The Value of Art and Money and Paul Addis........

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby TomServo » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:51 pm

Ansgard wrote:I love Art, but it saddens me, that people want to put a price on it. Are artists tired of not being paid for doing something?



Was that sarcasm?
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Postby Bob » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:42 am

In the context of Burning Man, I've long thought you *artists* should pay for the privilege. Admin, equipment, cleanup costs, carbon offsets, whatever. On top of buying a ticket, of course. The cost of your monument by itself is irrelevant, unless maybe someone wants to copy it some later year and needs help with an accurate estimate.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:08 pm

Ansgard wrote:I love Art, but it saddens me, that people want to put a price on it. Are artists tired of not being paid for doing something?

Bencia is quite the micro glass center. Fuel costs are through the roof. It can't be cheap to be on San Francisco/San Pablo Bay. I can imagine some possible workman's comp issues, from heat, and moving heavy things. Their families have to eat. Working part time for full time wages and then doing glasswork half time in order to generously gift all that wonder to the community or whatever distribution process they might be following means that there will be less glass, and maybe that without the practice it might not be as good.

Pay the artists. I love brc people doing art for free; I think it's a wonderful model. I don't expect that people can do that as their full-time gig.
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Postby TomServo » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:04 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
Ansgard wrote:I love Art, but it saddens me, that people want to put a price on it. Are artists tired of not being paid for doing something?

Bencia is quite the micro glass center. Fuel costs are through the roof. It can't be cheap to be on San Francisco/San Pablo Bay. I can imagine some possible workman's comp issues, from heat, and moving heavy things. Their families have to eat. Working part time for full time wages and then doing glasswork half time in order to generously gift all that wonder to the community or whatever distribution process they might be following means that there will be less glass, and maybe that without the practice it might not be as good.

Pay the artists. I love brc people doing art for free; I think it's a wonderful model. I don't expect that people can do that as their full-time gig.



Its actually pretty cheap in Benicia, if you live downtown. Were sharing a two bedroom 1920's house for under $800. The glass people can kiss my ass! They got the "House of Toast" evicted in the early 90's. Said we were an eyesore. Good bands came out of that shithole! Monsula, Crimpshrine, Monkey Brittle, Anger Means, the skinflutes aka..Sawhorse..

Sad thing is...investors from Walnut Creek and such, are trying to make Benicia expensive. Thats why half the stores on Main St. are vacant....that and we have enough Arts & Craps stores.
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Postby dadara » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:20 pm

I just realized something which might be pretty interesting concerning the value of art and money.

In 2001 I went for the first time to Burning Man.

Here in the Netherlands hardly anyone ever heard about BM, so we decided to hook up with an American group to go there and got in touch with the Black Rock Gazette. While camping with them I made some drawings for the newspaper and painted a mural. Only now do I realize that only maybe hundred meters or less away another guy, called Banksy, was painting something on the outside wall of the Café.

His mural got thrown away. Somebody took mine home and I know they hung it in their living room.

And I also know that if I would have taken the Banksy mural home I could now pay for everything for my new project (and probably fund some other projects on the Playa as well) by selling it...............

Banksy mural:
Image

my mural:
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Postby Bob » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:39 pm

As I wrote (upthread), we burned it. Sad, because a) DPW wasted so much time priming the plywood and b) someone could have used the wood to build a nice comfy shithouse that winter.
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Postby dadara » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:42 pm

Bob wrote:As I wrote (upthread), we burned it. Sad, because a) DPW wasted so much time priming the plywood and b) someone could have used the wood to build a nice comfy shithouse that winter.


So I really guess I was on the wrong side of the road: I had to prime the wood myself..........
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:30 pm

I like yours better.
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Postby tamarakay » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:09 pm

i like dadara's better. a lot better.
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Re: The Value of Art and Money and Paul Addis........

Postby pattilouhoo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:15 pm

dadara wrote:...serve as an information- and discussion-platform about the value of Art and Money.


Back in 2001 I was a working artist (note: working doesn't = paid) and I was able to create a room in the Maze (voodoo room of regrets) on the playa. The process of creating it and seeing thousands of people interact with it is priceless - but only for me. I did burn the voodoo doll and that also was a thing of beauty for me.

As an artist - even as a graphic designer - I find it difficult to put a price on my work. But money is the vocabulary we use to describe value. US culture, capitalist culture, values money above all else (second only to freedom, which money facilitates). So when something of value is destroyed we have trouble expressing compensation outside the bounds of money (and in the case of Addis, jail or removal of freedom). The "art world" outside of Burning Man is a strange place, strangest most of all for the artist who is nothing more than a commodity from whom others can make money, even when the artist themselves cannot make a living. The value of art is often determined by hype, and is randomly determined by a handful of people in positions of influence or power.

On a related note, view an interesting documentary about the value of art like that of Banksy called "Exit Thru the Gift Shop" http://www.hulu.com/watch/206459/exit-t ... -gift-shop.

dadara - I look forward to seeing your next project, as your work is quite beautiful.
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Postby Herring » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:05 am

I would be shocked if anyone wanted to pay me for my art, but I would be devastated if someone destroyed something I labored over to contribute to the festival. It would be like receiving a hand-knit sweater from your grandmother, and then burning it in front of her. Take a shit on my heart, why don't you?

As for art that's "meant to be destroyed" -- the destruction, or burn, is part of the performance. You don't go on stage during Hamlet and start singing show tunes. You don't attend a movie screening and spoil the ending during the opening credits. Don't usurp someone elses art, create your own.
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Re: The Value of Art and Money and Paul Addis........

Postby dadara » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:23 pm

pattilouhoo wrote:
The "art world" outside of Burning Man is a strange place, strangest most of all for the artist who is nothing more than a commodity from whom others can make money, even when the artist themselves cannot make a living. The value of art is often determined by hype, and is randomly determined by a handful of people in positions of influence or power.



King Adz just wrote a post on the Art as Money blog about Michel van Rijn, who sounds like a very fascinating guy. Here's a quote from him which relates a lot to what you state above:

‘Artists are plugged like records. The dealers bring them into auctions and they hype the price; they organize press about the work. Nowadays it’s not that you have to prove you are an artist, the outside world has to prove that you are not an artist. If you are in capable commercial hands they hype the fuck out of you. Look at Jeff Koons, look at Damien Hurst. It’s all a repetition of something, it’s nothing new. If you hype it well then you get away with it, and you make the money. Which is all it is about in the end. There should be a fair rewards system. I’m talking about the big major dealers who have absolutely no morals or scruples, and they go all the way. On one side it’s the most beautiful world out there and on the other it’s a cut-throat, murderous place. It’s worse than the drugs and the second hand car market put together.’

more from the post here:
http://blog.artasmoney.com/art-as-money/thief-smuggler-collector-curator/
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Paul Addis did not burn something that was going to burned..

Postby andy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:59 am

anyway. If I break into your wedding reception and take all the food, and my friends and I eat it, could I claim that no damage was done because the food was prepared for no other purpose than to be eaten.

What he did is selfishly attempt to steal the experience of those who were coming all the way to BRC. There was no profit in it, just the desire to self-aggrandize. No different than the vandal who paints a swear word on a building. Ha ha, I made you unhappy, therefore I exercised power over you, therefore I am greater than you are.

Don't confuse the art to be burned with the act of burning the art.

Quite a few years ago, I was standing in line to see E.T. Some jerk leaned out of a car and yelled "ET dies in the end!" and laughed as he and his friend sped off. We in line all groaned angrily. Even though it turned out he was lying, it didn't matter - he vandalized our experience. Of course, Addis' supporters would correctly point out that we would have seen the ending in two hours anyway, so no harm was done - the ending was intended to be revealed.
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Re: Paul Addis did not burn something that was going to burn

Postby dadara » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:38 am

andy wrote:anyway. If I break into your wedding reception and take all the food, and my friends and I eat it, could I claim that no damage was done because the food was prepared for no other purpose than to be eaten.


I like the food comparison. It reminds me of this quote: 'Fame is a by-product of making something that means something. Just like shit is a by-product of eating: You don't go to a restaurant and order a meal because you want to have a shit.'

(Unfortunately I don't remember anymore who said that first.)
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