Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, djs

Exchange camp ideas, find places to perform, announce your events, etc.

Postby cowboyangel » Mon Jul 05, 2004 5:43 pm

dirtygirl wrote:I would like for you to meet a friend of mine. She will not attend the Burn this year in body however her spirit lives in in many of her friends and on the playa itself. We will be there in large numbers, the memory of her smile on our minds, the memory of her words in our hearts. We will not forget her.

Meet her here..
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Learn why she will not be on the playa here...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/


thanks Dirtygirl.....also Liz check out

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040712&s=kaplan
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Re: Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, d

Postby Rian Jackson » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:24 pm

lizwiz wrote:
spectabillis wrote:
lizwiz wrote:The purpose of the camp is to promote Jewish Awareness to the Burning Man community at large and to provide a place for Jews to gather.


Are Palestinians invited?


There is no such thing as palestinians today. There are Israelis, there are Jordanians, and there are arabs.

Just like there are no Romans today. Just Italians. (unless you mean the people from the city of Rome).

The term Palestinian left the scene when the British did in the '40s. It was a British term for all the people, Jews and Arabs, that lived in the area that is now Israel and Jordan. The Jews got Israel and the Arabs got Jordan.



Ach, trying to be reasonable. I know I'm coming in waaaaay late on this thread (probably just as well). But here's how my brain has been going. 'Hmmm. Curious. Better see what this is about. Hum. Flame war. It's good I'm keeping my trap shut for once. This camp has some good ideas. But it could be really divisive. [beat] SHE SAID WHAT!?!?! ' Look. I think we can all agree that BM is about radical inclusivity. Now, having a camp Israel could swing either way, but that in itself is dependent upon how CI and other Burners act/react. But NOW you've gone and said that my brothers, sisters, friends, and family don't exist. It hurts. It hurts like the bullet the IDF shot me with, it hurts like the death of my 15 year old Palestinian friend, or the deaths of the other 6 I remember with photos i wear every day around my neck. I thought about doing something specific at BM surrounding it, and decided it was time to leave this one fallow, if only for a week. But tell me, how is wishing a people out of existance any way to find inclusiveness? I search for Israelis (and those affiliated) who are broadminded, with whom i can meet. I hoped your camp would be one. I was thinking about visiting. I guess this is not the case. Because i know that me and my people will NOT be welcome there.
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Postby DVD Burner » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:29 pm

Liz-NOT-wiz. remember that name.



Too bad she was not smart enough to take the advise or even was smart enough to realize her mistake and own up to it.


Not a wiz at all. Not at all.
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Postby madmatt » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:35 pm

I don't think something like this is going to be trouble. The trouble only started when someone took the whole thing and placed it in the context of the current conflict. For once, can we not be so stupid that we can't even mention Israel and its culture without immediately placing it in the bubble of the war? Israel does have a culture and history and all this other great stuff and it would be awesome to have a camp rich in culture and that is joyously expressing it and inviting everyone else to have fun with it too.
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Re: Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, d

Postby madmatt » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:38 pm

spectabillis wrote:Are Palestinians invited?



Shame on you. Are they not allowed to do what they want? They didn't name the camp "insult palestinians by celebrating judaism and their israeli culture" they just want to celebrate judaism and their israeli culture.

There's a samba do brazil camp, are you going to say they can't have their camp celebrating brazillian music and culture because Brazil is burning the rain forest?
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Re: Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, d

Postby madmatt » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:41 pm

DVD Burner wrote: This girl sees nothing she is doing.

Gauranteed problem. Big problem.


You're the one with a problem. If you have a problem with Israel or its politics (I do for exampe), take it up with the government of Israel, not Israelis. What's wrong with you?
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Postby DVD Burner » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:42 pm

The problem is how the poster worded the thread. It's in bad form and her response was in bad taste.

The sooner this point was realized the sooner the problem would have gone away. as it is now, it will never go away because of it.
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Re: Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, d

Postby DVD Burner » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:44 pm

madmatt wrote:
DVD Burner wrote: This girl sees nothing she is doing.

Gauranteed problem. Big problem.


You're the one with a problem. If you have a problem with Israel or its politics (I do for exampe), take it up with the government of Israel, not Israelis. What's wrong with you?


There are pleanty of others on this thread that have said what I have said.
are you saying that Ron, Cowboy angel and the others have something wrong with them too.
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Postby DVD Burner » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:45 pm

either way the point is you and Lizwiz are missing the point and it's just too bad.
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Postby cowboyangel » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:47 pm

madmatt wrote:I don't think something like this is going to be trouble. The trouble only started when someone took the whole thing and placed it in the context of the current conflict. For once, can we not be so stupid that we can't even mention Israel and its culture without immediately placing it in the bubble of the war? Israel does have a culture and history and all this other great stuff and it would be awesome to have a camp rich in culture and that is joyously expressing it and inviting everyone else to have fun with it too.



no need to be insulting madmatt......the simple fact is Israel under it's war criminal Prime Minister has been responsible for tremendous Palestinian suffering and death .......In previous posts I asked the question why not call the camp by some other non-politically charged name......You have to be living in a state of denial to not expect that any time Israel is mentioned, Palestine is mentioned and vice versa. The response of the organizer to deny the name "Palestine" speaks volumes about her understanding, degree of compassion and tollerance. Once again, I refer both Jews and anyone else to Rabbi Michael Lerner's excellent site for a balanced view on the situation at http://www.tikkun.org
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Re: Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, d

Postby Rian Jackson » Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:26 pm

madmatt wrote:
DVD Burner wrote: This girl sees nothing she is doing.

Gauranteed problem. Big problem.


You're the one with a problem. If you have a problem with Israel or its politics (I do for exampe), take it up with the government of Israel, not Israelis. What's wrong with you?



Kanaan, a very wise and well respected Palestinian man, tells me, as we walk what little piece of the road that we can (before the army blockades and snipers come into view) that for people under occupation, everything is political. Eating. Living. Dying. Breathing.

I understand, without explanation, that it is a privilege to be able to choose when we are political and when we are not.

As those who make up the citizenry of oppressive regimes, we are responsible. I hold each American responsible for Iraqi deaths (though that doesn't begin to cover it) I hold Israelis responsible for Palestinian deaths. I also hold many Americans responsible for them. Unless, however, they are like Jonathan, or a handful of other wonderful Israelis who risk their lives and futures for justice, defying their army.

Someone has to be responsible. And the truth is, everyone has a chance to step up and decide whether we are going to help atrocities to continue or not. Who are we going to hold accountable if not the people? G-d? I don't think so....
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Postby Rian Jackson » Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:32 pm

moshe! wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:Israel is associated with spirituality and unfortunately also with brutal occupation, and genocide of Palestinians (Jenin, Shavron and Shatila e.g.)

Genocide?

"gen·o·cide n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group."

Are you kidding? Its this kind of hot air rhetoric that simplifies and dumbs this whole disscussion down into the kind of black/white, good/bad bullshit that both sides crave so much. Palestinians bad, israelis good. Israelis bad, palestinians good. Who are we kidding? Using big bad words like genocide and aparthied get peoples attention even while they have nothing to do with describing the situation at hand. Its like intelectual engine revving. Use facts not fireworks. Or better yet, stop talking about this and lets just focus on somthing we all have in common: Burning Man.
(BTW- human rights watch determined that there never was any large scale loss of life in Jenin)



Please see recent positive references to 'Ethnic Cleansing' in the Knesset and the popular support thereof.
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Postby samtzu » Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:21 pm

Rian wrote:
As those who make up the citizenry of oppressive regimes, we are responsible. I hold each American responsible for Iraqi deaths (though that doesn't begin to cover it) I hold Israelis responsible for Palestinian deaths. I also hold many Americans responsible for them. Unless, however, they are like Jonathan, or a handful of other wonderful Israelis who risk their lives and futures for justice, defying their army.


Sooo... each Iraqi under Saddam was responsible for the killings and disappearances of friends and neighbors (They did nothing). Each Palistinian is responsible for the deaths of innocent children killed by suicide bombers recruited by Palistinian leaders (They did nothing). And each and every American who is not a Native American (and even some who are) and who is living on land once occupied by Native American people is responsible.

We could cover the whole planet with blame... and justification for whatever act or thought or deed against the 'other' that we came up with, simply because we can all prove that we are the 'wronged' and we are allowed revenge.

I certainly hope that we, as sentient primates, can put aside That Beast at Burning Man, forget the wrongs, and come together. Otherwise, we are simply going to be a reflection of the world outside... only with face paint and glow sticks.
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Postby DVD Burner » Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:47 pm

Well no matter what...this thread will always be the worse thread. and I said earlier on this thread that I hoped that this attitude of Lizwiz would disapate before the burn. I said before that I hope her camp was'nt the middle of the thunderdome.


Hey, whatta I know huh? :?


This is a bad thread. It is cursed. All because of ones selfish ways of not recognizing what they are doing wrong. And yes Texas has something to do with it. Maybe the water or the sun or just genetic.
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Postby cowboyangel » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:10 pm

samtzu wrote:Rian wrote:
As those who make up the citizenry of oppressive regimes, we are responsible. I hold each American responsible for Iraqi deaths (though that doesn't begin to cover it) I hold Israelis responsible for Palestinian deaths. I also hold many Americans responsible for them. Unless, however, they are like Jonathan, or a handful of other wonderful Israelis who risk their lives and futures for justice, defying their army.


Sooo... each Iraqi under Saddam was responsible for the killings and disappearances of friends and neighbors (They did nothing). Each Palistinian is responsible for the deaths of innocent children killed by suicide bombers recruited by Palistinian leaders (They did nothing). And each and every American who is not a Native American (and even some who are) and who is living on land once occupied by Native American people is responsible.

We could cover the whole planet with blame... and justification for whatever act or thought or deed against the 'other' that we came up with, simply because we can all prove that we are the 'wronged' and we are allowed revenge.

I certainly hope that we, as sentient primates, can put aside That Beast at Burning Man, forget the wrongs, and come together. Otherwise, we are simply going to be a reflection of the world outside... only with face paint and glow sticks.
:evil:




when you visit the place see the misery first hand then report back here about "responsibility"
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Postby Badger » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:32 pm

Why is this being railroaded into a political discussion?

The point's been made that if you have a problem with the regional politics take it over there or to the politics thread. This thread *IS* about a group of people who are soliciting members for their vision of a camp that they want to see unfold.

Don't like the idea of the camp? 1) don't go 2) stick with your own 3) start something along the lies of what you see *your* vision of the idea being.

In any case some of the sentiments expressed here come as close I can imagine to actually interfering with the Op's online experience. It'd have been a different story if the post had mentioned derogatory expletives towards another group, culture, etc or intents to deliberately exclude others based on national origin and the like. But that wasn't the case.
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Postby Sensei » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:55 am

Here's a quick question: If shit-stirring were a crime, which two people in this thread would receive life sentences without possibility of parole?

Answer: The same two fuckwits who are making me grovel for a plonker.

BRR at his absolute worst couldn't touch these guys. At least we didn't have to trip over him on practically every thread.
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Postby Sensei » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:00 am

Oh, and Lizwiz? I'll be bringing an armload of gifts to your camp.
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CAMP MOSES??

Postby Rian Jackson » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:28 am

samtzu wrote:Rian wrote:
As those who make up the citizenry of oppressive regimes, we are responsible. I hold each American responsible for Iraqi deaths (though that doesn't begin to cover it) I hold Israelis responsible for Palestinian deaths. I also hold many Americans responsible for them. Unless, however, they are like Jonathan, or a handful of other wonderful Israelis who risk their lives and futures for justice, defying their army.


Sooo... each Iraqi under Saddam was responsible for the killings and disappearances of friends and neighbors (They did nothing). Each Palistinian is responsible for the deaths of innocent children killed by suicide bombers recruited by Palistinian leaders (They did nothing). And each and every American who is not a Native American (and even some who are) and who is living on land once occupied by Native American people is responsible.

We could cover the whole planet with blame... and justification for whatever act or thought or deed against the 'other' that we came up with, simply because we can all prove that we are the 'wronged' and we are allowed revenge.

I certainly hope that we, as sentient primates, can put aside That Beast at Burning Man, forget the wrongs, and come together. Otherwise, we are simply going to be a reflection of the world outside... only with face paint and glow sticks.
:evil:



Allow me to illustrate with an example.

As BM participants, we are responsible for a collective environmental impact to the playa. If there was a huge burn patch on playa, we'd all be somewhat responsible. Maybe because our community didn't set strict enough standards for itself. Maybe because we didn't hold ourselves and each other to them. There's a reason that each person is meant to spend a couple of hours moop cleaning - after they clean their own space on the playa. Well, maybe you picked up each piece of your own lint as the week went along. We're still not exempt from what you could frame as a 'social duty.' The reason is that we, as the BM community, have a join impact and a joint responsibility. Similarly, the people who make up countries that purport to be ruled by the people have a joint impact, and hence a joint responsibility. True, it's not a perfect example - for instance, it is much easier to control what we could call the "BM Coalition of the Willing' because it is that - and also because it lacks the rigid structure. But you see where I am going with this. This is even more crucial when there is an imbalance of power - we have more power than the playa (ok, so we'd like to think so at least) the US with its military has more power than, well, just about anyone, and the Israelis have more military/political power than
the Palestinians. Really, it isn't a route to blaming but to responsibility. Because unless we take responsibility for the playa's ongoing health, it iwll be destroyed by our actions. Likewise, unless those of us who are Americans take responsibility for our government's actions, well... history bears me out, i've said enough.


Regardless, that is all a side-note to the real purpose of this post. Building on some earlier suggestions, I'd like to propose to LizWiz that she think about *Camp Moses,* or something along those lines. I think it could be all of the things she envisioned it in her initial post, but without the political overtones. In fact, Liz, i will happy put my politics aside if it is a purely cultural celebration - hell, i'll come volunteer. You have some great ideas that could really blossom - i guess i just feel like they needed to be pruned in a prudent direction? Granted, this is BM and your camp to do whatever you want with - but i really believe that you can celebrate the best of Jewish and/or Israeli culture while keeping an open camp for all people, with open arms instead of closed doors. Please let me know if you decide to do this, then let me know where you end up. Perhaps i can come up with some theme - appropriate foods to bring you.
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Postby Sensei » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:53 am

Rian, did you even bother to read Badger's last post?
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Postby stuart » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:54 am

If there was a huge burn patch on playa, we'd all be somewhat responsible.


sorry, I don't buy that for one second. Especially without any context given what so ever. Shop that global guilt somewhere else.
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Postby blyslv » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:09 pm

Badger wrote:Why is this being railroaded into a political discussion?



Partly because of the name of the thread and camp. "Isreal" is a political sub-division that in and of itself engenders an enourmous amount of passion across the spectrum.
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Postby Rian Jackson » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:38 pm

Sensei wrote:Rian, did you even bother to read Badger's last post?


Absolutely. Had you read the entire thread, you'd notice that there are differing opinions on what should be discussed where and how. And while I generally have valued what Badger has to say, I didn't realize he'd been elevated to eplaya god, at least any more than anyone else here. (No offense, Badger.)

Had you read my post, you would have realised that it is:
1) A direct response to an earlier post, and
2) A move away from specific partisan politics toward talking about, shockingly, community. I'm not married to the concept of getting into cultural or personal views of community here and now, but that does seem to be an integral issue for the BM - well, for lack of a better word, community. Maybe we have different views on things.... but don't shoot down a relevant post based on your spot readings.

People several times asked for constructive ideas for LizWiz, so I ventured to address that. Hopefully she'll take a look, and then do as she likes. IF she chooses not to, sure, I'll take Badger's ideas to heart. But maybe she wants to hear how she can be more inclusive? Why are you being so aggressive about it? In fact, if you re-read Badger's post, you'll find that he asks for a re-focusing on the Camp Israel idea. And then you'll find that the heart of my post addresses this.

Enough with the fighting already. If ya'll are spoiling for a fight, go down to your local pub. And, please, read carefully next time.

Over and out,
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Re: CAMP MOSES??

Postby Sensei » Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:22 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:I'd like to propose to LizWiz that she think about *Camp Moses,* or something along those lines....


Ok Rian, you "proposed" she change the name to suit you. This is what sticks in my craw. To your credit, and I mean this sincerely, you do seem to understand that LizWiz can do what ever the hell she wants to do, because its her damn camp. Your proposal is just that (a proposal), and you seem to know it. You get twenty five karma points for that alone. And offering to volunteer sets you apart from nearly everyone else...
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Re: CAMP MOSES??

Postby Sensei » Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:24 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:I'd like to propose to LizWiz that she think about *Camp Moses,* or something along those lines....


Ok Rian, you "proposed" she change the name to suit you. This is what sticks in my craw. To your credit, and I mean this sincerely, you do seem to understand that LizWiz can do what ever the hell she wants to do, because its her damn camp. Your proposal is just that (a proposal), and you seem to know it. You get twenty five karma points for that alone. And offering to volunteer sets you apart from nearly everyone else...
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Postby samtzu » Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:47 pm

Why is it that we think that others have not experienced what we have experienced, therefore they don't have the moral position to make valid observations? I won't argue my experience, but it is there and it is real. I won't defend my views, because they are mine and I am happy with them, even if no one else in the whole wide world is. And I won't attack anyone else's view, except with a very small pin... I prefer a very slow deflation to a loud 'pop'.

Three of my all time heros are Mahatma Ghandi, The Dalai Lama, and Nelson Mandela. All three of them have shown incredible integrity in the face of extreme human cruelty and hardship. All three of them have been exemplary leaders, leading their people to a new level of humanity in the face of human cruelty. It would be a sweet thing if such leaders could arise in the conflicts that have been addressed on this page.

The prayer of both sides of the conflict should be that their Divinity of Choice would send such leaders.

Then we could get back to the main idea of Burning Man... which is PARTY!!! WHOO-HOO!!!!

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Postby Badger » Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:04 pm

Partly because of the name of the thread and camp. "Isreal" is a political sub-division that in and of itself engenders an enourmous amount of passion across the spectrum.


Engenders? Perhaps. No argument actually. Still, what make you of someone who comes to the board soliciting Camp Land-o-Fags in which the OP is asking for gay/dyke participants to revel, cherish, celebrate their queerness? High tea, drag shows, Barbara Streisand songs...

Soon enough other posters start barging in suggesting that the idea represents X and that Y is the real reason for propsing the idea. One or two people come in suggesting that homos are an affront to Z and therefore don't warrant consideration and that to follow through with the idea is wrong/vile/hateful/etc. The message engenders more passionate exchanges but what becomes apparant after a while is that the majority of disfavoring posts have more to do with a personal bias anchored in perceptions and stereotypes than any anything else.

It's the height of arrogance and bigotry to assign worth and meaning to an idea just because it plays to long-held opinions that lie on the periphery of what one thinks the camp represents without really investigating what's really being suggested.

It seems to me that that is exactly what's been happening here.
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Postby bullD » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:13 pm

Badger wrote: The message engenders more passionate exchanges but what becomes apparant after a while is that the majority of disfavoring posts have more to do with a personal bias anchored in perceptions and stereotypes than any anything else.

It's the height of arrogance and bigotry to assign worth and meaning to an idea just because it plays to long-held opinions that lie on the periphery of what one thinks the camp represents without really investigating what's really being suggested.

It seems to me that that is exactly what's been happening here.


Well said!

And, with that I will ask the disfavoring posters a question:
Have YOU ever been to the area in question and if so, did YOU spend ample time there to gain first-hand experience to base YOUR rather biased opinions on? I am not talking a week or two, I'm talking years. If not, do me, and I am speaking for myself here, a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!! TAKE IT ELSEWHERE!!
With that said I will also say this,,, gather your OWN facts and come to your OWN conclusions. Of course, this requires brain use, please give it a try.
I will close with this:
If you kids keep arguing here I'm gonna pull this thread over, reach back, and smack the shit out of you kids... he he he
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Geez, what were we talking about...

Postby Eduardo » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:15 pm

C'mon folks! Seems to me that:


:arrow: LizWiz, Moshe and a bunch of others went to the trouble of pulling together a camp, arranging a bunch of activities, etc. (we all know that's not easy, it's a **lot** of work, and it's to be commended)

:arrow: Their intent is to meet up with like minded folks, and share some of their stuff to others who may not have been exposed to it yet.

:arrow: They were out publizicing it, posting their schedule, asking people in the community for additional things they may need like DJs and so on.

Yay!! and kudos to them, they're out doing their bit, participating and offering to do stuff for us.



Most of the discussion after that (sorry, DVD Burner et al :( ) seems extraneous.

Put it this way; let's say I went to the trouble of setting up Camp Spain (I'm Spanish :P ), posted it in the forums to invite the community (Spanish and non-Spanish) to come in for food, music, culture a grand ol' Spain experience.

If the response I got was buckets o' grief + assorted URLs about brutality in Latin America, the Inquisicion, Franco, kicking out Jews &Arabs, etc. I'd be pretty damn dissapointed - pissed, too: most likely it would be "oh yeah? well screw you too, buddy". And downhill from there, which is pretty much what's happened.

I honestly think we owe these guys an apology. Or maybe just drop by & check it out. Hell, I'll probably drop by - are there any plans to bring lots of malawach for breakfast, & none of that awful Israeli Pop? :).

Peace, guys


Eduardo

PD Idea for a theme village - Camps That You Can Have Kittens About. Definitivelly camp Israel and camp Spain, also camp Germany? camp SouthernBabtist? camp China? Campbodia? camp Vatican? any other all-time favourites? :twisted:
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Postby Sensei » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:38 pm

I believe the good Dr. Pyro has beat you to it with the Barbie Death Camp and Wine Bistro (the nicest concentration camp on the playa). Its all good fun, 'til they start marchin' those poor dolls into the ovens. Oh, the horror...
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