non-transferable tickets for 2012

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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby BBadger » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:30 pm

starlightbright wrote:that doesn't change the demographic, though. most of these week-long warriors aren't paying attention to the burning man calendar because being a burner is something they are for 1 week a year. they buy their tickets after they've rallied enough people to go-in on an RV - usually pretty late in the game.


If these burners are anything like the burners I know, they plan months in advance for an event that they look forward to the moment they leave the previous year. Not a huge loss then.

So this person would be the same type of person who buys an airline ticket from Australia, rental for an RV, and yet doesn't buy the ticket? Because if I were paying to bring an art project to BM, the absolute very first thing I'd be purchasing is the ticket to get in the door.

meaning the type of person who works in a coffee house? i don't think this would include international burners (excluding canadians) unless they threw some pretty big fund raisers.


It's the same kind of thing because there is a substantial investment in attending, and yet they drop the ball on the most important thing that will actually allow them to attend. I see little distinction.

Coachella doesn't attract the same type of people;

you mean, spectators?


Spectators who have to bring their entire camp with them for a week instead of staying at a hotel at a polo club? Spectators who don't need to travel to the middle of a dry lake bed in hellish conditions? Spectators who aren't just there to watch their favorite mainstream band? Yeah, I think it attracts different folks.

it doesn't have easy accommodations;

burning man doesn't have easy accommodations.


Sorry, that was a typo.

it is only half the size of BM;

do you mean in terms of area? in 2010, coachella had 75,000 spectators or more each day.


You're right, that was incorrect.

and it has mainstream bands people want to see.

burning man has mainstream DJs booked though agencies by bmorg.


As stated before, BMorg doesn't book anyone. Actually, all Bmorg organizes are the temple, man and megatropolis burns and the facilities. Everything else is brought by other people.

BM may sell out again next year, and there will be scalpers. It won't be a problem though, because tickets will be available for a long time.

coachella tickets were being scalped for $800, and many people thought that was a good deal. professional scalpers scooped up hundreds of tickets each. i don't know why they'd leave burning man alone now that they know the event can actually sell out. the race will be on, and there will be tens thousands of dollars to be made by pro scalpers. i'd be surprised if tickets are available after one week.


We'll see. I'm betting it'll be another replay of this year.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby JCarter » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:38 pm

starlightbright wrote:
i agree. however, it may be the biggest year for it - which could jeopardise the whole thing for us all.

if they ended burning man right now - thousands would still show up, and thousands are being denied entry this year. i don't want it to end this way - with those people running the gate and causing the BLM to shut us down.



I'm not sure I'd agree. There's a certain Götterdämmerung type feel to that vision. Faceless hordes of desperate people wanting to go in, Larry Harvey joining in with the Perimeter crew to fight them off using feather boas and modified art cars while the black helicopters come swooping in to end them all.

Even though it would suck, I gotta say that would be a fucking legendary end and I would be sad as hell I wasn't there for it.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:01 pm

JCarter wrote:
starlightbright wrote:
i agree. however, it may be the biggest year for it - which could jeopardise the whole thing for us all.

if they ended burning man right now - thousands would still show up, and thousands are being denied entry this year. i don't want it to end this way - with those people running the gate and causing the BLM to shut us down.



I'm not sure I'd agree. There's a certain Götterdämmerung type feel to that vision. Faceless hordes of desperate people wanting to go in, Larry Harvey joining in with the Perimeter crew to fight them off using feather boas and modified art cars while the black helicopters come swooping in to end them all.

Even though it would suck, I gotta say that would be a fucking legendary end and I would be sad as hell I wasn't there for it.

Well, there'd be lots of video, some set to dubstep.

(actually, that sounds pretty cool, thanks for the image, JCarter)
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby Cheyenne » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:43 pm

I am in the UK and I started planning my 2011 Burn in OCTOBER 2010... I booked the RV first... super early to get a really cheap deal, then got tickets on ticket fiasco day +1... it wasn't hard, I used my credit card - and kept the numbers etc etc...

I relocated from Manchester to the top of a mountain on the Welsh borders so I could at least reduce some of my essential outgoings to be able to make it this year.... I have paid for flights, the rest of the RV and other bits - and I will still be paying this years burn costs off probably 12 mths later!!!

.... and you know what, I don't care! I'm working a fucking 16 hour day to finish my studies to hand in before I fly and I'm also sewing sails for the artcar and donating my time and materials ...

And I'm bloody loving it....

Planning ahead is not sooooo hard....

Next year I'll be going to DEMF again, as I need my Detroit fix every so often - but who knows, if I have the money - I'll be back for the burn too!
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby JCarter » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:14 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:(actually, that sounds pretty cool, thanks for the image, JCarter)


Why thank you. I was thinking of using at as an actual theme camp at Burning Man but I can't think of a way to do it that doesn't feel at least a little like "Triumph of Will", a civil war re-enactment or some atrocity laden primitive ritual(this is what happens when you have too many Icelanders for friends, I think. It always seems to get back to atrocity laden primitive rituals).

But back to the topic at hand. I think that right now there is a lot of shock going around, especially in the US, and that once the scalpers come up against the reality that the price of the ticket(for most people) by necessity has to be the lowest expense(otherwise it becomes much harder to afford) and they'll do it for a year, maybe two.

I don't think people jumping the gate on their own but depending on how many people you get on Perimeter it would, in theory, be possible to have people make serious attempts to get across(with the understanding that they would need to get themselves and all of their gear across) but you'd have to be really, really short staffed or the people crossing would have to be really, really good.
If Neil deGrasse Tyson pulled me off the street to tell me about astronomy that would be awesome. If I was in Amsterdam when this happened and could convince him to tell me about it at a coffeeshop it would be ideal. Just sayin'.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby FIGJAM » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:32 pm

Then all the leo's will be doing perimeter?

Sounds good to me. 8)
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby The CO » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:02 pm

"Scalpers do not work at long term investments. They want to get a ticket & turn it around @ a profit in the shortest amount of time possible. As in hours. Not days. Not weeks. Not months. Not three-quarters of a year."
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby BBadger » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:53 am

The CO wrote:"Scalpers do not work at long term investments. They want to get a ticket & turn it around @ a profit in the shortest amount of time possible. As in hours. Not days. Not weeks. Not months. Not three-quarters of a year."


Exactly. I'm guessing that most scalpers this year simply were in tune with the Jack Rabbit Speaks, saw that tickets jumped to $360 and would likely sell out, and bought some to scalp. We're not going to see, however, cartels of scalpers engineering a shortage. This is not an event with predictable attendance, nor a wide audience to sell to. Plus people expect to pay face value at the most.

One thing I'd like to see how many tickets were never sold by scalpers, and what the average price ended up being. It may be pitifully low.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby gyre » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:19 am

While the optimism about scalping is laudatory, let's look at this.

Buying 100 first tier tickets costs $21,000 + expenses.

Selling them at $400 each later in the year, or even immediately, grosses $40,000.

That is $19,000 less expenses for profit.

Risk of selling tickets below cost, provided they don't wait too long to dump them = zero.

Those numbers are without a sellout or over pricing.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby trilobyte » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:54 am

Those numbers look great to you, but... professional scalpers see better margins with less risk and faster turnaround with almost every other kind of event they participate in. Why dump $21K into something that will net you $40K in 4-6 months, when you can dump it into something that will net you $50K or more in far less time (4-6 weeks)?
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby trilobyte » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:56 am

Most 'scalpers' this year were actually "real burners" who gave in to temptation to make a fast buck. A lot of the people you saw auctioning tickets for big money again and again, likely re-listing tickets that didn't sell because of fraudulent bids.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby gyre » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:04 am

Seems true, but it's low risk if you get low tiers.

I see scalpers losing money here on concerts.
Hope that's a trend.
Some people are so gullible.

I've seen scalpers stocked up on tickets for years now.
It's a well known event on the coast.

I'm sure they would love to sell quickly.
Still, almost 100% profit in a half a year doesn't seem bad.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby gyre » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:06 am

trilobyte wrote:Most 'scalpers' this year were actually "real burners" who gave in to temptation to make a fast buck. A lot of the people you saw auctioning tickets for big money again and again, likely re-listing tickets that didn't sell because of fraudulent bids.

All the usual re-sellers were stocked up before it sold out.

I found several still with stock, only one reasonable.

Some probably buy burning man just hoping for a windfall.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby trilobyte » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:14 am

I think the scalpers who lose money on concerts are likely the lower end of that spectrum. Just following the TicketBastard emails of new/upcoming events, it would be ridiculously easy to spot the truly hot events, stuff that would net you 5-10x face, and are certain to sell out (damn you BieberCyrusSpearstipus!). Add to it the bankable sporting events and then hey it's the internet so let's branch out to other events, and maxing profits on short turnovers is pretty easy.

Don't get me wrong, someday the pro's will set their sites on Burning Man, and there will certainly be challenges when that happens (unless countermeasures are in place to keep it to a minimum). But I believe that's still a few years away.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby Jackass » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:22 am

Your doom and gloom prophecies of BM are completely ridiculous, all this BS about changing ticket procedures is really unnecessary. Start saving as soon as you get back from this years event (or before) and you'll be ready to buy a ticket when they go on sale for next year....problem solved. If you had done so this year we would not be having this conversation, but you lagged for whatever reason and now you think there is going to be too little "real" burners in attendance. A real burner is one who possesses a ticket and gets into the event, that's it. Plan ahead and quit being a chicken little, take responsibility for your actions and quit blaming scalpers for your dilemma. Lots of people coming up with crafty ideas as to how to mitigate scalping, but no fucking brains as to how to secure their passage to the burn. A lesson to be learned...see you on the playa!!
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby gyre » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:44 am

trilobyte wrote:I think the scalpers who lose money on concerts are likely the lower end of that spectrum. Just following the TicketBastard emails of new/upcoming events, it would be ridiculously easy to spot the truly hot events, stuff that would net you 5-10x face, and are certain to sell out (damn you BieberCyrusSpearstipus!). Add to it the bankable sporting events and then hey it's the internet so let's branch out to other events, and maxing profits on short turnovers is pretty easy.

Don't get me wrong, someday the pro's will set their sites on Burning Man, and there will certainly be challenges when that happens (unless countermeasures are in place to keep it to a minimum). But I believe that's still a few years away.

I hope so.
I think there is already too much to be acceptable, if they keep tiers anyhow.

Just applying measures to the lower tiers would stop most of it now.

The audience may determine that too.
Some types of fans are less prone to bullshit.
Clearly Dylan fans aren't buying into scalping.

True about some shows having that buzz.

We always knew we could sell out zztopp here.
Once had 3000 outside wanting tickets at the largest venue after tickets were gone.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby starlightbright » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:26 am

Jackass wrote:and now you think there is going to be too little "real" burners in attendance. A real burner is one who possesses a ticket and gets into the event, that's it.

i had no idea it was that easy. 'real burner' = 'ticket holder'. it's so simple, and clarifies everything regarding the whole 'what is a burner?' thing. it also explains that social heat people get for taking a year off from attending - it's because it's the same thing as turning in your real-burner card, and your friends see that as some sort of betrayal of who they thought you were, and even undermines the value of their own self-identity as proud ticket-holders- i mean, real-burners.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby AntiM » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:26 am

There has been a wild serendipitous combination of random chance, perfect timing, misfortune and generosity which put tickets into the hands of four "real burners" this year, who otherwise would have stayed far away from the playa. Your plan would have denied them this chance to go home.

And who knows how many "not real burners by YOUR definition" become real burners in a heartbeat in the dust? We had a man camping next to us, polo shirt and khaki pants, neatly trimmed hair, in a tidy little camper. We gave him a negligee, he loved it. Went to the Black Rock Boutique and stocked up on women's underthings. The next year, he camped next to us, the long hair, the utilikilt, volunteering his ass off, discovering his art. Said his wife was jealous of his lingerie collection, as it was nicer than hers. By the definition of "real burner" he'd not have been allowed to attend the first year as he looked exactly like a business man, a vanilla suburbanite.

Screw that. We welcome the stranger. We don't have to like them, or approve of them, but we need to communicate with them and help them find the real burner within. The ones who are not into being a burner generally don't come back, they find a cheaper, easier party elsewhere. Why struggle for tickets to that hot, dusty damn thing so far away?

Do you hassle those who choose to burn in clothing other than a costume? Doing so is the same rookie mistake as predetermining who is burnery enough to buy a ticket, and to forbid anyone the chance to gift or help facilitate acquisition of tickets on the secondary market, It can, and DOES happen without scalping.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby RACESV » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:10 am

starlightbright wrote: on the plus side, frat boys and blatant tourists will also be mostly gone.


I am a fraternity brother as is almost every guy in our theme camp, "Champage Lounge." This is our forth year in our second incarnation of this theme camp and we pride ourselves in providing a service to BM and being an active camp for all to enjoy. I have personally built an art car and have taken it out for the last three years and never turned a person that wanted a ride away if it was safe to have them on the car. Also, most of us are slaves to corporations for most of the year. Feel free to come by and say hello and see what "frat boys" and "corporate slaves" produce on the playa every day from noon-2 and enjoy some champage and an open mic for all artists to showcase their art. 7:00 on Rod's Road.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:24 am

trilobyte wrote:Those numbers look great to you, but... professional scalpers see better margins with less risk and faster turnaround with almost every other kind of event they participate in. Why dump $21K into something that will net you $40K in 4-6 months, when you can dump it into something that will net you $50K or more in far less time (4-6 weeks)?

And then you can turn around and invest it again. Which could mean that you get the 50k four times in the same time frame as getting the 40k.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby BBadger » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:17 pm

gyre wrote:Seems true, but it's low risk if you get low tiers.

I see scalpers losing money here on concerts.
Hope that's a trend.
Some people are so gullible.


Yeah, but low tiers are low tiers. It's hard enough clicking at the exact right moment to even get in those anyway. Were you complaining this loudly about scalpers before the sell-out? I can't remember it. What makes it any different now? Plus, people already complain about the "unfairness" of those people who wake up early and deal with the stress of the first-day ticket sales getting cheaper tickets than everyone else. You can't please everyone.

starlightbright wrote:
Jackass wrote:and now you think there is going to be too little "real" burners in attendance. A real burner is one who possesses a ticket and gets into the event, that's it.

i had no idea it was that easy. 'real burner' = 'ticket holder'. it's so simple, and clarifies everything regarding the whole 'what is a burner?' thing. it also explains that social heat people get for taking a year off from attending - it's because it's the same thing as turning in your real-burner card, and your friends see that as some sort of betrayal of who they thought you were, and even undermines the value of their own self-identity as proud ticket-holders- i mean, real-burners.


I think what he means by that is that the people who are going to have the tickets are the ones who have planned to go for a long time already and buy their tickets early/when available in anticipation of going. It's not a hard and fast rule of course. There are many people who simply assumed it would be like previous years and that they could get them at any time before the event, or possibly at the gate, for the normal price. Next year we'll get to see who has been planning on going for a long time, possibly using the money from the previous year's non-attendance.
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Re: non-transferable tickets for 2012

Postby gyre » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:02 pm

Yes, all these ideas are old ones, except for returning tickets to the llc, to be re-issued.

Note that all these suggestions have a secondary market, it is simply controlled to make it as fair as possible and cut out scalping.
One version would allow transfers the same as now, only through a procedure to limit scalping, hopefully.

The llc already re-issues scholarship tickets when informed they can't be used that year.

It was one thing when tickets didn't sell so fast, but it's hardly high risk for the llc now.

A waiting list would be different, but hardly unfair.
It's just one possible approach though.


I've seen really obnoxious frat boys end up out there, god knows how, and get converted.
And come back.

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