ya go! 8)

"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me
User avatar
FIGJAM
 
Posts: 7095
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby Lord Of Ruin » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:48 pm

essjay wrote:
taltenberg wrote:It seems to me that the number of vehicles is a bigger issue than the number of actual people. Therefore, what about this as another solution to the ticketing dilemma:

. . .

[*]With this system, there could then be limits placed on each category of tickets, perhaps something like: 30,000 person-only, 15,000 regular vehicles and 15,000 large vehicles. This would allow 60,000 people but only 30,000 vehicles. (These numbers are random guesses, basically. I wonder of BM folks have data on numbers of vehicles in past years, along with total population. Assuming there is some such data, then numbers could be based on it.)
[*]Such a system would encourage carpooling, and might even create a market for a shuttle system from Reno or Wadsworth or Gerlach. What if hundreds or thousands of people drove to Gerlach, then transferred their gear to shuttle buses (flatbed/bread trucks) and got shuttled in... People/groups (maybe the school) could make money providing parking and a shuttle service, and the playa and BRC would have fewer cars. (And of course, the further away the shuttles start (Reno, Sacramento...), the bigger the reduction of carbon footprint...) Perhaps the Exodus can include a "carpool" lane and/or a shuttle lane...[/list]
Just a few ideas toward making BRC more liveable, and allow it to grow... Thanks to John Govsky for this idea; he and I discussed it over coffee...


I like the idea, but I think your numbers are a bit off and can be even better. Given the number of RVs out there and the make-up of the vehicles in the gate line, I would guess that there are less than 30,000 vehicles out there already. (You rarely see less than 2 people in a vehicle, so at 2 people to a vehicle, you would already have less than 30,000 vehicles. The real rate is better than that - I would guess an average of over 3 per vehicle.) If the bmorg was very strict about carpooling, I bet they could get the number down well below 20,000.

They could set up park and ride lots in Reno/airport and Winnemucca or Elko, and create a big incentive for people to meet up with larger vehicles/trailers who can take in the people and their loads from smaller vehicles - try to minimize the number of small 1 & 2-passenger vehicles that drive out to the playa. Another type of incentive could be "car entry" fees (basically, a fancy parking fee) that would charge less per head for entry, the more people that are in the vehicle, the less they pay. Of course, it would be nice if ticket prices were also reduced to compensate for the new entry fee, so that it does not just become a new tax, but rather a real incentive on your overall ticket/entry price.

Some people have questioned whether it is really the road size that is causing such a headache. After seeing years of entry and exodus while driving my ass in and out, I believe that the road space is the major problem. IMHO it would be worth it to reduce the number of vehicles that get on to the playa.


You're close...but you haven't articulated it well/gotten to the real mechanism to do it. To accomplish this...you split your fees.

Like most other places...there's a per person ticket price/cost, and then there's your "camping pass/parking pass." Done and done.

You can fiddle with the prices and packaging of each to satisfy the BLM, and to encourage desirable behavior (whatever that is).

LoR
The fox provides for himself, but God provides for the lion - W. Blake (attribution corrected)
Lord Of Ruin
 
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:22 pm
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby Rice » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:57 pm

How about not allowing people who don't participate...

Simply, demonstrate that you have volunteered and contributed to the city - or you are not allowed in. (Yes, virgins would need some sort of initiation protocol, sponsorship or something.)

Why would this idea be any less stupid???
Love Rice

Roach: "I feel like in this day and age, every girl should know how to build a flamethrower."
User avatar
Rice
 
Posts: 1643
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:33 pm
Location: Great White North, Saskatchewan, Canada
Burning Since: 2007

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby AntiM » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:48 pm

stretch80 wrote:How about not allowing people who don't participate...

Simply, demonstrate that you have volunteered and contributed to the city - or you are not allowed in. (Yes, virgins would need some sort of initiation protocol, sponsorship or something.)

Why would this idea be any less stupid???


As a virgin, I didn't know one person who was a burner. I stumbled upon the event by accident, and had no way to meet anyone involved in burning at that time. We were stealth virgins, no one thought it was our first year. We have attended 11 times and bring an art project or two annually. So MyLarry and I would have been excluded. THAT is why it is a bad idea from my perspective.
Friends of burners don't always make for good burners. I've brought people who I thought would be terrific and they were whiny dicks. Stealth virgins add new dimensions and excitement to the event. How about we make all old timers take off a year and give their tickets to new blood, then let them battle it out for a ticket the next year?
These are not my fuckos.
User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
 
Posts: 16400
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:23 am
Location: Top O' the World, Ma!
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby essjay » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:00 pm

Lord Of Ruin wrote:
You're close...but you haven't articulated it well/gotten to the real mechanism to do it. To accomplish this...you split your fees.

Like most other places...there's a per person ticket price/cost, and then there's your "camping pass/parking pass." Done and done.

You can fiddle with the prices and packaging of each to satisfy the BLM, and to encourage desirable behavior (whatever that is).

LoR


Sorry if I didn't articulate it well. . . But, yes, that is exactly what I was thinking and why I suggested that it would be two separate transactions.

Everyone pays the same price for their ticket. Then, there is a separate "parking fee" that rewards burners who make it on to the playa with less people per vehicle.
essjay
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Vegas

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby ygmir » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:10 pm

essjay wrote:
Lord Of Ruin wrote:
You're close...but you haven't articulated it well/gotten to the real mechanism to do it. To accomplish this...you split your fees.

Like most other places...there's a per person ticket price/cost, and then there's your "camping pass/parking pass." Done and done.

You can fiddle with the prices and packaging of each to satisfy the BLM, and to encourage desirable behavior (whatever that is).

LoR


Sorry if I didn't articulate it well. . . But, yes, that is exactly what I was thinking and why I suggested that it would be two separate transactions.

Everyone pays the same price for their ticket. Then, there is a separate "parking fee" that rewards burners who make it on to the playa with less people per vehicle.

don't you mean "more"?

and this:

[*]Such a system would encourage carpooling, and might even create a market for a shuttle system from Reno or Wadsworth or Gerlach. What if hundreds or thousands of people drove to Gerlach, then transferred their gear to shuttle buses (flatbed/bread trucks) and got shuttled in... People/groups (maybe the school) could make money providing parking and a shuttle service, and the playa and BRC would have fewer cars. (And of course, the further away the shuttles start (Reno, Sacramento...), the bigger the reduction of carbon footprint...) Perhaps the Exodus can include a "carpool" lane and/or a shuttle lane...[/list]


and just imagine the deals on car audio and video systems, fuel, and tire repair after the Burn...............
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25998
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby Nipple » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:33 pm

You'd have to be careful that no one is ferrying people. Everyone leaves with the person they came to the dance with...

Otherwise you run a HUGE risk of a ride dematerializing and stranding a stupid amount of people.
User avatar
Nipple
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:36 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:44 pm

taltenberg wrote:It seems to me that...

Always a promising start.

(and I never, ever, ever used that myself...)
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37469
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:46 pm

Well begun is half done.
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
User avatar
Ugly Dougly
 
Posts: 16342
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Burning Since: 1996

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby Lord Of Ruin » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:09 pm

Nipple wrote:You'd have to be careful that no one is ferrying people. Everyone leaves with the person they came to the dance with...

Otherwise you run a HUGE risk of a ride dematerializing and stranding a stupid amount of people.


But how is this different than now? Everyone doesn't drive their own vehicle now...most share in some way with others.
The fox provides for himself, but God provides for the lion - W. Blake (attribution corrected)
Lord Of Ruin
 
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:22 pm
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Another option: Limit vehicles not people

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:18 pm

NIpple is pointing out that someone might give rides to (say) two extra people, and divide the car entry fee with them. And then somehow, not pick them up again on Exodus.
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37469
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017


Return to 2012 Tickets Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests