Suicidal Tendencies

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Postby ygmir » Fri May 06, 2011 8:11 pm

that's a tough one, MA.......dang.
can she be 5150'd for her own protection?
not sayin that's right, just wonderin, what can be done?

you're a good friend to try.
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Re: Suicidal Tendencies

Postby wedeliver » Fri May 06, 2011 8:13 pm

maryanimal wrote:I have a friend whom I love very much. She's a sweet, kind and loving, artistic, and very intelligent person, although I don't think she realizes it.

She has these major upswings and down swings. I've known her for some times now and I know she's BiPolar. She has all the characteristics. She's suicidal at times, and it scare me to death (no pun intended). She has so much to live for and I'm afraid one day she may actually take her life without really wanting to. She has a son who loves her. There are many people who love her but she doesn't see it.

I talked with her today and she threatened to kill herself today. It took a while to get her to contact me. She actually thinks nothings wrong with herself, or that she "doesn't want to take medicine, she wants to do it the natural way". From personal experience, natural does NOT work.

I've talked to other friends about this and they tell me just to be there for her and let her talk all she wants, and I do. But as for the helping her, they say she needs to help herself, to really want to have her chemical imbalance defined and treated.

I love her with all my heart (and no, friends only). She is really an amazing human being.

Just venting...my heart is aching right now...


There might be a time where it would be better to take action and call 911 or someone for help

good luck, much love
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Postby maryanimal » Fri May 06, 2011 8:18 pm

ygmir wrote:that's a tough one, MA.......dang.
can she be 5150'd for her own protection?
not sayin that's right, just wonderin, what can be done?

you're a good friend to try.


She's not suicidal all the time. Once in a while she is, but it hurts that I can't be there with her when she does. She has this special aunt she talks with and I think she really helps her. She really loves my friend!

I'm just hoping she'll ask me to come there and go with her to a dr. I would be there in a NY minute!

Thanks yggy
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Postby can't sit still » Fri May 06, 2011 8:19 pm

Maryann, I had a Kiiwi friend who had a huge imbalance of copper in her system. For this or some other reason, she acted bi-polar. She ended her life. Maybe you could get a hair sample and get it tested to see if it showed anything. ANY avenue is worth following.
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Re: Suicidal Tendencies

Postby maryanimal » Fri May 06, 2011 8:20 pm

wedeliver wrote:
maryanimal wrote:I have a friend whom I love very much. She's a sweet, kind and loving, artistic, and very intelligent person, although I don't think she realizes it.

She has these major upswings and down swings. I've known her for some times now and I know she's BiPolar. She has all the characteristics. She's suicidal at times, and it scare me to death (no pun intended). She has so much to live for and I'm afraid one day she may actually take her life without really wanting to. She has a son who loves her. There are many people who love her but she doesn't see it.

I talked with her today and she threatened to kill herself today. It took a while to get her to contact me. She actually thinks nothings wrong with herself, or that she "doesn't want to take medicine, she wants to do it the natural way". From personal experience, natural does NOT work.

I've talked to other friends about this and they tell me just to be there for her and let her talk all she wants, and I do. But as for the helping her, they say she needs to help herself, to really want to have her chemical imbalance defined and treated.

I love her with all my heart (and no, friends only). She is really an amazing human being.

Just venting...my heart is aching right now...


There might be a time where it would be better to take action and call 911 or someone for help

good luck, much love


Thank you wedeliver.
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Postby geospyder » Fri May 06, 2011 8:21 pm

You described our youngest daughter exactly. IF, notice the big if, she stays on her meds she's OK. Off the meds and it is very touch and go. She's been in the hospital for attempted suicide twice in the last year. As crude as it sounds we hope she holds it together at least until the end of this month when her daughter (our granddaughter) graduates high school. Our daughter is in Nebraska; her husband is in Texas with our granddaughter. Her sister is in California. We all plan to be together for the graduation in Texas. We're hoping that it is a good get together and if anything happens after that we would have good memories.

Long story short we know what you're going through. (((((MA)))))
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Postby maryanimal » Fri May 06, 2011 8:26 pm

can't sit still wrote:Maryann, I had a Kiiwi friend who had a huge imbalance of copper in her system. For this or some other reason, she acted bi-polar. She ended her life. Maybe you could get a hair sample and get it tested to see if it showed anything. ANY avenue is worth following.


I wish I could, she lives in another state. Hopefully she'll call me tonight.
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Postby Elorrum » Fri May 06, 2011 8:28 pm

When person says they are suicidal, it means they are.

Call the suicide hotline and see what they recommend. It isn't time to wring your hands and wonder what to do. Ask a pro. You should seek advice from people who work with this day in and day out. If you feel someone is in imminent danger, you can call 911.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri May 06, 2011 8:30 pm

I think a lot of bipolar sufferers have a lot of trouble giving up the manic or hypo-manic state. (Heck, I find it that little bit tempting.) I don't think many miss the depressed state. (It's great for reading Dostoevski, but pretty much useless for everything else.)
We have had a revolution in chemical treatments for mental illness the past quarter of a century. For depression, at least, it's a whole different ball game. (I don't think the schizophrenics did as well.) For bi-polar I only know about two drugs. (I don't follow the field, I just picked up on the way.) Lithium is the old treatment, been around since the 70s or more. It's nasty, because an effective dose is close to a toxic dose means that there's lots of blood tests and monitoring. Depekote has weight gain as a side effect. I wish I'd known that when Scott was alive.
Anyway, it's not that I don't think she should not medicate, I hate that "natural" shit--it's not natural to hate life--it's just the decision is difficult, and adherence takes a commitment.
And very good for you, maryanimal, for standing by her. It's not easy. Madness is not appealing. But you are a lifeline, and having people one can trust is a real help.

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Postby maryanimal » Fri May 06, 2011 9:25 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:I think a lot of bipolar sufferers have a lot of trouble giving up the manic or hypo-manic state. (Heck, I find it that little bit tempting.) I don't think many miss the depressed state. (It's great for reading Dostoevski, but pretty much useless for everything else.)
We have had a revolution in chemical treatments for mental illness the past quarter of a century. For depression, at least, it's a whole different ball game. (I don't think the schizophrenics did as well.) For bi-polar I only know about two drugs. (I don't follow the field, I just picked up on the way.) Lithium is the old treatment, been around since the 70s or more. It's nasty, because an effective dose is close to a toxic dose means that there's lots of blood tests and monitoring. Depekote has weight gain as a side effect. I wish I'd known that when Scott was alive.
Anyway, it's not that I don't think she should not medicate, I hate that "natural" shit--it's not natural to hate life--it's just the decision is difficult, and adherence takes a commitment.
And very good for you, maryanimal, for standing by her. It's not easy. Madness is not appealing. But you are a lifeline, and having people one can trust is a real help.

Edited to correct name.


Fishy, the medicine for BiPolar depression, has come so far. I've never heard of depekote. Lithium is used but not alot these days.

There are so many new meds that are good and don't make you feel drugged up and like a zombie. When you take depression meds at first, you get a feeling of peace and ambivalence. Ambivalence because you can't figure out why you feel the way you do, which is, for the most part, calm. And it may make you tired, which is normal because your system isn't used to having the chemicals balancing out. It takes about 2 weeks until you feel better. And most times it's trial and error untill you find the right med or the right dosage.

It is scary for a lot of people, and some people are so tired of feeling like they can't funtion or control their life, that they just surrender and seek the help they want/need, and praise whoever or whatever they praise, for getting their life back, or a life they never knew was possible.

(((Fishy)))
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Postby maryanimal » Fri May 06, 2011 9:35 pm

geospyder wrote:You described our youngest daughter exactly. IF, notice the big if, she stays on her meds she's OK. Off the meds and it is very touch and go. She's been in the hospital for attempted suicide twice in the last year. As crude as it sounds we hope she holds it together at least until the end of this month when her daughter (our granddaughter) graduates high school. Our daughter is in Nebraska; her husband is in Texas with our granddaughter. Her sister is in California. We all plan to be together for the graduation in Texas. We're hoping that it is a good get together and if anything happens after that we would have good memories.

Long story short we know what you're going through. (((((MA)))))


Was she diagnosed with only BiPolar? Is she also schizoprenic? I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. I wish I could help you in some way, but you'll be in my thoughts and prayers. (((geospyder)))
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Postby maryanimal » Fri May 06, 2011 9:37 pm

There are many types of BiPolarism. Here is a site if anyone has questions or are just curious.

http://www.webmd.com/bipolar-disorder/guide/bipolar-disorder-forms
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Postby jkisha » Fri May 06, 2011 10:13 pm

My first partner of ten years committed suicide. He had made several attempts before finally succeeding. After that, I got trained and worked the suicide hot line for several years. Maybe out of guilt maybe out of just trying to figure out why someone would take their own life.

If someone is determined, there isn't much that you or anyone else can do to help. Without the person being open to treatmen there isn't much that can be done to prevent the inevitable.

That being said, often when people threaten suicide, it is a cry for help or attention and not an actual threat.to kill themselves. To tell the difference, you need to find out it they have a plan on exactly how they are planning to kill themself. If they dont have a plan, or the plan is vague, like oh I'm just going to take some pills, for example, then there isn't much to worry abou and you can spend time just listening to them vent.

If they do have a plan, the more detailed and specific it is, the higher the likelyhood they are serious and you need to escalate the situation by calling 911. Using the above pill example, if you continue to ask and the say the will be taking the whole bottle of aspirin, they've counted the pills, they say they just went to the store and bought a bottle of vodka to take the pills with, they know exactly when, what they'll be wearing, etc. It's probably a serious threat.

Talking to these people can be very emotionally draining. For the crisis center, weekends and evenings were always the worst, as the doctors didn't want to be bothered by their cronic patients and always gave them the crisis number to call after hours. After awhile you got to recognize the real threats from the cronics.

Whatever you do, don't let her draw her into her downward spiral. In reality, there is nothing you can do to help her if she isn't willing or able to help herself.
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Postby geospyder » Fri May 06, 2011 10:48 pm

maryanimal wrote:Was she diagnosed with only BiPolar? Is she also schizoprenic? I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. I wish I could help you in some way, but you'll be in my thoughts and prayers. (((geospyder)))


At first they thought she was bipolar but the latest diagnosis is that she is BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Without meds she goes through mood swings extremely fast. She is 40 this year and lives in Nebraska. Ex-husband number two is moving to the same city in about a month. He plans to provide her with a place to stay so she does have a semi-support system.
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Postby moonrise » Fri May 06, 2011 11:26 pm

I think I recall reading about some patients taking meds for bipolar or depression etc. The article said they had taken the drugs for a period of time, a year or so perhaps, and then stopped taking the medication and they were better (improved)

Maybe you're friend would be willing to try (Western) medication if the above is accurate.
She might stay with the drugs or use them for a 'doctor approved' temporary period of time. It could be worth giving a try...maybe the initial nudge she needs?

I'd try to call the aunt also!! Team up with her...strength in numbers, ya know...

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Postby maryanimal » Fri May 06, 2011 11:30 pm

geospyder wrote:
maryanimal wrote:Was she diagnosed with only BiPolar? Is she also schizoprenic? I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. I wish I could help you in some way, but you'll be in my thoughts and prayers. (((geospyder)))


At first they thought she was bipolar but the latest diagnosis is that she is BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Without meds she goes through mood swings extremely fast. She is 40 this year and lives in Nebraska. Ex-husband number two is moving to the same city in about a month. He plans to provide her with a place to stay so she does have a semi-support system.


Sounds like my estranged husbands ex-wife. We were contantly in contact with the kids' school psychologist. She said she couldn't tell us her thoughts and observatiions about Brenda (the ex) however, as she left her file cabinet open, and as she was leaving the room, she said she can't do anything about someone sneaking a peek at her and the boys' file. It read: Brenda exhibits, BPD, narcissism, bipolar tendencies, and a laundry list of other things. This isn't ethical, however she knew what we were going through with his sick woman.

she said if she ever needed documents explaining her finding regarding the ex, she'd help us anyway she could.

Getting back on track, I know what you're going through. At least she's on meds at times. Brenda would "never put poisons in her body", but she smoked pot/cigs and drank like a fish.

Anyway, I pray the best for you and your family.
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Postby maryanimal » Fri May 06, 2011 11:41 pm

moonrise wrote:I think I recall reading about some patients taking meds for bipolar or depression etc. The article said they had taken the drugs for a period of time, a year or so perhaps, and then stopped taking the medication and they were better (improved)

Maybe you're friend would be willing to try (Western) medication if the above is accurate.
She might stay with the drugs or use them for a 'doctor approved' temporary period of time. It could be worth giving a try...maybe the initial nudge she needs?

I'd try to call the aunt also!! Team up with her...strength in numbers, ya know...

((((MA))))


Some times moonrise, I want to grab her by the shoulders and shake her hard. The frustration eats at me. If she does decide to finally do what she wants, then I'll mourn her loss, but in the same breath I'll hate her for not accepting help! I'd tell her what a coward she was, then tell her how much I loved her.
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Postby mdmf007 » Fri May 06, 2011 11:48 pm

I love snark, but know this isnt the topic for it. Being there for her is the best thing you can do, and in person if possible. I had a life long Bipolar friend who would go months sometimes years with no issues then for no apparent reason it seems the whole world would fall out from under them and nothing but despair would set in.

Another friend of ours would prescribe him meds to help level him out, but he would feel "off" with no better description to go with it. I would actually go as far as putting his meds in his dinner - thats how desperate to help him we would get. He would get so destructive its ridiculous. 2 or 3 DUI's in a month, fights in bars, cutting, Sherrif would call me to collect him up when they find him passed out on the beach. I even went as far as flying to New Orleans when he ended up there drunk, homeless, in jail for disorderly conduct etc.

When I put a family together and could not drop what I was doing to bail him out it got worse. He was finally found dead on a beach at 40 years old, broke, BAC of .42 full of Vicodin, and other pills. So much potential. When it was going good, he could make 4-500K a year and spend it all. When it was low, he would live in a tent even though he has a house, not shower for weeks, eat scraps from dumpsters and drink all day.

So - my advice is to simply be there for them. If you cant do it enlist other friends or even call the numbers listed above. There is a myriad of help out there.

good luck

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Postby theCryptofishist » Sat May 07, 2011 5:10 am

maryanimal wrote:I'd tell her what a coward she was, then tell her how much I loved her.

Maybe she is a coward. Maybe she's lived in so much pain for so long that she just can't take it any more. I prefer the latter. The less judgment you can hold the better.
Not easy.
Maybe she's even brave for having lasted so long. Standing up and shouting defiance into the teeth of the gale is hard work.
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Postby delle » Sat May 07, 2011 5:22 am

How heavy this thread makes my heart.

There is such an overwhelmingly painful helplessness that soaks to the core of anyone faced with a loved one’s struggle. You grasp at anything to help keep the person concerned afloat… but as JK says, your grasping does nothing in helping the person whose only goal is to sink. You cannot hold up a dead weight for long. They have to want to learn to swim themselves..

For all of you living this terrible reality, I send you strength, love and all my empathy. Small potatoes, I know. I’m at a bit of a loss to offer more.

Having used the Suicide hotline service recently enough for my son, I was amazed to discover how effective they were in guiding me through the steps I should take. How to talk with him; to discern his level of intent; to convince him to action (OTHER than the one he’d settled on). How to get him safe, and get him help.

Surprisingly, they offered to call an ambulance to ensure he made it to the hospital if I did not feel I could get him to go willingly. Fortunately, this wasn’t necessary in our case. I wonder if this was offered up only because he was a minor, and they were speaking with his guardian. Perhaps you can look into that.

At some point tho, you may be looking at what you can do for yourself; her son; her loved ones. This sort of damage unfortunately radiates out to touch all who love her the most, and at some point it is important to remember that maybe they are the ones who might benefit most from support and intervention if she is unwilling to release her hold on the idea and submitting to the roller-coaster that is “finding the right medsâ€
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Postby delle » Sat May 07, 2011 5:23 am

theCryptofishist wrote:The less judgment you can hold the better.
Not easy.
Maybe she's even brave for having lasted so long. Standing up and shouting defiance into the teeth of the gale is hard work.



This.

Definitely this!!!!
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Postby neon tetra » Sat May 07, 2011 8:47 am

Natural CAN work, but it takes time & the person still needs support.

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Postby goathead » Sat May 07, 2011 1:37 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: Standing up and shouting defiance into the teeth of the gale is hard work.


+1
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Sat May 07, 2011 1:52 pm

@Jkisha...i am very sorry....i was the one that found my best friend and ex-brother in law.


it still affects me every day in one way or another.


mary, you obviously care deeply for this person, and it is truly amazing what one week of observation and celexa will do. She may hate you at first, but sometimes you have to drag people or force them to do what is needed.


it's better that she temporarily hate you than be permanently gone. Do whatever it takes to get her to seek AT LEAST professional counseling.

good luck...you have a big heart, i can tell all the way across country.
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Postby Elorrum » Sat May 07, 2011 3:02 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:... it is truly amazing what one week of observation and celexa will do. She may hate you at first, but sometimes you have to drag people or force them to do what is needed.

so true. in that sort of misery one loses ability to see how that may be a temporary event, or what form a solution might take.
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Postby Foxfur » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:47 am

Don't wait. Don't ever fucking wait.

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Postby Sail Man » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:52 pm

Foxfur wrote:Don't wait. Don't ever fucking wait.

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The last way you want to hold a loved one is as a pallbearer.

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Ladies and Gentleman. The messages doesn't get any plainer then that. Take heed, and keep an eye out for each other, loved ones, and families.

Sometimes the signs are so subtle they can be over-looked, even to the pro's.

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Postby Jax Dee » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:43 pm

I am bipolar and thanks to the patience and love of my family and friends, I am alive and happy and healthy. Bless you maryanimal for being a support to this person. You will never know what a difference I am sure you make in her life. Having said that though, being a support for someone like this is also a strain on your own health. Give of yourself but only what you can spare and try not to make her problems your problems. There is only so much you can do.

I have literally been on every single bipolar med except two. I have had life-threatenng side-effects on almost all of them. I am currently living unmedicated, and have been for almost 6 years. It is very hard but it can be done. If your friend is truly against meds tell her you'll help her do it without meds. It is rigorous though. You must regiment everything in your life. You MUST have a regular schedule that you follow like a religion. You must have a great support network to catch you when you fall.

I highly recommend Mary Ellen Copeland's "Living with Depression and Manic Depression", it is a workbook for bipolar disorder. See link.

http://www.mentalhealthrecovery.com/

I am here for you to talk or ask questions btw. PM me any time.
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Postby ibdave » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:03 pm

MA, ask your friend if she take's Ambien for sleep. I tried that stuff a few times and on day 3or4 I get all moody and scares the shit out of me the thoughts I have had. :shock: :shock: :roll:
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Postby jkisha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:16 pm

In some circumstances suicide might be considered an act of bravery. No one will ever know the pain that someone who has committed suicide may have released themselves from. Because friends are left in pain, it helps to consider the act as one of cowardice. Not sure that's either fair or objective. I also find it interesting that nobody ever thinks it appropriate to be supportive of someone that wants to commit suicide. If i were in that situation, I would rather die in the arms of a supportive friend than die alone.
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