NO KIDS ALLOWED!

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

NO KIDS ALLOWED!

Postby RaineFX » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:34 pm

CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED into the BLACK ROCK CITY!!! I've witnessed Poor Children suffering in the Playa Dust an conditions. Its simply Child Neglect and Abuse! Pervs are out there! I'm not saying everyone is a Perv Peeps...but, Reading a rock at the WISHING WELL disturbed me! Yeah do what you want but don't expose a child and take away there innocene!
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Postby Sage Venkman » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:35 pm

Some of those kids were conceived at Burning Man. Who is to say they don't belong there when they were made there?
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Creation

Postby RaineFX » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:50 pm

Yeah I may have been created at a brothel down the street, maybe in a bar, possibly at a rave, maybe by rape, but, don't mean i should go there cause I was made there...
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Postby Zulegoona » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:32 pm

This was my sixth Burn and from my experiences at Burning Man I’d have to say it is a wholesome place, a place all people can escape the twisted reality they live in their day to day lives and become whole as a part of a loving community working and playing together. A celebration of creativity and personal expression. self reliance combined with a unity forged in a harsh environment. I’ve seen children of all ages shine and open the hearts of all who’ve shared their burns with them. Children provide a wholeness to the community as do the very old. Burning Man is more than just a party for a great many of us, if that’s all it is to you maybe you’re missing the point. It’s a lot of hard work, work that goes on year round in preparation, fun rewarding work because of the people we do it with and for but work none the less and to have whole families sharing in the toil along with the joy reflects a positive core value of family and community.
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Re: NO KIDS ALLOWED!

Postby goathead » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:48 pm

RaineFX wrote:CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED into the BLACK ROCK CITY!!! I've witnessed Poor Children suffering in the Playa Dust an conditions. Its simply Child Neglect and Abuse! Pervs are out there! I'm not saying everyone is a Perv Peeps...but, Reading a rock at the WISHING WELL disturbed me! Yeah do what you want but don't expose a child and take away there innocene!


Fuck You.

I wish more people brought out their kids. While there are some areas of the city they shouldn't visit, "as in MOST CITIES" the way people treat each other and KIDS in the BRC is simple amazing. If it is because of the nudity SO WHAT, I would bet they will grow up better adjusted to people then most other kids. If your use to seeing nudity you realize its no big deal. The art and science, the creativity of the BRC is GREAT.

By the way Kidsville ROCKS.....

Get a life.
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Postby brcprincess » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:12 am

What about the issue of some (not all) parents who are not responsible and who take their kids to BM? The parents get preoccupied (or wasted) and lose their kids. The Rangers get stuck with the job of trying to repatriate them. It's scary and dangerous for the kids.
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Postby goathead » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:23 am

and how is that any different then in the default world?

yes it sucks, yes its a pain in the rangers ass, but then if its to much of the pain in the ass why did they become a ranger? for the cool shirt?

we should kick them all out because a few suck?

hell some of us suck also, so maybe we should all just stay home.
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:59 am

I don't think kids should be allowed in BRC either.
It isn't because I personally think that... it's about liability. The more people bring kids, the more the event will be forced to tone down, the more restrictions and rules there will be.
Society is very protective of children. I really worry about Burning Man being able to exist the way it does with kids being allowed to roam around.

And by the way, saying a particular kid belongs there because that was where his parents fucked and conceived him is a really lame argument!
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:00 am

How often does that actually happen?
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Postby goathead » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:06 am

Captain

in the years I have been there I have never really seen a kid being allowed to roam, I know it does happen, but I have never seen it.

just like fights, I know they happen, BUT, in ten years I have never seen one.
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Postby AntiM » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:01 am

I've seen older kids, about ten and up, roaming in packs during the daytime. Mostly checking out the art or driving around in cute little mutant bike packs.

Kids are a part of the community and most parents do it right. I do get the liabiility thing, there's a reason the Utah burn is 18+, we just can't do what we do with the combination of kids and Utah law.
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Re: NO KIDS ALLOWED!

Postby curiousjosh » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:20 am

[quote="RaineFX"]CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED into the BLACK ROCK CITY!!! I've witnessed Poor Children suffering in the Playa Dust an conditions. Its simply Child Neglect and Abuse! Pervs are out there! I'm not saying everyone is a Perv Peeps...but, Reading a rock at the WISHING WELL disturbed me! Yeah do what you want but don't expose a child and take away there innocene![/quote]


Present a BETTER ARGUMENT.

they suffer because of playa dust?
oh please. everyone there is in playa dust. we're human and resilient.

take away their innocence? have you SEEN tv?
do you remember being in school, and the information children share with each other?


first, children are smart, and much sharper than you give them credit for.
in addition, your arguments are based on the relatively recent (historically) ideology that children should be kept in an ignorant bubble, and not allowed to see or understand adult interactions.

not all parents subscribe to this misused philosophy, and we can all roll our eyes any time an adult cries "think of the children!" when they really want to express their own discomfort.

So my question to you is...
what is it about black rock that made you uncomfortable?
you said you read something disturbing at the wishing well. What was it? what has you upset?
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Postby Artemis » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:42 am

This year every time I saw a child I was stuck by how cool it would be to be there as a child. My wish at the wishing well was to bring my children out there. I can't wait. (First I just need to have them... :-)

I too don't understand what you found so upsetting to which children shouldn't be exposed.
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Postby Fire_Moose » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:47 am

childrens cant be radically self reliant....sure maybe they kinda can...i dont care if kids are out there...but i sure as hell would hate to be responsible for more then just myself out there


(of course this is coming from a single 23 year old male)
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Postby Boijoy » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:51 am

I saw the cutest little girl in an electric pink barbie car all decorated up with a boom box strapped to the back.. her mom was peddling along side. I yelled wuu huuu art car !! & she gave me a "thumbs up". cutie !! I'm all for kids at Burning Man.. gives mom and dad an opportunity for " good parenting". :)
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Kids are burning man

Postby VeganChoirGirl » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:33 am

This was my first burn. I am a 23 year old single female with no desire to have children. However, I thought it was AMAZING to see all the kids at burning man. I never saw an unattended child and every kid seemed to be having a great time. I was hanging out at a friends theme camp, BRC Welding and Repair and a man came by for a repair with his friend's son, Crazy Colt. He was 11, it was his 2nd burn, and he loves it. He was a relaxed, well adjusted kid. He was gaining so much valuable life experience and exposure to creativity, acceptance, and beauty. How can anyone want to take that away from children?? I say more children should come to BRC...they are the future guys!
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:17 am

Don't feed the troll, folks.

Public sex is no longer allowed at BRC. Back when it was, I don't think it was a place for most people's kids.

But for Crom's sake, stop building walls and invented new laws for the playa! Don't we have enough of that crap?

I met several cool kids on the playa this year, 11-year-old Green Goblin for example. But are we all not children on the playa?
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Postby dr.placebo » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:40 am

I think that one could make a good case that kids would be better off watching the antics on the playa than watching TV.

I understand that some feel that their behavior is somehow restricted if kids are around. Given the age-neutral legal restrictions on public sex, defecation, and a few other items, though, I don't really understand what behavior they want to display that the kids would inhibit.

The issue of unattended children on the playa is real, but I think that it's a real issue in a Walmart, too. And the average city street is much more dangerous than just about anywhere on the playa.

In short, let the kids come. Parental neglect of kids should be an ejectable offense, but I've not seen it personally. The kids I've met are all pretty cool with the playa, and they don't get sloppy drunk.
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Postby marcgorcey » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:05 am

[quote]Public sex is no longer allowed at BRC.[/quote]

How do they stop it ? Do they lay (ahem) charges ?
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Think Again

Postby zorro sings » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:46 am

Chances are that the many BRC citizens who visited Club Verboten this year and last(Thank You!) had no idea that the camp probably existed only because of one of the people this poster would wish to ban.My son now 13,has been the main motivator for me as far as setting up camp the last couple of years.He loves Burning Man and anyone who saw him host and DJ the AC/DC dance party on Thursday knows he contributes.
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Postby littleflower » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:15 pm

childhood is brief ... and innocence, once lost, is gone forever.

i would never take a child to the playa. the fact that TV is terrible is not an argument, either. some of the costumes and art i saw would not be allowed on TV anyhow! let kids be kids, i say ... all kids do is learn ... can't they wait a bit to see some of this stuff? the playa is primarily an adult place, and i don't understand how anyone can argue otherwise.... not just sex, but drinking, drugs, &c ...

that said, i am not for banning them. as dougly said, we thoroughly enjoyed our green goblin friend, as well as other kids, at barbarian camp, and i know that there are areas like kidsville that are relatively protected. the creativity and freedom of the place are amazing, the people helpful and friendly and accepting, the atmosphere happy and loving.

but the innocence .... that will always be an issue for me ...
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Postby pandasex » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:15 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:I don't think kids should be allowed in BRC either.
It isn't because I personally think that... it's about liability. The more people bring kids, the more the event will be forced to tone down, the more restrictions and rules there will be.
Society is very protective of children. I really worry about Burning Man being able to exist the way it does with kids being allowed to roam around.

And by the way, saying a particular kid belongs there because that was where his parents fucked and conceived him is a really lame argument!



I agree....i fear a kid being hurt or killed by accident and all of losing BRC. Bottom line BRC is dangerous for grown adults it should be TOO dangerous for children. I dont take my son to parties or when im going on a hard long hike. How is BRC different? Just because it CAN be a loving place doesnt make it a perfect place for kids.
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Postby spectabillis » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:38 pm

marcgorcey wrote:
Public sex is no longer allowed at BRC.

How do they stop it ? Do they lay (ahem) charges ?


ts always been illegal to have sexual intercourse openly on public and federal land, but it was never a big deal, used to happen quite a bit in various places. as the presence of law enforcement officials grew, thier complaints were raised with various groups - including complaints about narcotic use and dangerous driving. so it was obvious to some of us what was eventually going to happen, that these things would slowly go away and take much of what bm was with it.

but there were also groups of others who came together to tackle these various issues on thier own, as part of a self-sustaining community without outside interference. for a while it worked, and bman had viable proof at forming its own functioning infrastructure and community that was independant of any legalized or official one.

but that didnt last for a few reasons... and you can still see it happening here.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:52 pm

This here barbarian doesn't have any urchins, but if I did, the divide would not between innocence and whatever its opposite is, but between ignorance and knowledge.

Just as any other member of my camp, they would be responsible for their own behavior and safety. (And I presume that's how Green Goblin was raised.)

...Come to think of it, if I had kids, they would be the utmost hazards on the playa! :D
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Postby jkisha » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:44 pm

Another rediculous argument. If you don't want your kids on the playa, don't bring them. But stop bitching about those that want to bring their kids. Seeing someone naked isn't going to distroy inocence. This isn't the garden of eden, so stop all that puritanical preaching already. There isn't anything "shameful" that happens at burning man. So let's take a bite out of that apple--the younger the better.

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Postby chiefdanfox » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:57 pm

I think we should ban kids altogether. Too many people on this planet. Kids are definitely, completely anti-LNT. Kids are about as un-green as say, piling a bunch of ridiculous junk into a vehicle, driving thousands of miles out into nowhere just to burn it. Good thing that doesn't happen on a regular basis.
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Postby littleflower » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:59 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:This here barbarian doesn't have any urchins, but if I did, the divide would not between innocence and whatever its opposite is, but between ignorance and knowledge.


methinks you would say that innocence and knowledge are mutually exclusive .... silly barbarian ... :twisted:

considering that we are all born knowing *nothing*, the question is: do we cram as much information into our brains as we possibly can in any haphazard manner ... or do we decide what to learn, and how, and when?

an art teacher recently hit on this in a lecture .... he could tell us what to do until he turned green, but it would still be nothing but information to us, rather than knowledge that we could use ... knowledge that builds on other knowledge ... knowledge that we would have to figure out for ourselves, with his info as a guide ...

kids have enough to learn without piling adult activities on top, whether explained or unexplained. time enough for that stuff in later years .... why push it? it's more likely to create only confusion...

but, again, i agree that there are plenty of good things for kids to learn at burning man.... and, hopefully, more protected parts of the city than where i was ....
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Postby Kinetik V » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 pm

Maybe someone should start a thread titled: I want to see "_________" BANNED at Burning Man because I want my beliefs to trump yours....

My fiancee and I fully intend to bring our new baby to Burning Man next year and well beyond that. Rather than shelter and coddle him as he grows older we intend to immerse him in the experience, educate him on what he's exposed to out there, and we won't tolerate anyone telling us how to raise our child and trying to dictate what we should or should not be doing with him, period.

In other words we're taking the in your face approach. I've also brought a teenager out to the playa and I remember people saying that it was a bad idea several years back....well it didn't corrupt her, in fact she's testing to become a member of either the Olathe, KS Police Dept and the Kansas Highway Patrol here in a few days (she's already a Corrections Officer now)...her Burning Man experience didn't hurt her, in fact she says it strengthened her. So...in this house the no kids at BRC idea will get shot down every time. We know better...it can be one of the most powerful, wonderful things you can expose a child to!
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Postby jkisha » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:26 pm

The nice thing about kids is what they are too young to understand usually goes right over their heads.

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Postby dongiovanni » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:19 pm

I disagree.

In my first burn, I got up one day early in the morning to hit the potties. The sun was just peeking over the mountains. And I saw a young woman, naked, with a child in her arms, also naked, standing on the playa and admiring the sunrise. Long hair, beautiful smile; a vision of a goddess.

That is, by far, the most beautiful thing I've seen on the playa.

If and when I have kids, I'll definitely take them to BM. It's a great experience. Just like any other place, you need some supervision. Heck, kids need to be supervised at home too!
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