The Value of Art and Money and Paul Addis........

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

The Value of Art and Money and Paul Addis........

Postby dadara » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:33 am

As part of my Pool of Plenty project ( if you want to know more about that one please check the post on the ePlaya here:
http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?t=38225) I started a blog, which would not only show the development of the project, but more importantly, would serve as an information- and discussion-platform about the value of Art and Money.

And since today sees the first post on the Art-As-Money blog that covers Burning Man I thought I'd post this in a separate thread .
It's not meant to trigger discussion about Burning Man and Paul Addis (I have the feeling most has been said and done about that already), but meant to take a closer look at the value of art, which is made to be destroyed in the first place, but then gets destroyed by someone else...........

http://blog.artasmoney.com/2011/01/02/burn-baby-burn-but-not-too-early/

After all, raising questions about the value of Art and Money will be one of the main topics of my new Pool of Plenty project.

Yours Burningly, Dreamingly, and Bankingly

Dadara

CEO and Founder
Exchanghibition Bank
http://www.exchanghibitionbank.com

Image
dadara
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:00 am

Postby dadara » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:38 am

I am also posting this to see if I can find more writers and bloggers from overseas (which for me means the United States, since I am from the Netherlands).

Artists, visionaries, writers, philosophers, economists. As long as they have an opinion on the combination of art and money and can write......

if you want to get a better idea what it's all about, then check out the blog a bit. Obviously a gift-economy is a good starting point for a discussion about the value of art and money :-)
dadara
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:00 am

Postby Elderberry » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:32 pm

Art-As-Money? Hmmm....what about Money-As-Art?

JK
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
 
Posts: 12625
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe

Postby dadara » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:41 pm

jkisha wrote:Art-As-Money? Hmmm....what about Money-As-Art?

JK


Is this enough Money-As-Art for you :) ? :

Image

Image

Of course Burning-Money-as-Art is also a possibility ! :

http://blog.artasmoney.com/2010/12/21/burning-1-000-000-brittish-pounds/
dadara
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:00 am

Postby Bob » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:04 pm

Dadara, your apparent understanding of the Addis incident and vandalism at Burning Man in general, based on how you frame it here and on your blog, is so extremely naive I'd be willing to pay you ten bucks not to show up.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
User avatar
Bob
 
Posts: 6762
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh

Postby Simon of the Playa » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:40 pm

i still swear, i saw a spark and three dirty hippies behind the sandy knoll...


and then there's the whole single match theory, it just doesnt add up.
fuck you, it's magic


Less Hanky, More Panky™

A gift for the Playa

THIS YEARS POSTERS

2015 posters
User avatar
Simon of the Playa
 
Posts: 15449
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Rochester, Nevada.
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins

Postby dadara » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:52 am

Bob wrote:Dadara, your apparent understanding of the Addis incident and vandalism at Burning Man in general, based on how you frame it here and on your blog, is so extremely naive I'd be willing to pay you ten bucks not to show up.


The main reason I used the Addis incident on this blog which deals with the value of art and money, is that vandalism of art always gets looked at in a financial light? 'How much financial damage was done?'

But what was the REAL damage done?

And I feel the way it was handled only dealt with the financial aspect: 'He caused more than thirty thousand bucks in damage, so let's put him in jail.' End of story.

I know vandalism at Burning Man is an increasing problem and maybe BM could have used this incident to make the community more aware of that.

I also enclosed some pics of projects I brought from overseas in the past decade (and as you've probably read in the post I am working very hard on a new one), mainly to illustrate the fact that I think that paying me ten bucks not to show up because of a post on a blog might be equally naive :)

Image
Image
Image
dadara
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:00 am

Postby oneeyeddick » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:37 pm

Image
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
User avatar
oneeyeddick
 
Posts: 5589
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:08 pm
Location: Probably in your pants
Burning Since: 1996

Postby Bob » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:05 pm

Addis pretty much played the "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?" card, too.

Do you know who I am? I'm the guy Larry pays ten bucks a year not to bring my 350-foot Black Dick project to fruition.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
User avatar
Bob
 
Posts: 6762
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh

Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:11 pm

E-playa is a cesspit of Snarkatopia just now. Take nothing seriously for the duration.
User avatar
Ugly Dougly
 
Posts: 16503
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Burning Since: 1996

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:22 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:E-playa is a cesspit of Snarkatopia just now.

Only since you dropped back in.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri


Get a Taint, you pathetic cur!
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 39895
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Postby dadara » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:29 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:E-playa is a cesspit of Snarkatopia just now.


For me it's actually Dreamyourtopia: Since I don't live in the States this is one of the few ways to reach out to the BM community and let them know about my new Dream.

And those ten bucks in Snarkatopia that 'Larry pays every year not to bring my 350-foot Black Dick project to fruition' could in Dreamyourtopia help my fundraising to make this new Dream become a Reality............
dadara
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:00 am

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:30 pm

Image
"10 principles? you cant HANDLE the 10 principles..."
User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
 
Posts: 2973
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

Postby Bob » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:28 pm

Sorry, I'm still saving up to buy 350 yards of black Pleather and a few tanks of helium.

I figure the true cost (or value, as you put it) of actions such as Addis' is in weeding out people who don't like their art suddenly devalued by premature burning, theft, etc., such as has happened with some of my friends who no longer do anything at Burning Man. I believe Addis' argument was that as artist/participant he was as entitled as anyone to dispose of art at the event as he saw fit, despite the most basic ethic of Burning Man being not interfering in the immediate experience of other participants -- eg setting fire to their art over their heads. Of course the org ironically keeps spending money on people who could never possibly pay the true costs of their participation, and cooking the books, so don't look too hard at the afterburn calculations.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
User avatar
Bob
 
Posts: 6762
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh

Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:55 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:E-playa is a cesspit of Snarkatopia just now.

Only since you dropped back in.

Thanks, sweetie. So you think Dadara has some creative ideas too?
User avatar
Ugly Dougly
 
Posts: 16503
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Burning Since: 1996

Postby oneeyeddick » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:25 pm

If there is a 350 foot Dick being built, I want in on it.

I will donate my time and labor, and I swear I will try to not catch it on fire early.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
User avatar
oneeyeddick
 
Posts: 5589
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:08 pm
Location: Probably in your pants
Burning Since: 1996

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:11 pm

Bob wrote:I figure the true cost (or value, as you put it) of actions such as Addis' is in weeding out people who don't like their art suddenly devalued by premature burning, theft, etc., such as has happened with some of my friends who no longer do anything at Burning Man. I believe Addis' argument was that as artist/participant he was as entitled as anyone to dispose of art at the event as he saw fit, despite the most basic ethic of Burning Man being not interfering in the immediate experience of other participants -- eg setting fire to their art over their heads.

Indeed
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri


Get a Taint, you pathetic cur!
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 39895
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Postby Isotopia » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:28 pm

I'm with Bob.

That link read like art history paper written by a sophomore at an over-priced, New England all-women's college.
User avatar
Isotopia
 
Posts: 2835
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Postby Kinetik V » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:50 pm

I knew it was coming.... A classic Miss Iso post. I knew as soon as the alternate word for the ultimate BM ass got posted to expect it.

The best part is she speaks the truth...as always.
Kinetic V
~~~~~~
When you finally let go, only then will you learn how to live.
I bring order to chaos. And I bring chaos to those who deserve it.
User avatar
Kinetik V
 
Posts: 1643
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:43 am
Location: Fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada
Burning Since: 2002
Camp Name: Sanctuary West

Postby BAS » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:57 pm

I actually support the "Paul Who?" patch that OED posted a picture of.

(Hey, if Paul meant the premature burning as art, fame shouldn't matter for him, right? And if he DID do it for fame, the worst thing for him would be to be forgotten.)

Anyway, I see it as a matter between the law, Paul, and the BMORG.


Those "zero dollars" are cool looking, though.

IIRC, Andy Warhol was all about the line between art and commercialism, so he might be a good place to start.


(And, having already contributed more than enough to a thread I didn't plan on even posting in, I'm out of here.)
"Nothing is withheld from us which we have conceived to do.
Do things that have never been done."
--Russell Kirsch
User avatar
BAS
 
Posts: 4237
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:46 pm
Location: Wisconsin
Burning Since: 2006

Postby fbcota » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:30 am

I want to be a sophomore at a woman's college:

Had a girl join us at our burn barrels last year trying to claim that their art project was worth $3 million. I will not name the project, but she based her claim on the labor involved, the supposed stature of the artists and the quality of the art.

I however contested that her art had very little value beyond material costs and what the market demanded. The time contributed by the volunteer artists did not in any form equate to a 1 to 1 exchange in real dollar value. And the market certainly wouldn't bear purchasing her piece for that price. Furthermore her entire evaluation was based on the "replacement cost, should it be damaged in shipping" for insurance purposes.

Her "insurance argument" really bothered me. It seemed almost as if she would have preferred her art to have been damaged or destroyed as to collect a pay day from it.

So, what is the value of the man? Does it end up being the gross revenue of the festival? Is it the cost of material? Do the volunteer man hours factor into that? Do any of us care?

Or,....

If Banksy tagged the man on Friday do you think the org would still burn it?

Rambling, yes,.... Find something properly snarky to say. Or give some heavy idealogical argument refuting something I just said or answering one of my questions.

Ohh, one more question. What does contemplating the value of art and money achieve?

(30k seems like a fair value for the repairs. I find the whole thing hilarious, minus the length of the prison term for our unnamed misguided faux high minded prankster)

(oooh, edit,... instead of prison we should have just burnt his house down a couple days before a planned move. HILARIOUS)
User avatar
fbcota
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:30 pm
Location: Reno, and Tahoe, and Somewere else

Postby dadara » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:11 am

fbcota wrote:Ohh, one more question. What does contemplating the value of art and money achieve?



I am glad I am not the only sophomore at an over-priced, New England all-women's college (I wish)..........

Anyway.

The reason I think it makes sense to think about the value of art is that in our society everything seems to be judged by its financial value alone. And it also seems that something that according to me has mainly other values (spiritual, social, philosophical etc) is difficult to handle.The result is that art is being judged increasingly by its financial worth.

I think it's time money should have more values than just financial ones as well. (as for instance the Ithaca hours: http://blog.artasmoney.com/2010/11/18/time-is-money-but-is-it-art-as-well-2/)

And in my opinion Burning Man can either be used as a vacation void of currency or a place to rethink values.

My two cents.

For the rest I won't spend too much time here in Snarkatopia. I need to paint some more money (make millions)
Image
dadara
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:00 am

Postby Bob » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:11 am

fbcota wrote:If Banksy tagged the man on Friday do you think the org would still burn it?


The org flew Banksy out to tag the back wall of the Cafe back in 2001 (see here).

After the event, nobody wanted souvenirs, and a fellow Brit with DPW, who built the Cafe and wasn't exactly enamoured with the tagging, burned every trace of it. Pity, because it was half-decent plywood.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
User avatar
Bob
 
Posts: 6762
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh

Postby TomServo » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:27 am

The fact that whats his name tried to burn down Grace Cathedral after his little burning man stunt, clearly shows he's an attention whore. I prefer not to think about the little shit, rather the miracle that DPW pulled out of their ass, after the premature ejaculation.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..
User avatar
TomServo
 
Posts: 6136
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:17 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: BloodBath&Beyond

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:46 am

TomServo wrote:The fact that whats his name tried to burn down Grace Cathedral after his little burning man stunt, clearly shows he's an attention whore.

Not if he's seriously mentally ill. Well, I suppose he could still be an "attention whore" but that's very possibly a manifestation of illness rather than basic character. (Basic character gets hidden under layers of all sorts of "off-ness" in cases of serious mental illness.)
Teh problem of calling someone who is mentally ill an "attention whore" is that it minimizes the problem and makes someone who might respond well to treatment and basically become someone who can contribute to his "communities" and keeps him as an ass hanging around their necks. (Sorry, Da Mule.) And $30,000 could have bought a lot of medical treatment. Not to mention that court costs and prison costs and...
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri


Get a Taint, you pathetic cur!
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 39895
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Postby EspressoDude » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:54 am

theCryptofishist wrote: And $30,000 could have bought a lot of medical treatment. ...


(snark)

$30k would keep someone 'medicated' for a long time... 10 pounds of high grade weed

(end snark)
Is 4 shots enuff? no foo-foo drinks; just naked Espresso
Tactical Espresso Service http://home.comcast.net/~espressocamp/
Field Artillery Tractor
FOGBANK, GOD OF HELLFIRE
BLACK ROCK f/x Trojan Horse,Anubis,2014Temple
burn shit and blow shit up
User avatar
EspressoDude
 
Posts: 4821
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: the first Vancouver

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:11 am

Hell, if the Borg gives me ten pounds of weed, i promise not to burn the fucker early too..

Please send it UPS, fedex are a bunch of thieves.
fuck you, it's magic


Less Hanky, More Panky™

A gift for the Playa

THIS YEARS POSTERS

2015 posters
User avatar
Simon of the Playa
 
Posts: 15449
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Rochester, Nevada.
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins

Postby TomServo » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:12 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
TomServo wrote:The fact that whats his name tried to burn down Grace Cathedral after his little burning man stunt, clearly shows he's an attention whore.

Not if he's seriously mentally ill. Well, I suppose he could still be an "attention whore" but that's very possibly a manifestation of illness rather than basic character. (Basic character gets hidden under layers of all sorts of "off-ness" in cases of serious mental illness.)
Teh problem of calling someone who is mentally ill an "attention whore" is that it minimizes the problem and makes someone who might respond well to treatment and basically become someone who can contribute to his "communities" and keeps him as an ass hanging around their necks. (Sorry, Da Mule.) And $30,000 could have bought a lot of medical treatment. Not to mention that court costs and prison costs and...


Mentally ill or not, he used his soapbox. Would you excuse Hitler for using his soapbox? my apologies! I hate it when people compare others to hitler,but....
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..
User avatar
TomServo
 
Posts: 6136
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:17 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: BloodBath&Beyond

Postby ygmir » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:15 am

TomServo wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
TomServo wrote:The fact that whats his name tried to burn down Grace Cathedral after his little burning man stunt, clearly shows he's an attention whore.

Not if he's seriously mentally ill. Well, I suppose he could still be an "attention whore" but that's very possibly a manifestation of illness rather than basic character. (Basic character gets hidden under layers of all sorts of "off-ness" in cases of serious mental illness.)
Teh problem of calling someone who is mentally ill an "attention whore" is that it minimizes the problem and makes someone who might respond well to treatment and basically become someone who can contribute to his "communities" and keeps him as an ass hanging around their necks. (Sorry, Da Mule.) And $30,000 could have bought a lot of medical treatment. Not to mention that court costs and prison costs and...


Mentally ill or not, he used his soapbox. Would you excuse Hitler for using his soapbox? my apologies! I hate it when people compare others to hitler,but....


Godwins law...........
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 27139
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Postby TomServo » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:15 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:Hell, if the Borg gives me ten pounds of weed, i promise not to burn the fucker early too..

Please send it UPS, fedex are a bunch of thieves.


Maybe Burning Man should switch to a "I promise not to burn the man early" economy.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..
User avatar
TomServo
 
Posts: 6136
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:17 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: BloodBath&Beyond

Next

Return to Politics & Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest