Help camps w/bars avoid unknowingly serving minors alcohol

Postby Eric » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:07 pm

justfred wrote:For the ID system to work, I think you'd have to start asking a LOT more people to show IDs. Does anyone at Burning Man carry an ID?


I always have my ID on me. If I get carded (not likely at my age, but possible) I've got it. If a LEO needs to see, I have it, and they don't have an excuse to go to my camp looking for "violations". If I get into an accident, I have it.

Just because I'm on the playa doesn't mean I stop taking personal responsibility for my actions. I try to stay prepared.
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Re: Help camps w/bars avoid unknowingly serving minors alcoh

Postby madmatt » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:17 pm

lemur wrote: this was covered in the latest Jack Rabbit Speaks: V14:#23:07.15.10


I know, I read it, and that was exactly the reason I started this thread. The fact that the law says, that you as the bartender are ok if you have done some due diligence. (We did!) But ALSO it makes it a violation to allow minors to loiter in a tavern. That's the long and short of it.

What I want is a little more overt messaging to ticket purchasers under 21 about their responsibility and about how they're putting other well-meaning people at risk.

Ultimately, we just have to get people's IDs. But we can still get a ticket if a minor brings his own flask and drinks alcohol in our bar! Gah!!
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Re: Help camps w/bars avoid unknowingly serving minors alcoh

Postby dj_john69 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:11 pm

madmatt wrote:We have a fairly large camp (65-80 people) with a big public bar and lounge area that has a big, busy, public happy hour at 3pm daily. Last year, our happy hours got VERY busy, a couple with nearly 1,000 (we had great DJs!) Anyhoo, the bar got so busy that the scene attracted the attention of law enforcement, so they did a sting operation.

We barely talked our way out of two $1,000 tickets for serving a minor for a couple of our campmates, despite having a big, visible "No Minors Served" sign, and we actually asked all young looking people "are you over 21?" We didn't actually require people to show the ID because it was soooo busy and we thought that was sufficient. The Pershing County Sheriffs disagreed!

Burning Man Organization should do more public awareness raising - perhaps at the point of a ticket purchase or at the front gate - to underscore that minors can get themselves and others in BIG trouble by drinking at the bars.

Obviously, we are responsible for our own compliance with the law, but a big part of it involves people tricking us into breaking the law.

I think this is a very serious problem at Burning Man, and I'd love some public discourse about it and some discussion of possible ways to improve the situation.

I'll start: This year, during happy hour, we will probably rope off the front of our bar and have someone checking IDs and stamping people, so that our bartenders don't have to do it inside. But wow, what a BUZZKILL to have to do that on the playa.

Your ideas??


Honestly, if you have bartenders that cant tell someones age over 21, they might not be the right bartender for your job.

Expecting people to bring their ids for a drink is crazy. In my 15 years on the Playa, i have NEVER carried my id around. Why risk losing it out there and having to get a new one back in reality land. Do what you gotta do though.

I personally am not a bartender BUT i can tell if someone is over 21. If that 1 person looks under age, dont give them a drink. Kick them outta your camp, do what ever you gotta do.

By the way, it's not BMORGS responsibility to cover a camps ass if the camp decides to serve alcohol. It's strictly on the camp.
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Postby Brooks_DallasTX » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:25 pm

Bounce530 wrote:I've also had to go through metal detectors at county fairs...


Wait a minute... You mean there are no metal detectors at the BM entrance?

I expect the BMorg to do whatever it takes to keep me safe while allowing me to do whatever I want. :roll:
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Postby Brooks_DallasTX » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:29 pm

MistressSybs wrote:
Bounce530 wrote:As already discussed on another thread, being a middle aged white(ish) male, getting served isn't that likely anyway, no matter conversation/gifts/etc...I supply my own drink


So Burningman bars are just as shitty as the default world's bars are??? Not young, tiny, big titted or cocked and you're left dry no matter what conversation/gifts/etc? So this is an IN crowd thing and the pretty people run the show??? WTF? Good thing I'm beautiful dammit! Oh and bring my own drinks. pffffft! So much for utopia where you're not judged. *insert eyeroll here*

.


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Postby AntiM » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:41 pm

That's why I love the Golden Cafe, everyone gets a drink, in their glassware. You may not get the exact drink of your choice, and you can earn head of the line privileges, but anyone can. Yay!
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:59 am

IF LEOs are going to do sting operations, then the LEOs, not anyone else, will force the next logical step of wrist-banding. Wrist bands could be optional for those who are blessed enough to look under 21. If a young looking 25 year old thinks showing an ID at the gate to receive a wrist band (or carrying their ID with them) is too much trouble, then they cant complain if they are not served alcohol. Folks like me don't need to bother because I am a white male and because I don't look anywhere near 21.
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:05 pm

different but related topic:

In 2008 Mischief camp had a kiosque that advertised "Free porn." Of course, there was no porn on our computer terminals, just a nice and naughty electric shock to whomever double clicked on the "click here to start your session" button. LEO kept a patrol car parked right inside the Esplanade ring directly across from our camp to see if we were showing porn to minors. When we figured this out we explained that they were wasting their time and the surveillance was lifted.

Last night our camp was busily pasting nudie photos of men and women all over our bar when someone asked whether we could get in hot water if a minor strolls up to our bar and gets and eyeful of full frontal.

Would a sign at our camp entrance stating "no minors allowed" suffice? Is this being overly cautious?
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Postby HotBox_brcu » Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:58 pm

Teo del Fuego brings up another interesting point... since there are parents who bring their kids to the playa, how do exposure rules apply? And what about 'child porn'? I'm not going to require the people walking around our camp to put on clothing because we'll have 4 kids in our camp (not mine, not my preference, but it is what it is).

Our camp has a communal shade area with not only a bar but seating and a stripper pole- do I have to monitor and card every person getting on the pole? What about camps with trampolines? If a 16 year old gets on the pole or trampoline naked/topless, am I responsible? Does it matter if it's a male? What if their parents are nude/support them being nude?

This seems like the 'minor' issue is quite a major one from many angles.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:15 pm

Have a conversation with the parents, now. Get a good idea of what rules they are going to have for their children and what they expect from the other camp members and casual drop ins. Then have a conversation with the non parents and parents not bringing children. Then have a great big discussion with every one.

At least that's where I'd start.
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Postby moonrise » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:40 pm

minors just wet the stamp from an over 21 and transfer it to the other's hands....stamps do not work
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Re: Help camps w/bars avoid unknowingly serving minors alcoh

Postby teardropper » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:02 pm

lemur wrote:1) Don't serve anyone without ID who appears underage.


That's the deal. They pick their underage decoys because they look and act old enough. They want them to "appear", by clothes and manner, to be 21. They trick you. And I'm at an age that I find it very hard to tell. That means old. It would be good if it were known that if you are under 25 or 30 you will be ID'd. But again, how old does someone "appear"? If you are young, carry an ID somewhere-- a shoe? your hat? I hate it, but that may be the way it is.
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Postby Lassen Forge » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:21 pm

My feeling is if they aren't carrying ID somewhere, then they're not that worried about getting turned down for a drink. I mean, even nekkid, you can get a work laminate holder necklace, put it around your neck, and call it done.

If they plan on barhopping and don't expect to get carded, then they may as well plan on being on playa and not getting dusty...
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Postby HandJamMasterC » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:10 pm

We are having a bar this year for the first time too, and this issue does concern me.

Can I just have every person that comes in swear on a Bible that they are 21 years old or older, and not affiliated with any law enforcement agency, local, state or federal ? Maybe I'll wear my priest outfit when I do the swearing in ceremony at the bar.....hahaha ! 8)
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hmmm...

Postby moonrise » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:37 pm

Due diligence was a biggie, I've worked/managed bars NV and CA for 30 years....the ABC gives a class, that when taken and passed (I forget if they had a test...I think it was just a boring loooong lecture) gives a bartender a "one time" get out of jail free card....BUT also, class or not if you LOOK at ID's you have shown due diligence and the courts would take that into account...yikes...you don't even want to get that far! I hated it when ID's were from varied states, countries, what ev....how the hell do I know if it's a good fake or not?

As far as law enforcement is concerned, tough cookies...card and be carded, they are "just doing their job" true that man...I've seen it (an actual arrest) happen ONCE and it was not fun for the poor waiter...he was not even a bartender...all over a glass of wine.

I say why take the risk? A fun gig/week (and yikes! court/lawyer bla bla bla) totally ruined isn't worth it. PLUS, they are DOING stings!!!! AND they are TELLING the public they are doing stings, this is rare!...but it's a great deterent and helps YOU!

If one sting/arrest ever occured this would spread an alarm within any default real world bar/restaurant community in minutes...even competing bars would burn up the wires by RUNNING to the phones and warning eachother on every f**king phone available and we aren't TRYING to serve minors for goodness sakes, only idiots do that!...they do mean business...sorry, but card and LOOK closely at the ID!!!!!, not just the face/age...I'm not 100% current on what Nevada can and cannot do as far as a fake ID for undercover agents...ask a burner lawyer if the date of birth date needs to be REAL...I think it does but not sure in Nevada.

Of course it can be a violation (duh) if they discover a monir who isn't one of their undercover agents with a drink in your bar camp.

You ought to try asking the Bman lawyers about details...pro bono.

I am a bit tired, I don't want to confuse you if I have written anything sloppily....I do assure you, calling a burner lawyer or any dui/dwi NV lawyer will help you with details and the rules are very simple. I just cannot type it all out perfectly. Bottom line, carding is A#1 rule and I'd ask for the details from a NV lawyer...preferably a burner lawyer and that way you'll NOT be all paranoid when you get the facts. I hate to sound like a BUZZ KILL, sheesh...but it's wellllllll..... "see above"

PS I am an expert Flambe' artist, cocktails and deserts....edible multi colored curtains and mushroom clouded explosions of sparkling flames as high as 5 to 15 feet! I will try to visit your camp, I'll be in a zoot suit or a tux...I can tone the flames down to a few inches...perhaps I can make a few drinks for ya! They are magical to say the least.....and there's more but it's a surprise!
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Postby bx1 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:43 pm

This is why I thoroughly support the long standing BYOB policy. Besides... I don't wanna give my booze to anyone. THEY'RE MINE!
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pps...

Postby moonrise » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:45 pm

sorry, i missed a couple of posts before my previous post.

long n short...a dui/dwi lawyer will make it VERY simple for you if you just call. especially a burner lawyer. they tell you for free I am sure. there arent too many rules but you should know the ins and outs.
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Postby teardropper » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:05 pm

I was in some state a while ago, can't remember which one, went into a bar and got carded. I do not look anywhere near under 21. I asked what the deal was, I am clearly over 21, why was he busting my balls with that? He said state law. EVERYONE has to be ID'd. An over reaction to the very fine line between under and over 21. Sure wouldn't want it to come to that, so we either card anyone looking remotely younger than 30 or do we do wrist bands? Something. They are actively trying to bust someone.
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Postby C187 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:42 pm

People, it's not hard to go and say, "Need to see your ID" to every person that wants a drink. Just get into the habit of asking everyone. - Yes even the dude who looks 82.

Before anyone gets oh hum-dumb on how much of a pain it is.
1, It's not.
2, The people who are old enough to drink but don't have ID are obviously not responsible enough too drink.
3, Just about all states follow the AAMVA standards for vertical DL/ID of persons under the age of 21.
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Postby Sham » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:47 pm

I have never carried an ID or lisence on the playa except when I was driving mine or other art cars. I would really hate to lose that somewhere on a 7 square mile area of playa, and not be able to board my plane home. The TSA can be dickheads you know! No ID--no boarding.
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Postby Optic » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:26 pm

In my experience, professional bartenders are pretty good at spotting people who are under 21. And bars in reality have those "We card anyone who looks under BLANK years old" policies.

However, a lot of the bartenders at Burning Man aren't professional bartenders, and that's where a lot of the problem comes from, I think...

I think that if bars on the Playa had a similar policy (say... card anyone who looks under 25 or something), it could be a big help. Since so many bars have policies like that, I feel like people who're 25 and under should already be used to carrying their ID, so it shouldn't be such a big deal...

Maybe it's just the principle of needing to carry an ID whilst at an event like Burning Man, I dunno....
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Postby nickn » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:56 pm

HotBox_brcu wrote:Teo del Fuego brings up another interesting point... since there are parents who bring their kids to the playa, how do exposure rules apply? And what about 'child porn'? I'm not going to require the people walking around our camp to put on clothing because we'll have 4 kids in our camp (not mine, not my preference, but it is what it is).


I think simple nudity (i.e. non-sexual) is OK for kids to witness anywhere. As far as I know it's legal for minors to buy Playboy and those type magazines, and nudist resorts can have minors in attendance.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:01 pm

nickn wrote:
HotBox_brcu wrote:Teo del Fuego brings up another interesting point... since there are parents who bring their kids to the playa, how do exposure rules apply? And what about 'child porn'? I'm not going to require the people walking around our camp to put on clothing because we'll have 4 kids in our camp (not mine, not my preference, but it is what it is)./quote]

I think simple nudity (i.e. non-sexual) is OK for kids to witness anywhere. As far as I know it's legal for minors to buy Playboy and those type magazines, and nudist resorts can have minors in attendance.

The law is one thing and the cop is another. There have been sheriffs in the past (okay, maybe one, and for all I know he's still there) who decided to make trouble because he didn't like the content. Now, I don't want people to not express themselves, but

Oh, fuck, I don't ducking know. Hard choices, ya know?
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Postby squishelle » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:13 pm

Underage drinking sign for your bar compliments of Weasel at Whiskey and Dust camp, assisted by squishelle.

http://burningvan.org/BM2010/BMUnderageDrinking.pdf


Idea being this will HELP you & your visitors...
post something on the inside of the bar as well, to remind ur bartenders to ASK!
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Postby hollywallydoodle » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:33 pm

i get asked for ID every time i go out in san francisco, but i've NEVER been asked in black rock city.

i don't carry ID on the playa because i don't want to risk losing it—i really hate spending my saturdays at the sf dmv. i wouldn't be upset if i were denied a drink for not having it though.

i'm 27.
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Postby LostinReno » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:03 pm

teardropper wrote:I was in some state a while ago, can't remember which one, went into a bar and got carded. I do not look anywhere near under 21. I asked what the deal was, I am clearly over 21, why was he busting my balls with that? He said state law. EVERYONE has to be ID'd. An over reaction to the very fine line between under and over 21. Sure wouldn't want it to come to that, so we either card anyone looking remotely younger than 30 or do we do wrist bands? Something. They are actively trying to bust someone.


Being on the other side of the spectrum of this, there is a chain of convenience stores in Nevada that cards everybody. period. Usually it's kind of an esteem boost. I went in a week or two ago and picked up a six pack. The woman asked me for ID and couldn't keep a straight face. WTF?? LOL!
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Postby geospyder » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:26 pm

Dang - maybe I'll have to sue for age discrimination - they never ask for my ID. They just automatically give me the senior discount :cry:
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Postby dinks » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:50 pm

Shambala wrote:I have never carried an ID or lisence on the playa except when I was driving mine or other art cars. I would really hate to lose that somewhere on a 7 square mile area of playa, and not be able to board my plane home. The TSA can be dickheads you know! No ID--no boarding.


I agree, I would never carry my ID on the playa. I would constantly be checking to see if it was still there every 10 minutes.
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Postby Bounce530 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:10 pm

@ Squishelle-
Printed and laminated.
I like yours much better then my other one.
Thanks!
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Postby Savannah » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:37 pm

I'm giving thought to carrying my passport to playa bars, if I visit any. It expires in February, and what better way for it to be of service before then? It has been literally good for nothing (in the traditional sense) as I'm not sure I've actually left the country in the last 10 years. No wonder I'm so pathetically excited about the street names being cities of the world. I've been living a cloistered life. Couldn't even persuade anyone to cross the border into Tijuana with me when I was at Comicon last year. Those swine! (I need to see Mexico! Even Fake Mexico!)
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