Portal Patch closure.... WTF!?!

Do you think it was absolutely ridiculous to shut down the Portal Patch on Burn night??

Yes
2
6%
No
23
74%
no opinion
6
19%
 
Total votes : 31

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:44 pm

Whoops. I thought they were a different camp. (Wasn't paying attention.)
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Postby Lassen Forge » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:53 pm

retropsycho wrote:
rheos wrote:...if it was going to be a problem why would Burning Man placement put them there... That's more my question than why do people feel like they should try to shut down someone else's stage.


Not everyone fits at 2:00 or 10:00.

Portal Patch Sound Amplification Placement Request: "For our sound amplification, we will be bringing a large sound system. We do not feel that we should be placed completely with the Large-Scale Sound Art system, which are at 2 and 10 o'clock on the map. We will be bringing a loud system though, and take responsibility that we should not be placed in the middle of the community in quieter areas. We feel that we should be around 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock appropriately, and at social areas where sound and dancing is enjoyed! Our camp is going to have a stage, a fully equipped system for music performers, and great sound. If a permit is needed for amplified sound, I feel our system will possibly be large enough to need one. We won't be blasting people's faces off like opulent temple and similar type camps, but we also won't have a tiny little ipod ghetto blaster :) Somewhere between the two, which is nice!"


The rules are pretty straightforward - If you're not placed at 2 or 10 you have to follow the 300W/98 DB rule. Period. There IS no "special Permit" to violate this (I see camps try this BS every year, usually before they get shut down or an irate neighbor goes ninja on their cables)... it's da laaawwww....

Fringe tried this years ago with us... unfortunately, when you have a camp which has an unusually high number of peeps who work for the Man, it's pretty hard to bullshit them. Remember the salt water et al post I made earlier... well, the Rangers finally convinced them they had to follow the rules, as aparently ANOTHER one of their neighbors had actively planned this attack... and their camp would be held responsible for any damage or injury...
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Postby retropsycho » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:30 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:The rules are pretty straightforward - If you're not placed at 2 or 10 you have to follow the 300W/98 DB rule. Period. There IS no "special Permit" to violate this (I see camps try this BS every year, usually before they get shut down or an irate neighbor goes ninja on their cables)... it's da laaawwww....


For the sake of discussion, didn't Deep End and Distrikt break the 300W/98DB rule?

2010 Placement Questionnaire:
"Black Rock City Registered Placement Zones ...
The Esplanade and Portals:
...No Large Scale Sound Art, but the Esplanade and adjacent areas are generally louder than other zones."

What do you all think louder than other zones means if other zones are restricted to 300W/98 DB?

Should there be, is there a medium-scale sound zone?
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Postby rheos » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:42 pm

...
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Postby rheos » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Portal Patch Sound Amplification Placement Request: "For our sound amplification, we will be bringing a large sound system. We do not feel that we should be placed completely with the Large-Scale Sound Art system, which are at 2 and 10 o'clock on the map. We will be bringing a loud system though, and take responsibility that we should not be placed in the middle of the community in quieter areas. We feel that we should be around 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock appropriately, and at social areas where sound and dancing is enjoyed! Our camp is going to have a stage, a fully equipped system for music performers, and great sound. If a permit is needed for amplified sound, I feel our system will possibly be large enough to need one. We won't be blasting people's faces off like opulent temple and similar type camps, but we also won't have a tiny little ipod ghetto blaster :) Somewhere between the two, which is nice!"


If that was indeed the Portal Patch Sound Amplification request submitted to the placement team, to me that seems pretty clear. Obviously they were planning to have a sound system bigger than 300W and requested to be placed appropriately.

Also I'm sure there have been certain camps (like the Deep End) in the past which were well over the sound of what the Portal Patch had and did not get shut down for it.

Thanks for sharing that. It does seem clear that there should be some place sanctioned for camps which are not quite 2:00 or 10:00 size but yet are bigger than 300W. Then at least neighbors would know what they are in for before they find themselves next to them.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:46 pm

Well, I still think they fucked up by not responding to the neighbor's concerns. Our village got placed differently than we asked for this year, and we didn't try to make our original plans fit. I don't think we were happy with the result, but if Portal Patch didn't end up in the best place for the camp, they don't seem to have made a good faith effort to live within the limitations of where they ended up.
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Postby rheos » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:51 pm

they don't seem to have made a good faith effort to live within the limitations of where they ended up.


and by what measure do you make that evaluation? i have no idea what they did or didn't do or how unreasonable the neighbors were.

What I had heard was that it wasn't all the neighbors but rather one rather enthusiastic one who declared a vendetta to do all he could to rally whatever support he needed to get it shut down.

what to believe?
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Postby sputnik » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:15 pm

The difference between Deep End/Distrikt and Portal Patch is that Deep End is a day time camp and Portal Patch was playing in the pre-dawn to early morning hours. This totally fucked up the little bit of sleep I was getting.
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:23 pm

rheos wrote:
they don't seem to have made a good faith effort to live within the limitations of where they ended up.


and by what measure do you make that evaluation? i have no idea what they did or didn't do or how unreasonable the neighbors were.

What I had heard was that it wasn't all the neighbors but rather one rather enthusiastic one who declared a vendetta to do all he could to rally whatever support he needed to get it shut down.

what to believe?


The small% that post here sure wonted it shut.. Is that a good enough sample..
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:44 pm

The posters on this thread seem to be running 12 to 2 in favor of closing it down.
Okay, it's not scientific, but it's what we got.

Plus someone called me CryptoFashist. Didn't seem like a joke either, but I missed it when I first read his reply.

I am hurt.

I guess I know whom I'm plonking next.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:01 pm

This is where the Don't Be a Dick golden rule would work wonders. Don't be a dick by complaining when the crowd is dancing, don't be a dick and play louder than loud when no one is around. Duh.

I bet MJ wasn't drawing crowds early in the morning.
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Postby Kinetik V » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:03 pm

Retropsycho, IMHO you overstepped with that comment to Cryptofishist....an apology is in order.
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Postby retropsycho » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:25 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:someone called me CryptoFashist. Didn't seem like a joke either, but I missed it when I first read his reply.

I am hurt.

I guess I know whom I'm plonking next.


"CryptoFashist", huh? Well at least they didn't call you "CryptoFascist". That would have been intolerable.

Oooooo. I empathize with you, Fishy! Some one called me (RetroPsycho), "RetroCYCLE" (emphasis mine). RetroCycle?! I mean I do recycle and all, but still . . .
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Postby POWERCHAIR » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:53 pm

.........
Last edited by POWERCHAIR on Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby retropsycho » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:48 am

What happened was:

Fishy probably unintentionally addressed me as "RetroCycle". Cycle and Psycho sound a bit alike, do they not? As I figured CryptoFishist is a playful variation on CryptoFascist, I would poke back a bit by mixing up a name myself. Got the whole picture now folks? 'Tit for tat' as it were?

I have no friends at Portal Patch, but was interested how the community feels about loud camps that do not belong at 2:00 and 10:00. Medium scale sound placement is an annual dilemma. The sound policy as yet does not specify nighttime enforcement or daytime exceptions to the 300w90db guide.

I agree that camps need to work with their neighbors to find compromise and accommodation on sound and other issues. Reports seem to indicate that Portal Patch failed to follow this community guideline.

Somewhere in the thread someone said the BLM - Bureau of Land Management shut down this sound camp. Gotta look into this. Doesn't seem likely the BLM would get involved in sound issues.
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Postby Da Mule » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:56 am

theCryptofishist wrote:Plus someone called me CryptoFashist. Didn't seem like a joke either, but I missed it when I first read his reply.

I am hurt.


I don't know about humans, but for equines that's a very natural response.

(((((CryptoFISHIST)))))
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:58 am

Da Mule wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:Plus someone called me CryptoFashist. Didn't seem like a joke either, but I missed it when I first read his reply.

I am hurt.


I don't know about humans, but for equines that's a very natural response.

(((((CryptoFISHIST)))))


Ah thanks.

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Postby rheos » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:01 pm

I have no friends at Portal Patch, but was interested how the community feels about loud camps that do not belong at 2:00 and 10:00. Medium scale sound placement is an annual dilemma. The sound policy as yet does not specify nighttime enforcement or daytime exceptions to the 300w90db guide.


I think there is probably enough of a gap here that it should be addressed by Burning Man policy folks.

I might suggest that maybe that some of the plazas could be upped a bit with their sound restrictions.

or perhaps some area of 2:30 and 9:30 ?

I wish there was some way to know how much Portal Patch tried to accommodate their neighbors complaints. Like how many were complaining that they were too loud compared to who was complaining that it was on at all.
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Postby rheos » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:07 pm

another question about the 300w90db

how do you measure that?

some sort of decibel meter held at a certain distance?
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Postby HandJamMasterC » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:32 pm

another question about the 300w90db

how do you measure that?

some sort of decibel meter held at a certain distance?


Yes. Next year I'll bring my Radio Shack sound meter. I doubt it will help. If people kept their music reasonably loud, there would not be any problems.

I'm buying a 500 watt system. I'll still be barely heard if heard at all.........
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Postby curiousgnate » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:52 pm

just a few comments here. First off i had a blast at pink mammoth every day. while i was not camped with or near them, i know that they rocked a ton of people's socks off. I'm not sure what time they would stop playing music, but supposedly they are a day only dance camp. if they went much later then 10 damn, i wish i knew cause at least they play good music. There were people dancing there monday, and tuesday and every day of the week. That being said if this camp portal patch had bass that was pissing people off, why did they not just turn down the bass. an amplifier has a knob, and it doesn't have to be set at 11 all the time. If they got shut down and had a lot of complaints then that is their fault for not being reasonable. I can almost hear their conversation in my head right now. fuck keeping the sound down we have rights too, lets turn the shit up and fuck anyone who doesn't like it. Really people, I know that even in my daily life I think about how i would like to be treated in certain situations and then go about taking others feelings into account in the way I act towards them. It's just common courtesy. Also taking a break from music for a while is always nice, even if you are a sound camp. take some time off from like 4or 5 am til after its hot and everyone is up. you might even like to catch a few winks yourself.
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Postby unjonharley » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:22 pm

curiousgnate wrote:just a few comments here. First off i had a blast at pink mammoth every day. while i was not camped with or near them, i know that they rocked a ton of people's socks off. I'm not sure what time they would stop playing music, but supposedly they are a day only dance camp. if they went much later then 10 damn, i wish i knew cause at least they play good music. There were people dancing there monday, and tuesday and every day of the week. That being said if this camp portal patch had bass that was pissing people off, why did they not just turn down the bass. an amplifier has a knob, and it doesn't have to be set at 11 all the time. If they got shut down and had a lot of complaints then that is their fault for not being reasonable. I can almost hear their conversation in my head right now. fuck keeping the sound down we have rights too, lets turn the shit up and fuck anyone who doesn't like it. Really people, I know that even in my daily life I think about how i would like to be treated in certain situations and then go about taking others feelings into account in the way I act towards them. It's just common courtesy. Also taking a break from music for a while is always nice, even if you are a sound camp. take some time off from like 4or 5 am til after its hot and everyone is up. you might even like to catch a few winks yourself.


The Pink played later Thur. Fri nite they were rocking at 4:30 when I had to get up and pee..
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Postby curiousgnate » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:04 am

Damn I would have loved to rock out over there at night instead of the dub crap poop step places. oh well. Last year they didn't play past around 9 or 10. I guess if they have decided to not just be a day camp anymore they should request placement, and get it in a louder area. I know that they usually land grab, and are generally in the same area. Maybe it is time for them to actually apply for a spot. I'm sure they like my camp don't want to do this so maybe a land grab in a louder area would work as well.
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Postby rheos » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:32 am

I can almost hear their conversation in my head right now. fuck keeping the sound down we have rights too, lets turn the shit up and fuck anyone who doesn't like it.


if you actually do hear this conversation in your head i might suggest you seek professional help before it gets worse.

if you are simply creating conjecture on the other hand.. i don't really think that's fair..

It seems I (and many) felt the same about Portal Patch as you do for your Pink Mammoth.. I do think that the Portal Patch tried to turn it down when they started receiving complaints but there may be other factors that lead to them appearing loud again or maybe they didn't get any louder but what measures they thought were reasonable were not enough for some.

Like if suddenly there were people on microphones where there weren't before that would change the feeling of the volume of the sound even if the knobs stay right where they are.. sometimes a DJ might also sneak it up.. maybe his sound card is louder than the one before.. maybe the sound guy shift changed and he didn't fully understand the seriousness of the situation or didn't notice it feeling louder again.. lots of factors. It could be 1 person's honest mistake and not really fair to label the camp as a bunch of dicks.

Also to be clear.. Portal Patch partied 2 nights. They were not a 24/7 loud camp. Sure first "night" went for maybe 20 hours starting at 4pm.. but they were off the next night and didn't come back on till Burn night.
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Postby Angela » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:37 am

Portal Patch was only shut down after rangers brought out a decibel meter. There are specific standards in place for amperage and amplification, and them's the rules, hoss. If someone can't or won't operate within them, responsibility for the consequences lies with them (radical self-reliance??!! community??!!). However, I am also certain that if they had been willing to simply turn their bass down earlier in the week and respect the polite requests of their neighbors for at least part of the day, it would never have been an issue. We are very tolerant when we are not being abused and completely disregarded.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:41 pm

Thank you for the clarification, Angela.
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Postby rheos » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:53 pm

yes, thank you.. that's interesting for sure.

I didn't catch who you are, angela...

one of the rangers or a neighbor with a complaint? just curious who the "we" is you were referring to.
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Postby unjonharley » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:40 am

rheos wrote:yes, thank you.. that's interesting for sure.

I didn't catch who you are, angela...

one of the rangers or a neighbor with a complaint? just curious who the "we" is you were referring to.


I do hope you and your anger stay home 2011.. Maybe you will "get it" when you grow up.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:21 pm

Well, we didn't convince him, but we did get to see the incredible human talent for twisting reality into something that tells you what you want to hear in action. Not a rarity, but sometimes it's nice to see something that pure.
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Radical Free Expression

Postby bradtem » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:24 pm

Burning Man is about Radical Free Expression, but there is one type of free expression -- loud music -- which is unlike almost all the other kinds commonly found on the playa, because what enhances your experience ruins somebody else's and they can't avoid that by just "not listening." Even earplugs are at best a partial solution; they don't let you have interesting conversations in camp, or stop ultra-bass, or even stop all the sound when you want to sleep. It is not enough to simply not visit the loud camps, and it's hardly fair to tell the people who want peace to move if they don't like it.

So this is special, and so it gets a rule, but the rule is only marginally enforced. It's a luck of the draw.

11 years ago, they failed at an experiment. They declared that 2 o'clock would be quiet and 10 would be loud, and the level of noise would get greater as you went up, so 8 and 9 would also be very loud, and 2 would be a sort of hushville and 6 would be a place you could have some music in your camp but still be able to think and talk etc.

The placers never got the message and placed a variety of loud camp sin the 2-4 zone, and the rule was ignored. But I think that is why it failed and the principle still makes sense if it was clear, and made clear in camp applications and survival guide and greeter messages (especially to those with large audio gear.) It might make sense to make 6 the quiet zone and go loud out to 2 and 10, though many people like to be central.
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