Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby gyre » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:57 am

Why is excessive voiume a sacred cow?


These are my speakers, though mine are the pa version and look different.

Image
Image

Having artillery doesn't automatically make you a fool.
I've been involved with a number of concerts and studios.
I'm not unfamiliar with audio.

Why does anyone want volume beyond a rational point?
High power and very high bass are no special accomplishment now.
It's easy.


By the way, the french stopped some high decibel bass experiments when the technicians behind lead and concrete were found to be suffering internal bleeding.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby BBadger » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:24 pm

Well, there are other explanations for high volume too: the high volume music can damage your cells and cause your body to release endorphins. So you get a, uh, "raver's high" or something.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby lemur » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:45 pm

dangerous volume can injure more people than any laser.

roving "art" cars with highly directional high volume sound can be very dangerous out on the playa..
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby gyre » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:29 pm

This gets complex really quickly, but hearing is both psychological (interpreted or interpolated) and physical.

Noise (sound you don't want to listen to) does more damage than the same sound when it is welcome.

Harsh, non-harmonic sound is more damaging.
Examples in music include cheap amplifiers or overdriven amps, as well as all inharmonic sound.
NVH has actually been coined to refer to this issue = noise/ vibration/ harshness.
NVH is more important than volume.

The theory is that we don't hear some frequencies as well at lower volumes, so this is why people turn up volume.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_curve

Whether true or not, we have a craving for accurate sound.
Physics being what they are, most home speakers can't produce lower bass, and distort when producing what bass they do produce.
Worse, most music is filtered for lower bass.
Digital sound is also worst at the lower frequencies.

I found when I moved to my better speakers, that i was satisfied with the bass I didn't know I had been missing.
Perhaps more important, larger cone surface reduces distortion dramatically.
(I had actually asked about this issue in class years ago, as my high frequency horn drivers weigh nothing and bass speakers are heavy and heavily loaded, as well.
I was told that we don't hear bass dixtortion as easily as high frequency distortion or inaccuracy.
WRONG!!!)

To my shock, I actually prefer listening at even lower levels as long as the bass reproduction is adequate.
Lower volumes reduce distortion even further.
Less driver excursion = less distortion, harmonic and otherwise.

Trying to solve apartment issues for people with poorly built walls, I actually suggest upping their lower bass capability and turning down the total volume.

Granted, this may not be an easy solution, but physics are physics.
No matter what mono subwoofer bullshit companies try to sell these days, don't be fooled.
(And never use a mono subwoofer except for mono sound.)
Good sound requires good amplifiers and good speakers.
I can tell you how to save money, but there are no shortcuts to decent audio.

The speakers posted spec 15hz to 23Khz, and those are not fantasy figures like most specs.
To reach that level of accuracy, I recommend four 18" bass drivers or equivalent, say by using many smaller drivers.
Preferably double that.

And I believe in live rooms too, even for recording.

All speakers distort less at lower volumes.
All speakers are more accurate at lower levels.


HOWEVER,
big pa systems are well past these levels now and are capable of very low frequency bass.

Many of the sound systems on the playa are very capable of producing deep and accurate bass without blaring at annoying levels for long distances.
The bass would still penetrate in the area.

Yes, we have proprioceptors in many areas of the body, but there are dimishing returns with using audio as a stimulus.
Audio, especially in open air is a logarithmic curve to add volume.

Nexus or the people that have produced their sound go into great detail on their webhouse about concern for accuracy over noise, and the pointlessness of excessive volume.
Still too loud on the playa, but they have thought about these issues and seem to understand them.


I went to a regional that was so loud that I could either not go into the active area or wear earplugs, or suffer.
Conversation was impossible.
No one outside of a few dancers wanted those levels.
At the nexus point between the speakers, I could feel my insides resonating, obviously very dangerous levels.
The dance area was maybe thirty feet, but everyone had their fun pissed on.
Much louder than burning man, on average.
It wasn't pleasant.
Why?

I like the people at the regional and have no plans to return.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby Risky » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:20 am

ygmir wrote:
Snow wrote:HI WIFE! I never even saw you in BRC, not even once.

I even went looking for her, and could find her.

"The elusive Siren"


Oops. I don't come here that often anymore and missed this until now.
I was earlobe to ankle in the Temple project this year and camped all the way over at 915, instead of the the 3 o'clock Reno 'hood.
Most everyone was international, with very few folks from Reno.
We truly never stopped working, but I managed to party harder than ever before.
You would think that once the event started we could relax.
But they would call us on the radio for art tours and repairs and burn plans.
Someone always had to be available and meetings continued.
So the core group camped together so that we could constantly convene and troubleshoot.

I had an art support sticker and did drive my ass over to Terminal Village a few times.
They will always have a piece of my heart.

westnileraven wrote:Also I just really hate you laser-raping all the effigies...

oh shit! I am so using this term. Laser-raping! gigglesnort
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:28 am

Image
I'm not bringing a power meter out to the playa to check every laser pointer.
But it's easy enough to snatch a pointer out of your average hippy's hands and fling it into the deep playa.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby gyre » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:07 pm

Someone posted that they don't care about damaging their hearing.

Most people don't understand tinnitus.
It's not silence.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-storie ... -23569914/


A MAN stabbed himself to death after a rock concert left him with severe tinnitus, an inquest heard yesterday.

Robert McIndoe, 52, was unable to sleep for three months after seeing Them Crooked Vultures at the Brixton Academy, London.

The inquest heard he had previously taken an ­overdose at his home in Sydenham.

His psychiatrist, Dr Helen Stinson, said: “He accepted death as a side-effect of s­topping the noise.”

Wife Shirley said: “He just wanted not to be suffering.”
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby westnileraven » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:19 pm

no its loud as fuck. So far it has always faded in a day or two. Hence, earplugs or walking away from the speakers.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby Ugly Dougly » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:30 am

It's always there for me. It would make me crazy if I wasn't already.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby sharpstick » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:06 am

Zhust wrote:Dear everyone kvetching,

Shut the fuck up and let someone who has personally been injured by a laser to step forward. . . .


2014 burn night. A ranger on perimeter duty was taken to Reno after being painted with a laser from the crowd. Permanent full blindness resulted in one eye and partial blindness in the other. Happy now??!!
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby Colonel Monk » Mon May 04, 2015 8:53 am

^^^^ yeah, this.

Some fucktard thought it would be funny to shine his laser in the ranger's eyes, and now this volunteer that helps make this event happen is BLIND. Does any one of us have any idea how serious that is?

Well it's true, serious injury or death can occur at burning man. Both have happened multiple times. But it doesn't mean we as participants should purposely make it more dangerous.

I feel shitty that someone got hurt.

I also feel shitty that lasers are going to have a diminshed presence at the event, because it was one of the coolest aspects of the night. At Juplaya a few years ago a camp had this bad ass laser (which is one of the prominent green lasers at BRC) and as we approached their camp in my vehicle, they shot star wars laser bursts over head, it was awesome was like we were fighting the death star. My buddy made a blue laser scepter for burning man that shot lasers with motorized mirrors and choppers up into the air at a steep angle, was truly an awesome piece of mobile art.

Neither of these will be allowed anymore because some Darwin award winner had to blind a Ranger with their retardation. Nice going asshole.

Whomever suggested pepper spray, I just might add that to my list. If I ever see someone doing that on playa they'll get a taste of their own medicine.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby sharpstick » Mon May 04, 2015 8:57 am

lasers will still be allowed on art cars and stationary camps, but they must be inspected and registered.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby Ratty » Mon May 04, 2015 9:04 am

If I ever see someone doing that on playa they'll get a taste of their own medicine.
Don't be a hater. (I hope you're kidding.) Aggressive violence isn't the best remedy.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby Colonel Monk » Mon May 04, 2015 10:26 am

sharpstick wrote:lasers will still be allowed on art cars and stationary camps, but they must be inspected and registered.


Seems perhaps.... my understanding is that DMV is still trying to figure out HOW they will be allowed.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby digital » Mon May 04, 2015 12:54 pm

Ratty wrote:
If I ever see someone doing that on playa they'll get a taste of their own medicine.
Don't be a hater. (I hope you're kidding.) Aggressive violence isn't the best remedy.

It has nothing to do with being a hater. If someone attacks you, physically, at an ATM and you pepper spray the person are you being a hater? A laser aimed at people working burn perimeter is the initial act of aggressive violence. Doing whatever is necessary to stop the person wielding the laser is self-defense.

Speaking as someone in the same line of fire as rangers (see my avatar) you can bet your ass if I see someone shining a laser at me or my crew I will take action. Personally, I will not use pepper spray but I will find the nearest law enforcement officer or ranger to get the device taken away and hopefully the person ejected from the event. I had to do this with a drone operator last year who flew his unregistered drone inches away from the man as we rigged pyro. I chased the motherfucker down and wanted to smash it, and would have, except that he landed on an art car.

You threaten the safety of me or my crew and there will be consequences. It's not all sunshine and rainbows working a burn perimeter. It's doing whatever it takes to prevent injury.
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby Colonel Monk » Wed May 06, 2015 2:37 pm

Ratty wrote:
If I ever see someone doing that on playa they'll get a taste of their own medicine.
Don't be a hater. (I hope you're kidding.) Aggressive violence isn't the best remedy.


The best remedy would have been using one's brain, but that is no longer an option. Those of us that used lasers safely are no longer permitted to do so, and one of our own has a serious vision impairment.

People that support the BAN of lasers outright, because they are annoyed by tags or whatever..... Be careful what you wish for. This is a very slippery slope, next it could be anything, from alcohol, to RVs, to generators, to FIRE... Just take a look at what has happened to the ole USA, once the overwhelming "land of the free" you can now barely have any fun at all without restrictions. I'm not a "greater good" kind of guy. I like the wild west of BRC, and we don't need a kinder gentler Burning Man.

I may not like dubstep, but I would never support a ban on it either. If we can't have freedom in BRC, then where? If someone was misusing the dubstep against another burner, then perhaps some light sabotage or other corrective action would be warranted. But banning? Do not mistake my lack of support for the laser ban with lack of support for Ranger Halston.

Would I smack down someone shooting their laser into someone's eyes? That all depends. When I told them to knock it off, if they said they were sorry, they were just to dumb to know you shouldn't do that, then of course not. But were they to persist in this activity then yes, someone needs to do something because someone's vision is definitely worth it. The right move would probably be some kind of dusty citizen's arrest, followed by assistance from rangers - or LEO if it came to that.

Sorry if you don't agree but it ain't all peace and love. Radical Inclusion seems to be failing us in some measure. I don't know what's wrong but it isn't all right either. We let idiots in thru our radical inclusion, but we are no longer including radical free expression with laser light by folks that were doing it safely.

CM
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby some seeing eye » Wed May 06, 2015 3:35 pm

Colonel Monk, you and Melodiousdirge have the opportunity to be the poster children for the new policy by applying through the Placement, MV or Artery channels, then using lasers safely on the playa. The event needs people like you to go through the process.

It's not a live free or die issue. It is if you can't get insurance the entire event is canceled.

4th of Juplaya is unregulated so far.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion
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Re: Lasers in the eye - Serious injury, Please Read

Postby trilobyte » Wed May 06, 2015 4:01 pm

I'm putting a fork in this years-old thread. It's not that lasers are a non-issue, or that we don't care about laser safety, it's that Burning Man has a new laser policy for 2015. Please take a moment to read this post, and check the links to the policy and additional safety information, and feel free to continue the conversation in that thread.
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