A question of ethics...

A question of ethics...

Postby Patrick Hand » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:56 am

OK.. The idea sounded so simple when I came up with it....

at about 3 ish,,, I'd go to Center Camp and buy some ice,,, and then about 4 find someone interesting to have a vodka wet dirty martini with.... well I found a friend that donated a bottle of vodka.... I then bought the vermouth and olives.... my frend will provide a picture of himself (and probably a very silly one( and a camera.... )would it be inpolite to ask if I could take a picture of them enjoying the martini to give to my friend ?

Now I'm a "ham"... "can I take your picture.".. I have no problem with that....

Whats messing my mind up..... has this project become a "trade".....

from my perspective, I don't thinks so... the pictures only go to the guy that gave me a bottle of very good vodka... they won't be sold or posted anywhere..... he just gets to see interesting people drinking his vodka......

Flat out.....

No shit... there I am knee deep in Playa dust, and asking someone if they would like a chilled dirty, wet martini..... and can I take a picture of you enjoying it..... (not for commercial gain or anything like that... just so my friend can see people having a nice drink (Of his Vodka...)).....

Dk I cuddle it up and call it an "Art Project".... I already know I will tell the truth about it......DO you what a dirty wet martini, and can I take a picture of you enjoying it for my friend that bought the bottle of very good vodka.....


What's bothering me, is... am I trading something... or am I just giving it away... but with a photo thanks....


Like I typed,,,, the original idea sounded so simple.....
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Postby oneeyeddick » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:07 am

You are a wierdo.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
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Postby Sham » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:15 am

This all sounds very nice and simple. Performance art can stretch the rules of gifting a bit. (if you want one of my free bike locks, you may have to sing a song)
People may be leary of accepting alcohol that may be tainted. Drugging is a bit of a problem at some bars. Also, be sure that the person receiving the drink is of legal age. Some people don't carry IDs on the playa and the police may give you shit if they catch wind of this.
As for me, I trust you and I am of legal age and I would love a dry martini with two olives please. Don't forget the little plastic sword to hold the olives!! :D

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Postby C.f.M. » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:12 am

Oh wow, people giving away alcohol? Great idea! Hopefully it will catch on.

I think it is a cute idea. I took a picture of my friend to a regional, once, and took a picture of her picture in all sorts of scenarios.

I like garlic and blue cheese stuffed olives...you have a whole bottle, I say take pictures of people until it is gone.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:32 pm

I think it's fine. I suppose we could put to the acid test: If they won't allow the picture are you going to take the martini out of their hands? But it's so easy to say: "My friend can't be here, so please let him have a drink with you."
You know, Mikey of Mikey's Hug Deli tells the story of how he had the idea and it didn't work until he started asking for two compliments instead of giving out the hugs for free. No Commerce is powerful, and I'd hate for money or even barter to get more traction on the playa, but I don't see that you're mining that vein. For what it's worth.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:21 pm

You are always free to step back and say, "such is not the way of my people".
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
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Postby OnceTheDustClears » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:01 pm

You're worrying too much.
It's fine.
Relax and go have a martini.
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Pictures transcend individuals

Postby Marscrumbs » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:50 pm

Don't be so selfish, some civil war vet had to stand still for twenty minutes for us to see his likeness today. Taking pictures is a form of archiving sacred acts and favor all thoses hundred of years from now seeking to understand our 21st tribe. Was that shaken or stirred?
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Postby Patrick Hand » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:17 pm

Was that shaken or stirred?


Shaken of course....
until your fingers go numb from the cold...
that way you get all of the fine ice chips properly chilling the martini.....
It should pour out milky white...
You can't "Bruise" a martini... that story started with some Barbarian that just wanted a shot of Gin..... :D
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:13 am

Photography is soul stealing.
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
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Postby Jiva » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:33 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:Photography is soul stealing.


Yeah, well, a martini is properly made with gin. But what are you going to do?
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Postby Patrick Hand » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:21 pm

Yeah, well, a martini is properly made with gin. But what are you going to do?

Well I will have Gin (for my Gin and Tonics... After all, I am Civilized...)
But the Vodka is "good stuff: not just Stolli, but Monopolowa

But I'm flexible.... "Hey do you want a gin martini made from cheaper gin, or would you prefer a Vodka Martini made with good Vodka? "
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Postby ygmir » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:31 pm

Patrick Hand wrote:
Yeah, well, a martini is properly made with gin. But what are you going to do?

Well I will have Gin (for my Gin and Tonics... After all, I am Civilized...)
But the Vodka is "good stuff: not just Stolli, but Monopolowa

But I'm flexible.... "Hey do you want a gin martini made from cheaper gin, or would you prefer a Vodka Martini made with good Vodka? "


says the card player........
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Postby Eric2 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:04 pm

"Martini" is just American for "very large glass of gin or vodka with a bit of stuff in it to make it look like you don't have a drink problem".
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:34 pm

Gin is the word for "Vodka disguised to look like medicine".
Martini is the word for "keeping Gin from tasting like medicine".
Vodka Rocks is the word for "who the hell caresif I have a drinking problem?"

Bottoms up you guys, it's almost Friday.
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Postby fciron » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:25 pm

I, for one, am shocked that you would use alcohol to bribe people into allowing you to take their pictures. It is a shameful thing to take advantage of the weak-willed, gin-sodden masses in such a way.

Fie on you and your crass, commercialized pretense of art!

:P :P :P :P

It is a great idea! Quit looking for trouble and go round up some more quality booze!
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Re: A question of ethics...

Postby ArtGoddess8 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:24 pm

My two cents:

1. Did you make any promises to your friend (the one that gave you the bottle of alcohol)?
(For example, did he give it to you with the restriction that he/she wanted a picture from everyone that drank from it...or was that an idea you came up with to be able to share the playa with your friend?)

2. Are you offering people drinks as a gift or do you [i]expect[/i] them to pose for a picture in return?

You wrote:
[quote="Patrick Hand"]What's bothering me, is... am I trading something... or am I just giving it away...[/quote]

I would say that depends on your expectations.

If you are offering a person a drink only if they _____ (in this case let you take their picture) then it sounds like a trade that a person can choose to enter into or choose to tell you no.

...if you are offering them a drink regardless of how they answer the question about the photograph, then you are offering them a drink as a gift to them and asking them for a photo of them/you with them to share with your friend that bought the alcohol as a gift to them.

...basically the differentiation comes from whether or not you would still give them the gift (in this case a drink) if they did not wish to have their photo taken.

3. I think the only ethical issues in your decion are:
*What (if anything) does your friend that gave you the alcohol expect?
*What (if anything) do you expect?
*Please make sure to tell whoever you are asking to pose for a picture that that picture will be shared (as you said, not for commercial purposes, but with your friend...maybe they would even like to hear a little bit about your friend?).

Hope that helps,
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Postby BitterDan » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:35 pm

fciron wrote:I, for one, am shocked that you would use alcohol to bribe people into allowing you to take their pictures. It is a shameful thing to take advantage of the weak-willed, gin-sodden masses in such a way.

Fie on you and your crass, commercialized pretense of art!

:P :P :P :P

It is a great idea! Quit looking for trouble and go round up some more quality booze!


hahahahh I was going to say something to the same effect but not quite as eloquent.
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Additional commentary

Postby ArtGoddess8 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:46 pm

Gifting is the culture of Burning Man...but if you do decide that you do expect a trade (you give them a drink in exchange for them posing with you for a picture to give to your friend), then please make sure that that is clear in advance.

There is nothing worse than have someone give something to you THEN (once you're half way finished with the drink they gave you) expect you to do something or give something to them.

(However, I don't think it's a problem-at all-to give someone a gift, in this case a drink, then ask if you can have a photo with them....especially if you explain to them that the drink that they are drinking was given to you by a friend of yours who was unable to make it to the Playa...you want to be able to share the experience with them, so you were wondering if you could take a picture to share with them when you get home...that will likley lead into a short conversation about your friend...as long as there are no surprise expectations, it will likely leave everyone feeling happy-as I'm sure you initially intended back when things seemed simple. Hopefully things seem simple once again now, but if it is still bothering you...please post a reply.......)
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Postby C.f.M. » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:12 am

I have something, for your friend, on the odd chance we meet.

Also, gin + tonic (I take mine with lemon) = happiness.
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Postby Patrick Hand » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:44 am

The friend that gave me the vodka, (Oompah (fun story... but you gotta be there to hear it...) ) actully doesn't expect anything back... In the whole Burning Man thing... he understands it.... and he is a really cool guy...

I'm the one messing up on this....

The Idea...

At about 4:00 ish(the time .. not the street), I will find someone interesting, and ask if they would like a dirty wet vodka martini.... I will tell them that Oompah bought the bottle of vodka, and what a really really nice guy he is,,,, if they choose to let me take a picture... cool.... if not ... no problem also....(hey... just a hand holding the martini is kinda
funny....)

Oompah, understand the whole gifting thing.... even though he can't get to Burning Man... so if the camera came back with abosutly no picture on it.... he wouldn't care..... (He really is that kinda person)

I just thought some pictures would be nice.....

I ain't goinna worry about it... if it happens... cool... if not... hey... no problem......


But I still think is is goinna happen... that good old positive thinking....


Yeay Team....... I know I will find interesting people, and it will work......



cool...
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Postby ArtGoddess8 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:27 pm

Awesome...in that case, it sounds like a gift not a trade.

You wrote, "I'm the one messing up on this.... "

...but I don't think you're messing up, at all.

I think you're trying to prepare a gift to give to playa friends while also trying to put together a playa care package for your friend, Oompah, who isn't (for some reason) able to make it to the Playa this year....

I think your idea will end up to be a great deal of fun (for you, Oompah, and the person/people you invite...)....just relax...you're not doing anything wrong :-)

Another suggestion I have is that you might want to spend an hour (or however much time YOU want to spend) just going around taking pictures of art, asking people to pose for pictures for your friend Oompah that couldn't make it this year....etc...

Might be a fun way to meet people, you'll bring back some great memories, and even have some pictures to share with your friend(s) and/or family when you get back.

Keep up the positive thinking...it helps make life more fun :-)

...and you're right...you're going to the Playa...as long as you poke your head outside of your RV or tent, you are bound to meet/find interesting people!!! :-)

...just keep thinking positively and have a great Burn!
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Postby Deb Prothero » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:30 pm

Monopolowa is a really superior vodka. Whoever you find will enjoy it if they like a martini. I'm sure most burners would be thrilled to hear about your gift back to Oompah and would participate.

Now the serious question, is this art project registered? Have you listed the time and date in the WWW or the AltWWW? Vodka drinkers and martini fans want to know. No, actually, some of us NEED to know. :D
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:18 pm

"Random place at 4:00 pdt. Drink Martini. Have picture taken."

Or just go: "Serendipity, time and place unknown."

Hey, if you have a scanner you can get emails and send copies of the pics.
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