What does BRC LLC do for the event?

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Postby Clar-i-ty » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:48 pm

1durphul wrote:
Clar-i-ty wrote:
1durphul wrote:
Sic Pup wrote:
1durphul wrote:Simple math, with simple and obvious results.

- pay minimum wage to locals for 2 days of work. 400-600 hours x 7/hr = a grand total expenditure of $2,100-$2,800.


Or not. :wink:


Lol, my bad $2800-$4200 still not bank breakers.


OK, add on to that workman's comp and other liability insurance, payroll tax, the expense of doing the payroll and the expense of getting the money to people. Add about 30% to your math tea-bagger.


You know what, let's assume that five of them gets run over and sue the BRC LLC for $20k each and win. $110,000 is still not a bank breaker for their budget considering the importance of the entry process to the events functioning.


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Postby Rice » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:57 pm

1durphul wrote:
Clar-i-ty wrote:
1durphul wrote:
Sic Pup wrote:
1durphul wrote:Simple math, with simple and obvious results.

- pay minimum wage to locals for 2 days of work. 400-600 hours x 7/hr = a grand total expenditure of $2,100-$2,800.


Or not. :wink:


Lol, my bad $2800-$4200 still not bank breakers.


OK, add on to that workman's comp and other liability insurance, payroll tax, the expense of doing the payroll and the expense of getting the money to people. Add about 30% to your math tea-bagger.


You know what, let's assume that five of them gets run over and sue the BRC LLC for $20k each and win. $110,000 is still not a bank breaker for their budget considering the importance of the entry process to the events functioning.


you callous prick! I know several people that have gotten hurt while working gate. People who have volunteered to help you lazy fuckers get in. Internal bleeding, broken feet, arms, bruises. Stupid participants, not listening to instructions - hurting people, not giving a fuck!

Gate, Perimeter, Exodus are all staffed by volunteers... Try doing something other than bitching!
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Postby jkisha » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:01 pm

1durphul wrote:
jkisha wrote:Their budget and how they spend it is none of your business. Larry invented the event and whatever he can make off of it more power to him. If you don't like how your ticket money is being spent, don't buy a ticket and don't go.

JK


Do you need a Kool-Aid refill? Glug glug.


LOL not at all. :D I know how much profit I want my company to make and I charge accordingly. It's none of anybody's business how much we charge for the services we provide. It someone doesn't feel are rates work for them, they have the option of going else where. Don't see how BM is any different. If I begrudged how much money Larry was pulling out of the event, I have the same option of not going.

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Postby Jerome Templaugh » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:04 pm

In clinical psychology and psychiatry, an unrealistic, exaggerated, or rigidly held sense of entitlement may be considered a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder.

Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
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Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:05 pm

stretch80 wrote:
1durphul wrote:

You know what, let's assume that five of them gets run over and sue the BRC LLC for $20k each and win. $110,000 is still not a bank breaker for their budget considering the importance of the entry process to the events functioning.


you callous prick! I know several people that have gotten hurt while working gate. People who have volunteered to help you lazy fuckers get in. Internal bleeding, broken feet, arms, bruises. Stupid participants, not listening to instructions - hurting people, not giving a fuck!

Gate, Perimeter, Exodus are all staffed by volunteers... Try doing something other than bitching!


Yes, let's not question anything because our Kool-Aid came in barrel size.

glug glug.

Perhaps fewer drivers would be so crazy if they hadn't just spent 5 hours getting to the inspection point. I could be wrong though. I mean, making this a more orderly thing might actually result in fewer injuries if drivers are less frustrated/angry/whatever.
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Postby Jerome Templaugh » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:07 pm

In a casual sense, the term "entitlement" refers to a notion or belief that one (or oneself) is deserving of some particular reward or benefit.
if given without deeper legal or principled cause, the term is often given with pejorative connotation (e.g. a "sense of entitlement").
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Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:08 pm

jkisha wrote:
1durphul wrote:
jkisha wrote:Their budget and how they spend it is none of your business. Larry invented the event and whatever he can make off of it more power to him. If you don't like how your ticket money is being spent, don't buy a ticket and don't go.

JK


Do you need a Kool-Aid refill? Glug glug.


LOL not at all. :D I know how much profit I want my company to make and I charge accordingly. It's none of anybody's business how much we charge for the services we provide. It someone doesn't feel are rates work for them, they have the option of going else where. Don't see how BM is any different. If I begrudged how much money Larry was pulling out of the event, I have the same option of not going.

JK


I've said multiple times in this thread that I don't care about the profit. By don't care, I mean I don't care if they make 10 million in profit. I'm just not willing to volunteer for a for profit corporation. And because that profit is derived from ticket money, the participants should have some expectation that their concerns, and things that cause them great inconvenience and can be fixed for a low cost, will be fixed. The expectation is NOT unreasonable.
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Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:09 pm

Jerome Templaugh wrote:In clinical psychology and psychiatry, an unrealistic, exaggerated, or rigidly held sense of entitlement may be considered a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder.

Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
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Re: What does BRC LLC do for the event?

Postby Eric » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:21 pm

1durphul wrote:BRC LLC originally came into existence out of a need for an organized structure that the BLM/LEO's could interface with.

But what are they actually doing for the money we pay them annually?


To answer your first question- they do the same thing they've always done. Work with the BLM on permits & getting everything in order, and all the ground work to get the city infrastructure up & take it down (like those potties that are required for BMan to happen), and to make sure that the volunteers that you disdain so freely are there to run the airport, the medic tents, the rangers, the gate, the perimeter....

If there was no LLC there would be no event. Period. The BLM would never allow 60,000 people to just show up & party out there. Juplaya is already on their radar as it gets bigger, it may need to change in the near future as well.

Don't like it? Don't go. Seriously. It's not a corporation, you're not a shareholder, the only way you have any input in the LLC is it to either not buy a ticket so they don't get your money or volunteer and work to change it from within.

You've already said that you're too busy to volunteer (typical), so don't buy the ticket. Its pretty much your only option.
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Postby Rice » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:26 pm

Thanks Eric!

I agree 100% with you.
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Re: What does BRC LLC do for the event?

Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:31 pm

Eric wrote:It's not a corporation, you're not a shareholder, the only way you have any input in the LLC is it to either not buy a ticket so they don't get your money or volunteer and work to change it from within.


What do you think that C in LLC stands for. I'll give you a hint: Corporation and C both start with the same letter.
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Re: What does BRC LLC do for the event?

Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:38 pm

Eric wrote:
Don't like it? Don't go. Seriously. It's not a corporation, you're not a shareholder, the only way you have any input in the LLC is it to either not buy a ticket so they don't get your money or volunteer and work to change it from within.

You've already said that you're too busy to volunteer (typical), so don't buy the ticket. Its pretty much your only option.


This is such a bullshit "America Love it or leave it" answer. There aren't only two options here. I don't have to be a worshiper of the LLC like most of the people in this thread. I also don't have to hate it. I don't hate the event. I enjoy the event. There are some big issues though, and they do deserve consideration.

Just so we're clear on where I am coming from: I think the BRC LLC does an excellent job of minding the terms of their BLM contract. But the BLM isn't the only one they have a contract with. They have sold tickets to an event, and that means a reasonable person should have some reasonable expectations about what they have paid for. 5 hour entry lines, in my opinion, is not reasonable. zero wait time, while it would be great, would also be an unreasonable expectation. 1 hour to get in, that is a reasonable expectation.
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Re: What does BRC LLC do for the event?

Postby Rice » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:39 pm

1durphul wrote:
Eric wrote:
If there was no LLC there would be no event. Period. The BLM would never allow 60,000 people to just show up & party out there. Juplaya is already on their radar as it gets bigger, it may need to change in the near future as well.


What do you think that C in LLC stands for. I'll give you a hint: Corporation and C both start with the same letter.


http://afterburn.burningman.com/09/org/ ... ement.html

LLC == Limited Liability Corporation.

Still entitled to use its funds as it see fit. Get over it.

Still responsible for making Burning Man happen.

Volunteer & make some changes. Don't volunteer & bitch. - Whatever.

Yawn
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Re: What does BRC LLC do for the event?

Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:48 pm

stretch80 wrote:http://afterburn.burningman.com/09/org/ ... ement.html

LLC == Limited Liability Corporation.

Still entitled to use its funds as it see fit. Get over it.

Still responsible for making Burning Man happen.

Volunteer & make some changes. Don't volunteer & bitch. - Whatever.

Yawn


I get it, you've joined a cult, you order your Kool-Aid by the tanker. I get it.

Every person who has paid money to BRC LLC to purchase a ticket can have REASONABLE expectations as a result of the BRC LLC accepting their money. Both sides have created a contract once BRC LLC sells the ticket.
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Re: What does BRC LLC do for the event?

Postby Rice » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:54 pm

1durphul wrote:
stretch80 wrote:http://afterburn.burningman.com/09/org/ ... ement.html

LLC == Limited Liability Corporation.

Still entitled to use its funds as it see fit. Get over it.

Still responsible for making Burning Man happen.

Volunteer & make some changes. Don't volunteer & bitch. - Whatever.

Yawn


I get it, you've joined a cult, you order your Kool-Aid by the tanker. I get it.

Every person who has paid money to BRC LLC to purchase a ticket can have REASONABLE expectations as a result of the BRC LLC accepting their money. Both sides have created a contract once BRC LLC sells the ticket.


Alright, I'll bite: What exactly are you expecting for your money??
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Postby Eric » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:03 pm

A LLC is different from a Corporation. The only shareholders in a LLC are the partners- there are no public shares.

The Burning Board are the shareholders. Your ticket doesn't make you a shareholder anymore than buying paper at Staples makes you a shareholder there.

You can also bitch as much as you want, but, like Staples, just because you spent the money doesn't mean they have to listen to you. Like all businesses they do listen, but they have 50,000 voices shouting at them, not just yours, and they have their own agenda that may not mesh with yours.

The LLC does make changes, but they move at a glacial pace, and their changes don't always work wonders (like the new Exodus), but they can't take as long as they want. It's their party.

You are also confusing a grounding in reality with "worshiping the LLC like most people here"

People give you honest answers, but because it's not what you want to hear you accuse everyone else in the thread of "drinking the kool-aid".

I unplonked you a while ago because you were actually making reasonable arguments, even if I didn't always agree with them. Now you're starting to sound like the old one-note troll poster you used to be. *shrug*
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Re: What does BRC LLC do for the event?

Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm

stretch80 wrote:
1durphul wrote:
stretch80 wrote:http://afterburn.burningman.com/09/org/ ... ement.html

LLC == Limited Liability Corporation.

Still entitled to use its funds as it see fit. Get over it.

Still responsible for making Burning Man happen.

Volunteer & make some changes. Don't volunteer & bitch. - Whatever.

Yawn


I get it, you've joined a cult, you order your Kool-Aid by the tanker. I get it.

Every person who has paid money to BRC LLC to purchase a ticket can have REASONABLE expectations as a result of the BRC LLC accepting their money. Both sides have created a contract once BRC LLC sells the ticket.


Alright, I'll bite: What exactly are you expecting for your money??


A reasonable wait time at the gate. As I said, an hour is a reasonable expectation, and it is also entirely possible with proper staffing numbers. If there aren't enough volunteers, the cost (probably around $12k total) for 2-3 days worth of temp workers is not huge or prohibitive considering the benefit to the ticket holders.

An unreasonable expectation would be expecting no wait, instant inspection and entry.
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Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:10 pm

Eric wrote:A LLC is different from a Corporation. The only shareholders in a LLC are the partners- there are no public shares.
...

I unplonked you a while ago because you were actually making reasonable arguments, even if I didn't always agree with them. Now you're starting to sound like the old one-note troll poster you used to be. *shrug*


Well, this is a fairly narrow topic thread and I started it and am posting a lot in it. I assure you I can and do participate in other threads on other topics without talking about these things. The ticket issues this week were irritating, but honestly not the biggest deal in the world to me. I don't want to pay $320 for a ticket, but I can make the finances work if I need to.

Just because a corporation is private doesn't mean it isn't a corporation. It just means it doesn't have to file annual public reports with shareholders and the SEC.
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Postby FIGJAM » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:16 pm

It took me 8hrs to get from just north of Empire to greeter's and I don't care.
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Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:18 pm

FIGJAM wrote:It took me 8hrs to get from just north of Empire to greeter's and I don't care.


As somebody who was driving a rental truck with a heavy gas pedal and brake pedal, and needed to stay behind the wheel for the entire 5 hours, I do care.
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Postby adam link » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:21 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:
Jerome Templaugh wrote:In clinical psychology and psychiatry, an unrealistic, exaggerated, or rigidly held sense of entitlement may be considered a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder.

Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
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Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:43 pm

adam link wrote:...


Ok, guess I need to write a letter to BLM suggesting that the formula I mentioned earlier in this thread be part of the permit requirement. Posting here on the topic is pointless, seeing as the BRC LLC management doesn't read eplaya.

[expected vehicles for the day] x [avg inspection minutes per vehicle] / 60 / 24 = # of lanes that must be open each day.
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maybe on Planet Narcissito

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:46 pm

1 hour to get in, that is a reasonable expectation.



yep, you write that letter, thank you for participating.
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Re: maybe on Planet Narcissito

Postby 1durphul » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:09 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:
1 hour to get in, that is a reasonable expectation.



yep, you write that letter, thank you for participating.


Thanks, I'll word it with extra concern for human life due to backups onto the highway since you've been so nice.
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Postby Eric » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:17 pm

1durphul wrote:Ok, guess I need to write a letter to BLM suggesting that the formula I mentioned earlier in this thread be part of the permit requirement. Posting here on the topic is pointless, seeing as the BRC LLC management doesn't read eplaya.


Absolutely- write the BLM to try to add yet more stipulations to the contract because you don't want to try to make it better except through complaining.

So much easier to try to get someone else to fix it for you.

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Postby jkisha » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:23 pm

LLC = Limited Liability Company

As Eric said, it is NOT a corporation. Though even if it were, it would not be a public corp. And the owners/stock holders/directors would still be entitled to determine how profits are distributed and set the event budget and officers compensation etc.

Still, nobody's business.

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Re: maybe on Planet Narcissito

Postby Clar-i-ty » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:38 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:
1 hour to get in, that is a reasonable expectation.



yep, you write that letter, thank you for participating.


Be sure to let them know ahead of time what kind of vehicle you are driving and identifying marks it may have, so PG&E can give you extra special attention. :twisted:
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Postby TomServo » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:48 pm

1Durful, how many, and which branches have you volunteered with, and when? I want proof!
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Postby Bob » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:54 pm

Two words: Boo. Hoo.
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Re: What does BRC LLC do for the event?

Postby jkisha » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:56 pm

1durphul wrote:
Eric wrote:
Don't like it? Don't go. Seriously. It's not a corporation, you're not a shareholder, the only way you have any input in the LLC is it to either not buy a ticket so they don't get your money or volunteer and work to change it from within.

You've already said that you're too busy to volunteer (typical), so don't buy the ticket. Its pretty much your only option.


This is such a bullshit "America Love it or leave it" answer. There aren't only two options here. I don't have to be a worshiper of the LLC like most of the people in this thread. I also don't have to hate it. I don't hate the event. I enjoy the event. There are some big issues though, and they do deserve consideration.

Just so we're clear on where I am coming from: I think the BRC LLC does an excellent job of minding the terms of their BLM contract. But the BLM isn't the only one they have a contract with. They have sold tickets to an event, and that means a reasonable person should have some reasonable expectations about what they have paid for. 5 hour entry lines, in my opinion, is not reasonable. zero wait time, while it would be great, would also be an unreasonable expectation. 1 hour to get in, that is a reasonable expectation.


Why don't you just sue them for damages caused by your five hour wait, just lake every other red blooded American would. See how far that gets you.

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