Towards a More Accessible Burn

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Postby LeChatNoir » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:36 pm

motskyroonmatick wrote:Image


Hey! This could remove the issue ramp incline all together, actually.
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Postby Elorrum » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:05 pm

I do so love the mechanical stuff, but was thinking a long ramp with steps like a stretched out staircase might work without any motors or moving parts at all. Can a wheel chair turn 90 degrees on a very gentle slope and exit onto a vehicle? or does it require a flat section? How about a sliding hinged flat section? you could roll beyond, up the ramp going up a continuous slope and then lift and lock down the platform for a horizontal "stage" and then roll back onto that at the correct height. run over rise, the platform would always be horizontal no matter where it was placed on the ramp, right?
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Postby Elorrum » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:13 pm

or maybe a series of plates, or scales... same idea except there would be many of them fixed on the ramp, and then you could roll past and then just lift and "lock" the one needed at the necessary height behind the chair. The slope could be as gradual as necessary, and each plate would only account for another few inches in height. It wouldn't be perfectly customizeable, but there might be a good selections of heights to work with. the size of plate would have to be adequate for a wheel chair, slope adequate as well. Time for a more experienced builder to help with materials and dimensions suggestions. thanks.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:23 pm

I like these ideas too. A long ramp beside a long stepped section (or a ramp with liftable "scales" to form steps) might be the more user friendly variation. The problem I can see with a sliding platform is that without knowing the matching ramp setting for the MV deck height before it backs up to (or pulls along side of) the ramp, then the flat, movable member on the ramp could become a moving target of sorts for the area of the MV that allows egress. Could take some back and forth of the MV to find the location along the ramp’s length that corresponds with it’s deck height.

But honestly, that’s probably not a huge issue.

Also for reference, a 3 foot high platform would require a 36’ long ramp to be at the 1â€
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Postby LeChatNoir » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:31 pm

Weighing the cost and amount of materials might be worth investigating as well.

A fabricated steel or steel/wood lift or ramp could be used year after year, where a wood one would likely have to be rebuilt each time.

But then…

A wood one could be burned!
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:44 pm

LeChatNoir wrote: As in, how steep does a ramp become unrealistic to use for one in a wheelchair?
I don't know. My ramp is slightly steeper in one section, and people can tell.
Actually, it was partially a lack of knowledge on stuff like this that led me to suggest trying things out with a chair. On the other hand, my arms are getting pretty strong, delts, biceps, triceps, lithiuanians, latts...

Would one inch in ten be a ten percent grade? I don't think they let roads be built to 10 percent. Am I even phrasing the question right? Or maybe the roads I'm thinking of are highways.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:46 pm

And don't forget the rickittiness factor. When you haven't a foot to land on, falls become pretty fucking scary.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:01 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Would one inch in ten be a ten percent grade?


Yep. Or 10 feet rise/fall in 100 feet. Pretty steep by highway standards, it's true.

A feeling of sturdiness and good, solid construction would be the first order in any mechanism or construction.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:06 pm

If you were on the team I'd expect that. But some of the bus lifts, oy!
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:08 pm

I don't really know how long I can go up a steep slope or even how steep the slopes are on my walks with Daddy. Of course someone pushing helps. But you have to be able to trust and communicate with the person. Pushing a wheelchair is actually a skill. Or at the very least a matter of attention.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:09 pm

The thought that keeps coming to my mind is that ideally this hypothetical thing should, if at all possible, be adjustable solely by the user… the person in the wheelchair. Seems empowering and eliminates the need to have others do something before one can do their own thing.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:12 pm

and the ADA standards are the minimum. Gentler grades, wider slopes, bigger landings, if possible.

We built the Dragonfly Lounge in 2003 and wanted to make it "ADA compliant" (after having to regretfully turn down a wheelchair-bound Citizen in 2002, who we could not even brute-force lift aboard due to narrow access ways). The rear-most trailer had a ramp system - 24" tall and 12-feet long (6' foot hinged in the middle when stowed). I thought it was pretty good even though it didn't meet the standards, until we bought a second-hand wheel chair and tried it out. In addition to being way too steep, it was flimsy, bouncing up and down horribly. We never had time to fix it tho', and the lounge never made it all the way (parts still visible as you go to Black Rock City if you know where to look as you exit the freeway), so we never got to see if it was even usable (sure, with 2-3 folks pushing up and down...but). Lifts seem like the way to go, unless it is a permanent installation on the Playa. Definitely try your solution out if possible before leaving for the Playa.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:32 pm

Wait…

After reading dragonfly Jafe's post and thinking about this, an adjustable platform height would seem to be the best approach. If used with a ramp, the ramp could be very slight since it only has to be at (or preferably below) ADA standards at it’s lowest setting. If it was lowered to the lowest setting before rolling upon it, then (if a ramp were incorporated) it wouldn’t have to be so long. And if it went flat to the ground, then no more issues with ramps at all. I had envisioned adjusting it before rolling up the ramp for some reason, but this does not have to be the case.

Just my ramblings…

Going to bed now.
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Postby ibdave » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:34 pm

I, on the other hand have nothing to add other than this is all very cool....... 8) 8) 8)

Well one thing, anyone know if the BMorg has seen this and if so and $$ from them?? I know, pipe dream, but maybe?? :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Postby gyre » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:25 pm

Is there a point of too shallow an angle?

I built some stairs recently and there was a lot of engineering, even with help from past designers.
And a lot of it is very counter-intuitive.
Too gradual a ratio tends to make people try to run, rather than slow them down.
And different ratios work for going up and going down.
I don't know if there is any correlation for the two things though.

I built a ramp for trucks and it has a gradual angle and traction still matters a lot.
I used a high gloss paint on it and used sand in the paint.
You can create a lot more grip, but it gets harder to clean.
It's a good compromise.

I could check the ratio.
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Postby rodiponer » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:39 pm

I want to help.

Here's my wild guess at materials for a basic 10' long, 3' wide, 10" high ramp made out of aluminum:

Two 10' long 2x2 0.125" tubing: edges of the platform
Two 2" long 2x2 0.125": support column 2' up ramp
Two 4" long 2x2 0.125": support column 4' up ramp
Two 6" long 2x2 0.125": support column 6' up ramp
Two 8" long 2x2 0.125": support column 8' up ramp
Two 10" long 2x2 0.125": support column 10' up ramp
= 25' of 2x2 0.125" square tubing @ $2.76/foot
= $69

Five 3' long 1x1 0.0625": cross braces between edges
Five 3' long 1x1 0.0625": guard rail on one side, 3' tall, spaced every 2 feet
One 10' long 1x1 0.0625": rail on top of the guard rail
= 40' of 1x1 0.0625" square tubing @ $0.68/foot
= $27

Subtotal = $96

This ramp frame would weigh about 40 pounds. It would need plywood or metal on top of it. That steel grating mesh stuff (like they use on cat walks) would cost about $150 and weigh 100 pounds. Aluminum would be $165 and weigh 30 pounds, though I am not sure if I am estimating with one that is strong enough. Or that solid stuff with the little diamonds on it, in aluminum, would be about $270.

Longer and taller ramps would need cross braces on the columns, so this would get a little more expensive as it gets higher. There might be a way to design something like this so that there are fixed height platforms that can stack and interlock with each other and the ramps. So to make a 30' long 30" tall ramp, you'd need six 5' long ramps and five 5' long towers that are 25", 20", 15", 10", and 5" tall.

And I hesitate to write too much about a "quick estimate", but since this is a lot of welding and fabrication work, one could also check into making these ramps out of water jet cut or CNC routed jig saw pieces. If the jig saw pieces nest well and there's not a lot of waste, this might not be much more expensive than the ramp made out of tubing, and it would be easier to just have many ramps made-- without relying on the large donation in time (and Argon, which is so expensive) from metal fabricator type folks.

Edit: This doesn't include any mechanical system or details to make the ramp flat at certain intervals.

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Postby motskyroonmatick » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:07 am

How do those lifts that are on commuter train platforms work?
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:54 am

I think the biggest problem getting chairs onto mutant vehicles is that by definition there's zero design standard. I don't think it's as much an entry height issue. I think most mutant vehicles that have floor space for a chair would need a bridge from the loading platform to their vehicle since few if any at all would be able to pull up alongside a platform and have a tight enough docking to let someone roll themselves aboard, so I doubt all the work and $$ put into playa wheelchair lifts would accomplish anything.
I think it's mostly up to the vehicle designers to make it possible to carry a chair or whatever.
I don't think it's a logistic necessity to have access lifts or ramps that can be operated solely by the person in the chair, because if there's a mutant vehicle there to be boarded, then there are going to be people there too.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:44 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:...I doubt all the work and $$ put into playa wheelchair lifts would accomplish anything.
I think it's mostly up to the vehicle designers to make it possible to carry a chair or whatever.


Valid points, Captain. But perhaps the building of the ramp could spark the idea of making MV's compatible for both current and future builders. Many may simply not have thought about it.

I don't think it's a logistic necessity to have access lifts or ramps that can be operated solely by the person in the chair, because if there's a mutant vehicle there to be boarded, then there are going to be people there too.


Necessity, no. Having people around to operate or help was what I was thinking initially as well. And of course anyone out there would be more than happy to help in such a situation. But with a little planning, the person in the chair could also feel good about not having to even ask, if that was their wish.
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Postby unjonharley » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:58 am

The Cap's boat could use one of those pickup (truck)crane post/arms.. Or just get Joel to come to BM.. He just threw my Zappy up into the boat..
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Postby fciron » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:13 pm

LeChat,

While you've got your thinking cap on we should probably ponder putting a gate in the perimeter of my art project. Hard to hop a 36 inch high fence with a wheelchair.

I just had to click that link. Thanks Fishy, now I have to do something because I can no longer claim ignorance.
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Postby motskyroonmatick » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:26 pm

I have several questions.

What is the width of commonly used wheel chairs?

How much side clearance is needed to be comfortable for straight ahead in a line maneuvering?

How much area beyond the sides of the chair is needed to make a 45, 90 and 180 degree turn?

What is the maximum vertical lip that can be safely maneuvered over?
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Postby rodiponer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:48 pm

The ADA says doorways must be 30" wide. I don't know about hallways, I assume you might need more width for hands on the big side wheels.

My daughters little kid manual wheelchair is 25" wide. It can go over a one inch vertical lip without needing to pop a wheely, but even a short wedge shape is better than a straight vertical drop, especially when going down. Her chair can turn completely around in it's own length, which is 36". The wheels are closer together than that but her feet stick out in front beyond the wheels and there are handles behind the back wheels.

Someone with an adult manual or electric wheelchair should write, but I think the electric wheelchairs sometimes have quite small front wheels.

Since the ADA 1" in 12" incline is so gradual, there might not need to be much of a complicated 'make flat' system-- a 36" section of ramp has only 3" of incline on it. So, say, a 36" wide ramp could have an additional 12" on one side that has curved sections twist to gain 1.5" or lose 1.5", to make a series of flat shelves every 36". This twist is only in one plane and so the metal fabricator wouldn't have to do anything exotic to get the sheet metal to bend the right way.

Edit: Or, for vehicles that can't pull right up to the ramp, there could be gangways at some regular interval, say every 5', that have the right twist to them and could naturally fall up or down a little to hit the exact right height.
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Postby unjonharley » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:10 pm

rodiponer wrote:The ADA says doorways must be 30" wide. I don't know about hallways, I assume you might need more width for hands on the big side wheels.

My daughters little kid manual wheelchair is 25" wide. It can go over a one inch vertical lip without needing to pop a wheely, but even a short wedge shape is better than a straight vertical drop, especially when going down. Her chair can turn completely around in it's own length, which is 36". The wheels are closer together than that but her feet stick out in front beyond the wheels and there are handles behind the back wheels.

Someone with an adult manual or electric wheelchair should write, but I think the electric wheelchairs sometimes have quite small front wheels.

Since the ADA 1" in 12" incline is so gradual, there might not need to

much of a complicated 'make flat' system-- a 36" section of ramp has only 3" of incline on it. So, say, a 36" wide ramp could have an additional 12" on one side that has curved sections twist to gain 1.5" or lose 1.5", to make a series of flat shelves every 36". This twist is only in one plane and so the metal fabricator wouldn't have to do anything exotic to get the sheet metal to bend the right way.

Edit: Or, for vehicles that can't pull right up to the ramp, there could be gangways at some regular interval, say every 5', that have the right twist to them and could naturally fall up or down a little to hit the exact right height.


The big chair is 28 at the arms 24x36 base..It should turn in 36 inches.. A 30 inch doorway w/door & jam is 27 1/2 inch.. The front wheels look to be a 4 inches.. I have climb 3inch threshhold..
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:29 pm

Art Grants are due Feb. 1st

(might be a good way to quickly see if they are interested in helping to solve this problem in our little experiment in "community")
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:07 pm

ibdave wrote:Well one thing, anyone know if the BMorg has seen this and if so and $$ from them?? I know, pipe dream, but maybe?? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Well AG was on here the other day.
I don't think this is ready for primetime. I'm delighted that so many people are thinking of building things and asking all these questions and having all these ideas. I think it's wonderful. And Bob's post just about made my heart melt and opened doors in my spirit. I'm scared to go forward with it, but then I think what it means and know someone should.

What I'm really thinking of right now is a page or two of guidelines and ideas, knocked into some form that would make for good outreach, to the llc, to the theme camps, to artists. Art cars I'm a little more apprehensive about, because of the juxtaposition of two complicated machines. Or maybe that's some experience with buses.

This is definitely something I feel should not be rushed into, maybe set out some rough ideas, a set of questions for us to be thinking about when we are on the playa (wait, do we think when we're on the playa?) and work over our notes when we get back and try to have a more polished and thoughtful set of guidelines after we get back.

ON the other hand when I look at the good will that has tumbled out from this thread, maybe I'm not giving you guys enough credit for your dedication.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:17 pm

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Postby LeChatNoir » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:04 pm

Approaching the Org right now about this does seem premature to me. If such a thing were to be done, I’m not sure what would be asked or even what the points of such a meeting would be at this point.

My own opinion is that this is a subject that should be thought about on all angles… the larger issue I mean. Should a prototype ramp/lift/thingy be built for this year, I don’t think it’d be premature, but a set of guidelines or suggestions could be if not thought out. This seems in need of an empathetic approach on all sides of the issue. As a person who wishes to share putting around on a Mutant Vehicle with my friends, I would like to put some thought and work into making that vehicle accessible to all of them. As a builder of a Mutant Vehicle, I don’t want to see anyone forced (through guilt or guideline) to curtail their vision of their work because of someone else’s desires for it to be a certain way. The builder or artist should be acting upon suggestions because they want to, or see them fitting in with their vision. Simple awareness can go a long way.

That’s a good reason to build such a ramp or lift in my mind. Like any good piece of art, it should make people stop and think. Those who are touched by it will act upon it. And Black Rock City, of all places, should have an adequate abundance of thoughtful souls.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:16 pm

fciron wrote:LeChat,

While you've got your thinking cap on we should probably ponder putting a gate in the perimeter of my art project. Hard to hop a 36 inch high fence with a wheelchair.


Aha, Yes! A gate should be pretty easy to fit into the design. First thing that comes to mind is just hinges and a long drop pin latch on the other end of a short section… all on the outside of the ring to be easily reached. I think beer would help the thinking process.
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Postby motskyroonmatick » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:27 am

I have another question for people who read this thread. I should have included it in the first series of questions but alas I did not think of it.

How high is the access point of your mutant vehicle?

Ideally this would be the measurement from the ground to a point where a ramp could be extended in to the vehicle for access.

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