Is democracy fading away,,,, should it ?

All things outside of Burning Man.

Postby can't sit still » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:25 am

We're all familiar with the old saying, "who will police the police?"
That begs the question "who will police the politicians?
The answer used to be,,,, the voters. That's currently not working very well. The Pols hide most of what they're doing. And, WE don't take the time to check up on them and throw them out of office. We're too busy.
Suppose there was a group in power that was solely responsible for policing the politicians?

Here are some very good ideas from Sun Yat Sen. I'll extract a couple of quotes.
"The true meaning of constitutionalism was discovered by Montesquieu."
"I therefore advocate that the examinative and censorial powers should be placed on the same level with legislative, judicial and executive, thereby resulting in the five-fold separation of powers"

He's advocating the creation of a fully empowered government body acting as an "Internal Affairs" cop for GOV. He has a great historical perspective for his work. Here's the full text of his ideas.

Sun Yat-sen on "Fundamentals of National Reconstruction" (1923)

Sun Yat-sen, Fundamentals of National Reconstruction, (Taipei: China Cultura; Service, 1953), pp. 76-83, as excerpted in Mark A. Kishlansky, Sources of World History, Vol. 2 (New York: HarperCollins, 1995), p. 281-285
HISTORY OF THE CHINESE REVOLUTION

Following China's war with France (1883-1884) I made up my mind to devote myself to the revolution. In 1895 I started the first insurrection in Canton and the revolution of 1911 culminated in the establishment of the Republic.. Up to present the task of revolution, however, has not yet been completed. A span of thirty-seven years of my revolutionary work is to be chronicled by future historians from all manner of facts and incidents. An outline sketch is given below.

Principles of Revolution

The term Kemin, or revolution, was first used by Confucius. Incidents of a revolutionary' nature repeatedly happened in Chinese history after Tang (founder of the Shang Dynasty,. 1766 BCE) and Wu (founder of the Zhou Dynasty, 1122 BCE). In Europe revolutionary tides surged in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and they have since spread over the whole world. In due course they created republics, they conferred constitutions on monarchies. The principles which I have held in promoting the Chinese revolution were in some cases copied from our traditional ideals, in other cases modeled on European theory and experience and in still others formulated according to original and self-developed theories. They are described as follows:-

l. Principle of Nationalism

Revelations of Chinese history prove that the Chinese as a people are independent in spirit and in conduct. Coerced into touch with other people, they could at times live in peace with them by maintaining friendly relations and at others assimilate them as the result of propinquity. During the periods when their political and military prowess declined, they could not escape for the time from the fate of' a conquered nation, but they could eventually vigorously reassert themselves. Thus the Mongol rule of China (1260-1333 CE), lasting nearly a hundred years was finally overthrown by Tai Tse of the Ming dynasty and his loyal follower. So in our own time was the Manchu yoke thrown off by the Chinese. Nationalistic ideas in China did not come from a foreign source; they were inherited from our remote forefathers. Upon this legacy is based my principle of nationalism, and where necessary, I have developed it and amplified and improved upon it. No vengeance has been inflicted on the Manchus and we have endeavored to live side by side with them on a n equal footing. This is our nationalistic policy toward races within our national boundaries. Externally, we should strive to maintain independence in the family of nations, and to spread our indigenous civilization as well as to enrich it by absorbing what is best in world civilization, with the hope that we may forge ahead with other nations towards the goal of ideal brotherhood.

2. Principle of Democracy

In ancient China we had the Emperor Yao (2357-2258 BCE) and Emperor Shun (2258-2206 BCE) who departed from the hereditary system and chose their successors. We also had Tang and Wu who overthrew kingdoms by revolution. Preserved in our books are such sayings as :Heaven sees as the people see; Heaven hears as the people hear." "We have heard of a person named Zhou having been slain, we have not heard of a monarch having been murdered " "The people are most important, while the king is of the least importance." All these sayings ring with democratic sentiments. Since we have had only ideas about popular rights, and no democratic system has been evolved, we have to go to Europe and America for a republican form of government. There some countries have become republics and others have adopted constitutional monarchism, under which royal power has shrunk in the face of the rising demand for popular rights. Though hereditary monarchs have not yet disappeared, they are but vestiges and shadows of their former selves.
All through my revolutionary career I have held the view that China must be made a republic. There are three reasons. First, from a theoretical point of view, there is no ground for preserving a monarchical form of government, since it is widely recognized that the people constitute the foundation of a nation and they are all equal in their own country. In the second place, under Manchu occupation the Chinese were forced into the position of the vanquished, and suffered oppression for more than two hundred and sixty years. While a constitutional monarchy may not arouse deep resentment in other countries and can maintain itself for the time being, it will be an impossibility in China. This is from a historical point of view. A third reason may be advanced with an eye on the future of the nation. That in China prolonged periods of disorder usually followed a revolution was due to the desire of every insurgent to be a king and to his subsequent contention for the throne. If a republican government is adopted, there will be no contention. For these three reasons, I have decided for the republican form of government in order to realize the principle of democracy.

My second decision is that a constitution must be adopted to ensure good government. The true meaning of constitutionalism was discovered by Montesquieu. The threefold separation of the legislative, judicial, and executive powers as advocated by him was accepted in every constitutional country in Europe. On a tour of Europe and America I made a close study of their governments and laws and took note of their shortcomings as well as their advantages. The shortcomings of election, for instance, are not incurable. In the past China had two significant systems of examination and censoring and they can be of avail where the Western system of government and law falls short. I therefore advocate that the examinative and censorial powers should be placed on the same level with legislative, judicial and executive, thereby resulting in the five-fold separation of powers. On top of that, the system if the people's direct political powers should be adopted in order that the provision that the sovereign power is vested in the people may become a reality. In this way my principle of democracy may be carried out satisfactorily.

3. Principle of Livelihood.

With the invention of modern machines, the phenomenon of uneven distribution of wealth in the West has become all the more marked. Intensified by crosscurrents, economic revolution was flaring up more ferociously than political revolution. This situation was scarcely noticed by our fellow- countrymen thirty years ago. On my tour of Europe and America, I saw with my own eyes the instability of their economic structure and the deep concern of their leaders in groping for a solution. I felt that, although the disparity of wealth under our economic organization is not so great as in the West, the difference is only in degree, not in character. The situation will become more acute when the West extends its economic influence to China. We must form plans beforehand in order to cope with the situation. After comparing various schools of economic thought, I have come to the realization that the principle of state ownership is most profound, reliable and practical. Moreover. it will forestall in China difficulties which have already caused much anxiety in the West. I have therefore decided to enforce the principle of the people's livelihood simultaneously with the principles of nationalism and democracy, with the hope to achieve our political objective and nip economic unrest in the bud.

To sum up, my revolutionary principles in a nutshell consist in the Three Principles of the People and the Five Power Constitution. Those who have a clear knowledge of the general tendency of the world and the conditions in China will agree that my views are practical and must be put in practice.

II Fundamentals of Revolution

In the age of autocracy, the masses of the people were fettered in spirit and body so that emancipation seemed impossible Those who worked for the welfare of the people and were willing to sacrifice themselves for the success of revolution not only did not receive assistance from the people but were also ridiculed and disparaged. Much as they desired to be the guides of the people, they proceeded without followers. Much as they desired to be the vanguards, they advanced without reinforcement. It becomes necessary that., apart from destroying enemy influence, those engaged in revolution should take care to develop the constructive ability of the people. A revolutionary program is therefore indispensable.

According to my plan, the progress of our revolution should be regulated and divided into three stages: First, military rule; second, political tutelage; third, constitutional government. The first stage is a period of destruction, during which military rule is installed. The revolutionary: army is to break doom (as it did) Manchu despotism, sweep away official corruptions, and reform vicious customs.

The second stage is a transitional period, during which a provisional constitution (not the present. one) will be promulgated. Its object is to build a local self-government system for the development of democracy. The Hsien or district will be unit of self-government. When disbanded troops are disposed of and fighting ceases, every district should accept the provisional constitution, which will regulate the rights and duties of the people and the administrative powers of the revolutionary government. It will be in force for three years, at the end of which period the people will choose their district magistrates. Even before the expiration of the period, the people in a district may be empowered to choose their own magistrate and become a complete self-governing body on the following conditions:

That the self-government bureau of the said district has already cleaned the district of its long-standing corruptions; that it has succeeded in getting more than half of its population to understand the Three Principles of the People and devote themselves to the republic; that. it has fulfilled the minimum requirements of the provisional constitution in regard to census-taking, residence registration, police, health, education and road-building. In reference to the self-government body, the revolutionary government may exercise the power of political tutelage only in accordance with the provisional constitution. Six years after the whole nation is restored to peace and order, each district which has attained complete self-government. may elect. one delegate, and these delegates will form the People's Congress to adopt the five-power constitution.

The central government will have five yuan or boards. The five yuan. will be (1) The Executive Yuan, (2) The Legislative Yuan, (3) The Judicial Yuan, (4) The Examination Yuan, and (5) The Censor Yuan. Following the promulgation of the constitution, citizens of the various districts will elect the President by vote for the formation of the Executive Yuan, and elect representatives for the formation of the Legislative Yuan. The heads of the three other yuan will be appointed by the President with the consent of the Legislative Yuan, but they will not be responsible to the President and the Legislative Yuan. All the five yuan will be responsible to the People's Congress. Members of a yuan, in case of failure to discharge their duties, may be impeached before the People's Congress by the Censor Yuan. In case the members of the Censor Yuan fail in their duties, the Congress will directly impeach them and remove them. The duty of the Congress is solely to attend to the amendment of the constitution and the punishment of public servants. The qualification of the employees in the Congress and the five yuan as well as be high and junior officials of the whole nation will be determined by the Examination Yuan. Following the adoption of the five-power constitution and the election of the President and representatives, the revolutionary government will be turned over to the President elected by the people, whereupon the period of political tutelage will terminate.

The third stage, which marks the completion of national reconstruction, will usher in constitutional government. During this period the self-governing bodies in the various districts should exercise the direct political powers of the people. In district political affairs citizens should have the rights of universal suffrage, initiative, referendum and recall. In national political affairs they should. while directly exercising the right of election, delegate the three other rights to their representatives in the People's Congress. This period of constitutional government marks the completion of national reconstruction and the successful conclusion of the revolution.

If we can proceed according to the revolutionary fundamentals that have been briefly out-lined, not only can we clean the Augean stable of autocracy and carry out the rights of the people, but we can also strengthen and safeguard the constructive power of the people against the manipulations of politicians and the unscrupulousness of militarists. It becomes obvious that the principles of revolution must depend upon the fundamentals of revolution for a thorough realization.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
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Postby littleflower » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:53 am

china?

china is a model for democracy?

are you insane? what country will you choose for your next post exalting the virtues of revolution? cuba? russia? iran? venezuela? all revolutionaries do is remove power from one corrupt group and give it to another, possibly even more corrupt group.

what's really, truly funny about this barrage of revolutionary posts is that they come after a massive change in our government. i walked through georgetown last month, and was very amused to find that half of the houses had either "obama" signs or "for sale" signs. there are a lot of well-entrenched people in the congress, yes ... but it's their people who keep them there. my own congressman ran unopposed ... not for lack of democracy, but because 70-80% of my district feel well represented. i am one of the minority. so what? should i protest because *my* voice is not heard, or should i acquiesce to the majority, who have voices of their own?

the chinese can't even talk about their government and feel safe ... i read that in the lonely planet guide, not to talk politics with the chinese, because it makes them uncomfortable. talk about big brother. i am close to a chinese woman whose brother is a government official. she tells me that the chinese gov't is terribly corrupt, and the people are NOT happy about it, but they can't do a thing about it. no elections, no free press, plenty of undercover police. they talk politics only in their homes, with family, and even then, not much. there's no point.

could you please find a better example?
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Postby can't sit still » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:04 am

Could you please find your brain?
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
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Postby littleflower » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:11 am

i know exactly where my brain is, dear.

i also know how to keep my ego from clouding my common sense.
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Postby jkisha » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:14 am

littleflower wrote:i know exactly where my brain is, dear.

i also know how to keep my ego from clouding my common sense.


you go girl!!!!!!!


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Postby ygmir » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:21 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:Most militias consist of mis-informed out-of-shape and badly-trained yahoos. What dictator would be afraid of that?


yeah, but, a fat guy with a gun is just as deadly as Mr. Universe............no matter what he knows.............

Rules of Government:

1.
don't piss off the peasants, they've got the numbers
2. if you're going to piss them off, dis-arm them first............

"the sword of freedom is honed by those that live on the edge"

"the line between freedom and tyranny is drawn with lead".


I think there are many more examples, as referred to earlier, of violence, and the threat of same, keeping government, or "the people" in line.............
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:19 am

Don't you think that ignorant people can be misled into attacking one's political enemies, thinking that they are the enemies of freedom?
I submit that this happens much more often around the world than we care to admit. Are you Hutu or Tutsi?
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
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Postby littleflower » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:28 am

now, there's a question ... which side is better armed? if we have to have a revolution, i want to be on the winning side....
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Postby jkisha » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:39 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:Don't you think that ignorant people can be misled into attacking one's political enemies, thinking that they are the enemies of freedom?
I submit that this happens much more often around the world than we care to admit. Are you Hutu or Tutsi?


LOL AROUND THE WORLD??? It happens here everyday. (Just look at the rhetoric of the past election.)

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Postby Ugly Dougly » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:57 am

So the difference with a militia is that they are better armed.
And willing to shoot whoever they think are the "bad guys".
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
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Postby Sensei » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:02 am

Efficiency and progress is ours once more
Now that we have the neutron bomb
Its nice and quick and clean and gets things done
Away with excess enemy
But no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home

The sun beams down on a brand new day
No more welfare tax to pay
Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light
Jobless millions whisked away
At last we have more room to play
All systems go to kill the poor tonight

Gonna
Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight

Behold the sparkle of champagne
The crime rates gone
Feel free again
O lifes a dream with you, miss lily white
Jane fonda on the screen today
Convinced the liberals its okay
So lets get dressed and dance away the night

While they
Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight

- Dead Kennedys
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Postby ygmir » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:39 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:So the difference with a militia is that they are better armed.
And willing to shoot whoever they think are the "bad guys".

I'm not clear on what you're saying here.
diffrence? from what?
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Postby Box Burner » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:50 am

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -- John Stuart Mill

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson

"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid." -- Ronald Wilson Reagan, 1982

"The greatest menace to freedom is an inert people." -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis

"I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical." -- Thomas Jefferson, January 30, 1787

"The right to revolt has sources deep in our history." -- Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

"When your response to everything that is wrong with the world is to say, 'there ought to be a law,' you are saying that you hold freedom very cheap." -- Dr. Thomas Sowell

"It's important to realize that whenever you give power to politicians or bureaucrats, it will be used for what they want, not for what you want."-- Harry Browne

"The United States was supposed to have a limited government because the founders knew governmental power attracts swarms of crooks, demagogues and despots as surely as horse manure attracts swarms of horseflies." -- Rick Gaber


"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -- Patrick Henry, Virginia's Ratification convention, 1788

"When they took the 4th amendment away, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the 6th amendment away, I was quiet because I had never been arrested. When they took the 2nd amendment away, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken away the 1st amendment, and all I can do is be quiet." -- Fred Albury

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to always be kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1743-1826

"Democracy is defended in 3 stages. Ballot Box, Jury Box, Cartridge Box." -- Ambrose Bierce

"Liberty is preserved with 4 boxes: soap, jury, ballot, and cartridge." -- Dan Skinner

"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." -- Edward Abbey

"The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." -- Henry St. George Tucker, in Blackstone'ss 1768 Commentaries on the Laws of England

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people ... To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason (who opposed ratification oof the Constitution without the Bill of Rights)

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
-- Mohandas Ghandi.

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

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Postby ygmir » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:42 am

great quotes BB.
Thanks.
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Postby can't sit still » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:54 am

Excellent quotes !!! The one by Gandhi is VERY surprising. For Gandhi to comment on the value of arms is a real departure.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:55 am

There is a quote from Gandhi that I seem to have misplaced at the moment, where he says to the effect of: "Non-violent resistance should not be chosen because you are afraid. It's better to fight than to be a coward."

So glad to see so many service veterans joining us here. ;)
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Postby can't sit still » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:02 pm

Here's something that I sure as hell didn't vote for;

"Unfortunately, YOU CAN'T LEAVE.

"Wait a minute. This is America, land of the free, right?

"Not so fast... The US government will track US citizens everywhere to get tax money. If you leave to work in another country, you still pay US income taxes. America and North Korea are the only countries that tax you on your worldwide income.

"If it gets bad enough, you can just give up your citizenship, right? Nope, you can't do that either. At least, you can't do it without paying a potentially massive 'exit tax.'

"The exit tax acts like an estate tax. If you want to give up your citizenship, you have to give up nearly half your wealth above a certain level. The Economist magazine calls it 'America's Berlin Wall.' Nice, eh?

"Want some more nice? Once you're gone, you're not legally allowed to come back and visit family and friends. Yes, if the government decides you have renounced citizenship for tax purposes, a federal law prohibits you from entering the country ever again. (You can look up the rule under 8 USC 1182(a)(10)(E).)

"You can escape states with oppressive taxes. But 'escaping' the US - the land of the free - is much more difficult. And you can bet it won't get any easier as the government needs more and more of your income to pay its bills."
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
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Postby littleflower » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:32 pm

can't sit still wrote:... The US government will track US citizens everywhere to get tax money. If you leave to work in another country, you still pay US income taxes. America and North Korea are the only countries that tax you on your worldwide income.


link?

it's not so simple .... there is a foreign earned income exclusion as well as a foreign tax credit ... either could result in -0- U.S. taxes.

a lot of countries charge far more in taxes.....

not that i'm not for decreasing taxes ... but c'mon .... this one is a no brainer for anyone who knows anything about tax ...
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Postby ygmir » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:53 pm

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Postby gyre » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:26 pm

littleflower wrote:
can't sit still wrote:... The US government will track US citizens everywhere to get tax money. If you leave to work in another country, you still pay US income taxes. America and North Korea are the only countries that tax you on your worldwide income.


link?

it's not so simple .... there is a foreign earned income exclusion as well as a foreign tax credit ... either could result in -0- U.S. taxes.

a lot of countries charge far more in taxes.....

not that i'm not for decreasing taxes ... but c'mon .... this one is a no brainer for anyone who knows anything about tax ...

Some experts say that utilizing this can be too costly if you don't have a high income.
So you can be stuck with two tax bills.
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Postby littleflower » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:58 am

gyre wrote:
littleflower wrote:
can't sit still wrote:... The US government will track US citizens everywhere to get tax money. If you leave to work in another country, you still pay US income taxes. America and North Korea are the only countries that tax you on your worldwide income.


link?

it's not so simple .... there is a foreign earned income exclusion as well as a foreign tax credit ... either could result in -0- U.S. taxes.

a lot of countries charge far more in taxes.....

not that i'm not for decreasing taxes ... but c'mon .... this one is a no brainer for anyone who knows anything about tax ...


Some experts say that utilizing this can be too costly if you don't have a high income.
So you can be stuck with two tax bills.


baloney .... another link i would love to see.
the foreign earned income exclusion is for earned income up to $87,600 ... ie, not high income. and the foreign tax credit is a fairly difficult form to fill out, i guess, but my pop gets a little one for the bit of foreign dividends he receives, maybe a $10 credit on $80 income...
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Postby gyre » Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:39 am

No link.
A book on dual citizenship with Canada.
I hope they're wrong.


How to Move to Canada
A Primer for Americans
Terese Loeb Kreuzer with Carol Bennett


http://www.howtomovetocanada.net/disc.htm
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Postby gyre » Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:42 am

littleflower wrote:
gyre wrote:
littleflower wrote:
can't sit still wrote:... The US government will track US citizens everywhere to get tax money. If you leave to work in another country, you still pay US income taxes. America and North Korea are the only countries that tax you on your worldwide income.


link?

it's not so simple .... there is a foreign earned income exclusion as well as a foreign tax credit ... either could result in -0- U.S. taxes.

a lot of countries charge far more in taxes.....

not that i'm not for decreasing taxes ... but c'mon .... this one is a no brainer for anyone who knows anything about tax ...


Some experts say that utilizing this can be too costly if you don't have a high income.
So you can be stuck with two tax bills.


baloney .... another link i would love to see.
the foreign earned income exclusion is for earned income up to $87,600 ... ie, not high income. and the foreign tax credit is a fairly difficult form to fill out, i guess, but my pop gets a little one for the bit of foreign dividends he receives, maybe a $10 credit on $80 income...

So to be clear, your father has a relatively low total income and doesn't use a tax consultant?
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Postby littleflower » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:17 pm

gyre wrote:
littleflower wrote:
gyre wrote:
littleflower wrote:
can't sit still wrote:... The US government will track US citizens everywhere to get tax money. If you leave to work in another country, you still pay US income taxes. America and North Korea are the only countries that tax you on your worldwide income.


link?

it's not so simple .... there is a foreign earned income exclusion as well as a foreign tax credit ... either could result in -0- U.S. taxes.

a lot of countries charge far more in taxes.....

not that i'm not for decreasing taxes ... but c'mon .... this one is a no brainer for anyone who knows anything about tax ...


Some experts say that utilizing this can be too costly if you don't have a high income.
So you can be stuck with two tax bills.


baloney .... another link i would love to see.
the foreign earned income exclusion is for earned income up to $87,600 ... ie, not high income. and the foreign tax credit is a fairly difficult form to fill out, i guess, but my pop gets a little one for the bit of foreign dividends he receives, maybe a $10 credit on $80 income...

So to be clear, your father has a relatively low total income and doesn't use a tax consultant?


that is correct. he has always done his own return. i just looked up turbo tax, their basic service ($29.95) does a foreign tax credit.

as for the earned income exclusion, i know someone who worked overseas, his company provided tax help for their foreign employees. i think that's pretty common.

anyone can learn how to do a tax return, you know .... i know some fairly wealthy people who do their own, they just don't like paying people to do what they can do themselves. and if you really need advice, you can afford a preparer ... unless you are looking at some of the low income credits, which can be pretty complicated ... but i think there are people who help with those.
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Postby TomServo » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:34 pm

Anarchy anyone? Just wait till my court case is over.

Kinda stupid that we have to come up with systems to be RULED by, but so it is.
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Postby gyre » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:36 pm

Canada and the usa used to do dual taxation.
Now the exemption is supposed to apply.
I think the issue occurs when working in a third country while holding dual citizenship.
How did he end up with Canadian citizenship?


Also, it sounds like Canada taxes worldwide too.
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Postby can't sit still » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:00 pm

Sorry, no link. It came from Bill Bonner at the Daily Reckoning.
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Postby TomServo » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:01 am

Were not really a democracy. Why don't we strive for that?
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Postby ygmir » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:05 am

IIRC, a "real" democracy isn't workable with our size population.........

the representative republic model seems more efficient......

I'd say a big problem is not having term limits.........

the founders envisioned a "house" that was ordinary citizens, serving for two years, and, going home.........closer "in touch" with their constituents, and, not to come back.........new blood all the time.

the senate for "professionals", as far as needing people who have experience and how the "system" works.

and, I'd say, that's why the "power of the purse" is given to the house........
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Postby can't sit still » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:34 pm

The world has lots of different management systems. Democracy is only one. Many of these systems are not coping very well with the explosion in IT. Here's a good article exploring these problems;

http://thesystemisblinkingred.blogspot.com/
"As nations fall victim to fiscal peril they will begin seeking administrative structures more suited to containing the many paradoxes of informationalism. These nations will look to models, and two will stand out clearly: the American model, which is slow but open; and the Chinese model, which is quick but repressive. Which shall prevail? "
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