A question on swords...

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A question on swords...

Postby Sage » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:10 pm

So if I come to this years burn I really want to go in my full samurai garb that I have. Of course I would love to include my whole accompaniment of katana and wakasashi with this but then I think about the legal issues here. Like I know for a fact that guns are outlawed and that is perfectly understandable. Now I have seen tons of photos of the burns past and I have seen a few pics with guys walking with what appear to be swords belted on but I don't know if they were real or "peace tied" or whatever.
So:
1. Are swords legal to be carried. (prolly a no but hell I got to ask)
2. If not what if they are "peace tied so there is no ability to draw them
3. If no to the above what about dull replicas that have been modified so that they have no edge whatsoever (IE painted wood or unsharpened stock steel that is costumed up to appear as a sword)
4. The flying spaghetti monster is traveling eastward at a speed of 88 miles per hour in a delorean and then hits the flux capaciter at the moment of collision with the juggernaut, while simultaneously the incredible hulk entering from a 45 degree entry velocity from space while traveling westward also hits the juggernaut while activating the improbability all on a wednesday morning at 10am. What will be the effect of these forces all acting on the standstill juggernaut in any desirable units?[/i]
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Postby Sham » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:16 pm

I am pretty sure that you can bring and wear a sword as part of your outfit. Be careful if you pull it out and make it a weapon---it might get you arrested. There are a lot of things that can be used as weapons and considered dangerous. As long as you are not threatening with it, you should be fine.
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Postby phil » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:28 pm

> forces all acting on the standstill juggernaut

By definition, there is no standstill juggernaut.
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Postby AntiM » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:09 pm

http://www.lazydragon.com/laws/nevada.htm

Pretty sure you can carry a sword if it is NOT concealed, and if you do not make threatening gestures with it. But personally, I'd not subject a good blade to the playa dust.

Oh, and you can't take a sword on a schoolbus.
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Postby Dork » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:01 pm

You would also want to be very careful to keep it locked up when you aren't in control of it to prevent some random idiot from finding it and deciding to play with it or take pictures of their friend swinging it and oops! there goes someone's arm.

Better to just bring a costume sword that you wouldn't mind losing IMHO.
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Postby gyre » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:42 pm

You'll put your eye out.
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Postby Bob » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:10 am

Costume sword, for any number of reasons -- number one being if you don't know the law maybe you have no business taking it anywhere.
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Postby mdmf007 » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:22 am

Sorry - I thought this thread was about "S" Words

lol

anyways - In most places youd just be a wierdo to walk around with a sword, but would be in your right to do so. Other places, mostly larger municipalities have laws concerning blade lengths.

i.e Seattle Proper has a 6 inch limit for knives, Rarely enforced (unless the law dog feels like it im sure) its one of the laws on the books to nip you with if they feel the need to get you for something.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:59 am

...many things are "allowed" in the context of Burningman that are illegal in the main world (nudity,flame throwing piles of junk). As long as you are using it in context, and not threatening anyone or acting unstable or obviously on drugs, there shouldn't be a problem. We had 4 dress sabers for our wedding honor guard last year and walked down the streets in a parade with our swords drawn in a salute for some distance with no issues (right past some BLM Rangers). Of course, we were in dress uniforms and had a marching band along...with a flame throwing green penis carrying the wedding party!
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:05 pm

I'm not sure if my campmate Wolf will show up with his story. If not, see the Barbarian Camp discussion.

He was told by a Black Rock Ranger that the county boys will arrest him if he carries his sword, peace-tied or not, sharp or not. Nevada desert folk don't know jack about running a Ren Faire. On another note, some jerk pulled out his knife and started waving it around. So, yeah, no.

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Postby gyre » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:24 pm

I carried an unsheathed longsword in D.C. once.
I think they have fairly strict rules about that.


I do think a lot of caution with regard to some idiot suffering from disneyland syndrome getting hold of your sword is advised.
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We've actually had several deaths by sword here recently.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:21 am

gyre wrote:I carried an unsheathed longsword in D.C. once.
I think they have fairly strict rules about that.


Out in Defaultia, they are often more lax. I have gotten away with alot for just belonging to a historical reenactment group.

Strange to relate, BRC is more strict.
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Postby robotland » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:40 am

dragonfly Jafe wrote:...many things are "allowed" in the context of Burningman that are illegal in the main world (nudity,flame throwing piles of junk). As long as you are using it in context, and not threatening anyone or acting unstable or obviously on drugs, there shouldn't be a problem. We had 4 dress sabers for our wedding honor guard last year and walked down the streets in a parade with our swords drawn in a salute for some distance with no issues (right past some BLM Rangers). Of course, we were in dress uniforms and had a marching band along...with a flame throwing green penis carrying the wedding party!


Keyword...CONTEXT! I was frankly surprised that we didn't encounter any "intervention" with our honor guard, although it WAS a fairly short parade.... I'd say that if you ran around on the open playa with your Vorpal Blade or Pandybat or whatever for long enough, some flavor of law enforcement or another would feel compelled to "intervene". I suggest carrying a samurai sword made of bacon for safety AND maximum deliciousness.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:12 am

Okay, I hope this thread is long enough that I can go off on a tangent.

"Peace Tied." Is this really a catagory that we could expect Washoe County Sheriffs to be up on? My guess is that it's a SCA thing that got put into some high fantasy novels, not something that exists in any legal sense. I would have to ask, what's to prevent you from untieing your sword, running someone through, cleaning it, and tieing it up again, all ready to show it to LEOs with a big shrug and say "It can't of been me, look my sword is peace tied." Especially if you were the one who peace tied it in the first place. (Cause I can't see that as a duty for Gate or Greeters.)
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Postby gyre » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:44 am

I have no idea if there is any legal precedent, but I have seen an adequate restraint on knives recognized by law enforcement (not at burning man).
I think it's the same principle as wearing a holster that requires more than snatching a gun, when you wear a weapon exposed.
Even when it isn't legally required, it is kind of an obvious thing to do in dense crowds.
(Of course I always carried my sword unsheathed, over the shoulder to keep it out of reach.
It does require a constant awareness of safety.)

Here, you can carry a weapon exposed with a permit, though it isn't encouraged.
I don't think a duty type holster is specifically required, but safety and control are.

I think we fully tested the legality of open carry when we had breakfast next to the district attorney, with my friend wearing a large 45 on his hip.
Kind of an odd feeling after so many years of personal defense only being legal for the rich.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:57 am

theCryptofishist wrote:"Peace Tied." Is this really a catagory that we could expect Washoe County Sheriffs to be up on? My guess is that it's a SCA thing that got put into some high fantasy novels, not something that exists in any legal sense.


Possibly Ren Faires and Sci-Fi conventions had it first, but 'tis neither hither nor thither. :)

Lots of things on the playa evolve not in a strictly legal sense. It's supposed to be a society re-thought.

Maybe we can educate the LEOs.

& for the record, our Wolfe was not "running around". He is an experienced and responsible swordsman. (Probably at least as much so as your honor guard.)
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Postby ygmir » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:24 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:"Peace Tied." Is this really a catagory that we could expect Washoe County Sheriffs to be up on? My guess is that it's a SCA thing that got put into some high fantasy novels, not something that exists in any legal sense.


Possibly Ren Faires and Sci-Fi conventions had it first, but 'tis neither hither nor thither. :)

Lots of things on the playa evolve not in a strictly legal sense. It's supposed to be a society re-thought.

Maybe we can educate the LEOs.

& for the record, our Wolfe was not "running around". He is an experienced and responsible swordsman. (Probably at least as much so as your honor guard.)


one can only hope he's better with an edged weapon than he is with a hammer :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:37 pm

Har-de-har-har. :lol:

To further delineate Wolfe's discovery, it was not his rashness with the sword on his hip, but a random burner who grabbed the hilt of his knife and waved it about. So "peace-bonding" (from the Norse sagas by the way) serves mostly to keep an unknown jerk from doing something stupid with your own blade.

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The young man took it, turned to one side, unfastened the peace straps and drew the sword.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:46 pm

Okay, I can see it working in a Viking sense. Where there would be lots of skilled violent people and there would be a common understanding of lawful behavior that could be enforce through custom and dishonoring of he who broke the law. (In case anyone's forgotten, "law" entered the English language courtesy of the norse/danish.)

However, I don't think we could educate ourselves about peace tying (I never read Jackrabbit speaks) in time for next years event--much less bring the BLM and sherrifs into it. So, I guess I have to turn down the snark, but I still don't see peace tying on the menu of useful options in this case.
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Postby robotland » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:23 am

theCryptofishist wrote: Where there would be lots of skilled violent people


...but OUTSIDE of the DPW Ghetto you're on yer own.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:59 am

Well, how do we settle things like this on teh playa. Radical self-exploitation and all that rot.

They don't hassle us about fire, because we have formed our own radically responsible society, and shown that we can handle fire safely. (Generally speaking of course.) You couldn't burn a 60-foot tall Man in downtown Pahrump, or run around naked in Reno. Black Rock City is a Temporary Autonomous Zone and we have been re-inventing society from day one.

End of rant. Please peace-tie your swords. When we have shown that we can play responsibly they will leave us to it.

Now if I can figure out how to peace-tie a katana, I'll be set...
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swords

Postby EspressoDude » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:26 am

the "OFFICIAL ANSWER" follows an inquiry last year in preparation for the "wedding party" that dragonfly jafe described. based on the following interchange with BLM, I did not bring mine.

email to blm:

Hello:

I have read the Notice of Temporary Closures and Prohibitions of Certain
Activities in the Federal Register and have a question regarding the
Definition of Weapons as described in Para K.2.a, specifically swords.

As part of a wedding to be held during the Burningman event, several of us
are going to be a military style honor guard and planned to use ceremonial
military or “Lodgeâ€
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Postby EspressoDude » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:55 am

link to the "special rules" published in the Federal Register, Vol. 74, No. 149, Wednesday August 5 2009, page 39102)

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/pdf/E9-18721.pdf
swords on page 3

here's a link to Friends of Black Rock page that has links to the fed map and other info:
http://blackrockdesert.org/friends/maps/2009-burning-man-blm-land-closure
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:36 pm

hey, here is maybe an official way to gain approval;

K. Weapons
1. Weapons.
(a) The possession of any weapon is
prohibited;
(b) The discharge of any weapon is
prohibited;
(c) The prohibitions above shall not
apply to county, state, tribal and federal
law enforcement personnel, or any
person authorized by federal law to
possess a weapon. Additionally ‘‘art
projects’’ that include weapons and are
sanctioned by BRC LLC will be
permitted after obtaining authorization
from the BLM authorized officer.


but it still isn't clear about unsharpened swords (like mine were - no cutting edge at all, and the catalog description is "unsharpened sword", so I felt confident a good lawyer would get me off);

2. Definitions:
(a) Weapon means a firearm,
compressed gas or spring powered
pistol or rifle, bow and arrow, cross
bow, blowgun, spear gun, hand thrown
spear, sling shot, irritant gas device,
electric stunning or immobilization
device, explosive device, any
implement designed to expel a
projectile, switch blade knife, any blade
with a sharpened or cutting edge and
which is greater than 12 inches in
length from the tip of the blade to the
edge of the hilt or finger guard nearest
the blade
(e.g., swords, dirks, daggers,
machetes), or any other weapon the
possession of which is prohibited by
state law


...but, I would never bring a sword I valued to BM anyways, and there really is no justification for a sharpened sword (unless required for an art project ala Gallager).

I would also suggest that if you are going to "peace bond" your sword, suggesting that the weapon will never be removed during the event, you should just have a scabbard with a decorative hilt attached (no blade at all). It will look just the same, perform just the same, but there will be no possible issues with LEO's.

YMMV, be safe!
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:10 pm

Everything you do at Burning Man is art.
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Postby ygmir » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 am

*noting dancer photo at barbarian camp, '09*

well, yes Dougly,,,,,but then again, your camp did have the advantage......

*noting said photo closely resembles LF, with a tan*

Image
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Postby Sage » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:15 am

Thanks guys for all of the responses and I think that I will just bring a fake or costumed piece of wood now since it seems there are more then enough rules on not having real swords.
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Postby Bob » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:50 pm

Image

Wonder if these are still on eBay.
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Postby littleflower » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:24 pm

ygmir wrote:*noting dancer photo at barbarian camp, '09*

well, yes Dougly,,,,,but then again, your camp did have the advantage......

*noting said photo closely resembles LF, with a tan*

Image


laughing forest? likely follower? limping farmhand? listless fairy?
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:07 pm

Looked more like this:
Image

as I recall.
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