Thoughts on Commerce

Discuss the policies of ePlaya here.

Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:39 am

viewtopic.php?p=463505#463505

for some reason, this shit pisses me off..
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Postby AntiM » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:09 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?p=463505#463505

for some reason, this shit pisses me off..


I took it down. I had a feeling about it, but I don't have a way to look at apps. I should have asked him straight off, but it looks as if you came through.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:22 am

thanks AntiM, and i dont mean to be such an asshole, i long ago sold my soul to Steve Jobs, and hope matt does well, and sells his app to all 50,000 burners, since we inevitably will ALL have i-phones, but to advert it here is a very slippery slope indeed.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:29 am

You aren't at all out of line pointing it out. I can see how someone would look at the marketplace on the main site, then sign up for eplaya without actually reading the TOS to promote their product. There's a fine line held down in regionals and events, a very fine line. I've even taken established burners to task, and I always feel bad about it.
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Postby gyre » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:34 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:thanks AntiM, and i dont mean to be such an asshole, i long ago sold my soul to Steve Jobs, and hope matt does well, and sells his app to all 50,000 burners, since we inevitably will ALL have i-phones, but to advert it here is a very slippery slope indeed.

Nonsense.

If we had a commerce area, we could decide how and what type of commerce is allowed.
Anything irrelevant or annoying can always be booted off.
Many forums operate this way.

Marketers refusing to answer questions honestly always do more damage than benefit to themselves.
Bad reviews on forums have broken more than one company.


We can control content to playa only products or general interest to burners.
Or even products made or sold by burners only.

It is all up to us.
We get to comment about crap items too.
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Postby ygmir » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:02 am

gyre wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:thanks AntiM, and i dont mean to be such an asshole, i long ago sold my soul to Steve Jobs, and hope matt does well, and sells his app to all 50,000 burners, since we inevitably will ALL have i-phones, but to advert it here is a very slippery slope indeed.

Nonsense.

If we had a commerce area, we could decide how and what type of commerce is allowed.
Anything irrelevant or annoying can always be booted off.
Many forums operate this way.

Marketers refusing to answer questions honestly always do more damage than benefit to themselves.
Bad reviews on forums have broken more than one company.


We can control content to playa only products or general interest to burners.
Or even products made or sold by burners only.

It is all up to us.
We get to comment about crap items too.


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Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:41 am

this is why Gyre...

viewtopic.php?p=463611#463611


because dumb asses put shit like this up...
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Postby Da Mule » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:51 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:because dumb asses put shit like this up...


I would never do something like that.

And who in enumerating the things that they're grateful for in life (loving husband, children) would include a diagnostic kit? HUH?

But more importantly: who do you think would win in a battle of a monkey and a diagnostic kit?
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Postby gyre » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:54 am

And yet I don't feel threatened.
I've spotted plenty of spammers myself and we can keep booting off anyone sneaky.

A separate area would be easy to avoid too.
It isn't that hard to deal with.

And if anyone tries to post a popup, I will personally go to their home, drag the computer out into the street and smash it to bits at high noon.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:53 pm

A commerce section has been proposed to TPTB. They said no. Of course, I wasn't doing the proposing or getting the direct answers, but that's the basics. We ain't getting a commerce zone, no matter how simple it would be to control. So I bounce the direct commerce, and the sneaky commerce, and let the interactive events in the grey area slide as long as they stay confined to events and regionals.

A donation of a portion of the profits does not make it non-commerce. A donation of 100% of the proceeds? Likely and I'd still stick in a corner.
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Postby Toolmaker » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:40 pm

The secret loophole with commerce is that it has to be a rave event to be permitted on eplaya. Also themecamps are allowed to advertise commercial "fundraisers". Wedeliver figured out a great way to advertise all year long. He gives away some parking space right before and right after BM but gets to advertise his trailerpark/campground all year long. There are plenty of ways to post commerce on eplaya. The easiest to get away with would be a rave, they are totally untouchable and will remain listed as "regionals" regardless of the lack of regional status.

I say let all the commerce go.. why bother fighting the inevitable. I know I won't be reporting any commerce anymore.
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Postby AntiM » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:55 pm

You know, keeping the eplaya "pure" sucks ass. I got pummeled for knocking the music events down, so I quit pulling them. I do what I can.

As for individuals burners, yeah, well, if they contribute here year round, I don't get picky about what's down in the sigline too much. I could if it were demanded, but what's the point? I do get picky with one timers who aren't part of the eplaya herd.

You have a beef with wedeliver, take it up with him. Make a poll, pas out the picthforks. whatever.

So fire me. Moderating can be thankless as hell.
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Postby gyre » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:13 pm

No one has a problem with how you do things.
There are just some differing points of view of what eplaya is.

I don't think our excursion into universal reciprocity would be threatened by limited commerce outside of the playa.
I think some people are mostly concerned that it can't be controlled.


Antim, they should be giving you a whole block of tickets every year, up front and on the good side of the man.
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Postby Toolmaker » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:17 pm

AntiM wrote:You know, keeping the eplaya "pure" sucks ass. I got pummeled for knocking the music events down, so I quit pulling them.


I STILL get shit for being anti-commerce, so I have decided to ignore the commerce altogether from now on. Wedeliver was the wake up call for me, he is still singling me out for complaining about his commercial ventures years ago.

I'm just saying.. if anyone wanted to make some dough just throw a rave. I'm thinkin of doing a rave or two myself since they are such good moneymakers.
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Postby wedeliver » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:45 pm

Toolmaker wrote:
AntiM wrote:You know, keeping the eplaya "pure" sucks ass. I got pummeled for knocking the music events down, so I quit pulling them.


I STILL get shit for being anti-commerce, so I have decided to ignore the commerce altogether from now on. Wedeliver was the wake up call for me, he is still singling me out for complaining about his commercial ventures years ago.

I'm just saying.. if anyone wanted to make some dough just throw a rave. I'm thinkin of doing a rave or two myself since they are such good moneymakers.


I don't charge burners all year. tell me you are a burner and it's just like couch surfing, stay for free..

(I had no idea Toolmaker has such a hard on for me. makes me feel so special, I gotta read more threads)

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Postby oneeyeddick » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:06 am

wedeliver wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:When you plonk someone that usually means you stop responding to anything that the person posts.


Since I plonked him yesterday in a post above, I have not responded to him.


Oops, my bad, I didn't look at the timestamp, I thought this was all today's childish ramblings.
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Postby wedeliver » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:00 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:
wedeliver wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:When you plonk someone that usually means you stop responding to anything that the person posts.


Since I plonked him yesterday in a post above, I have not responded to him.


Oops, my bad, I didn't look at the timestamp, I thought this was all today's childish ramblings.


regrettably, I posted those childish ramblings yesterday.
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Postby SilverOrange » Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:02 pm

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Postby oneeyeddick » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:13 pm

today was a big day, 3 of them so far........
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Postby Dork » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:21 pm

Got it, thanks!
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Postby winebuff » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:16 pm

I vote for commerce in a restrained way. Anyone who abuses the right gets voted off the playa. Especially in this sucky economy, I think the true burners here who have something good to sell would be much appreciated.
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Postby AntiM » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:12 am

Unfortunately, we don't get to vote.
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Postby Here and there » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:35 pm

A thought ... sometimes, people are just going to do what they are going to do. You can get into a test of wills with them about it, and find that they'll never give up, or you can give them a place to do it where they won't bother anybody who doesn't want to be bothered. The first choice leaves one playing whacamole forever. The second leaves the mods with a little leverage, because they can say "do your thing outside of the appointed area, and we'll keep you out of the appointed area, as well".



A few possibilities ...


1. Create a spinoff board, off the ePlaya, where people can post their ads. Call it "The Souk" or something like that. Ask for volunteer mods. I'm sure you'll find somebody. But maybe somebody feels that this would taint the site? Then maybe you could do this ...


2. Have a page of links on ePlaya, to independently run Burning Man fora that have sections for buying and selling, links given out by the ePlaya staff, contingent on compliance with a few simple rules that practically nobody will object to. Like requiring a prominently visible link back to ePlaya, so burners can return here after they get done doing their shopping. If no such fora exist, yet, publicly mention that ePlaya is looking for such places to go into partnership with. There's an incentive for somebody to create such a board.

But perhaps nobody responds to the incentive, or you don't like the people who do. Then you might ...


3. Point people in the direction of this search page on Thisnext.com, a social shopping site already in existence, where burners are already selling and buying merchandise. Start by encouraging the use of one such site, and when the presence there has really gotten going, start linking to other such sites in the same way, so the community doesn't end up with all of its eggs in one basket. Startups do go under, and one needs to be prepared for that.

Advantage: Nobody in the community needs to do much of anything

Disadvantage: Burners wouldn't really be in control of something that could become important to the community, on a practical level. We all do buy and sell stuff before we go, in preparation for the trip. To do so in a burner-friendly environment would be nice.

That Burning Man would be driving a lot of their traffic and revenue would give the LLC some leverage with the other company, should somebody on it decide to try to create a hostile environment for burners and the LLC wishes to talk to management about that. Even if the LLC doesn't want to get involved, ePlaya could give the bad word about a bad experience a chance to travel. If a large contingent starts leaving a site and management finds out why, again, they might be motivated to act, again, ensuring a burner friendly environment would be established?

I've got to run, so I'll have to complete that thought later.
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Postby AntiM » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:00 am

"Eplaya staff"?
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Postby Here and there » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:25 pm

AntiM wrote:"Eplaya staff"?


You, Dork and the rest of the people who run this place. Not seeing where the mystery lies in that quote, AntiM, and I'm not so sure that you really do, either. If you're here to troll me again, we can cut this short, right now, and gosh, how wonderful it is that the mods do that here. Kind of like watching the guards rob the bank, isn't it?
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Postby Here and there » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:49 am

Here and there wrote:
AntiM wrote:"Eplaya staff"?


If you're here to troll me again, we can cut this short, right now, and gosh, how wonderful it is that the mods do that here.


If anybody is new to this situation, I'm referring to this thread, in which AntiM and a few of her friends responded to a simple bug report by creating drama, just for the sake of creating drama. Note the manner in which she did so. Those reading this who aren't members of the little friends or completely insane are going to have no trouble seeing that AntiM and her friends attacked without provocation, and were completely out of line. They might even wonder if this woman was using drugs, or had gone off some kind of medication. Understandable questions, until one reads this explanation of behavior on the board.


For the most part, I belive that if you just hang around for a few nasty comments, then you "pass the initiation" and get to play with the rest of us. I don't have any specific evidence at hand to prove this. But I do thry and say it with some frequency, in the hope that people will sit it out for the uncomfortable day.



In other words, it's hazing. One of the past mods replied with a little well placed skepticism.


and just who in the fuck says its worth the effort!?

its obvious the quality is low - if measured by the total number of posts its almost non-existent. people have to want to be part of it for your initiation ritual to work fishy, there has to be some compelling reason its worth it. its not, and that makes it rather pathetic.

you're mistaking not being able to take it with not wanting to be around loosers and assholes.



That's basically it. I expressed my agreement, setting my current policy of one strike and you're out. The practice of hazing is something that makes a teenager look bad, and we're seeing it out of a woman who looks like she's in her early 60s, old enough to know better and young enough to function. That's just sad. I'd block her, but she's a mod, and the system won't let me do that, so I'll have to wait until she gets put out to pasture or put to sleep or whatever gets done with moderators when their time has come.

If somebody is reading this and thinking "I went through it, so you should have to go through it", my response to that person is "get over your bad self". I expect to be treated like a human being, today, because that's an entitlement that I was born with, like everybody else. It is not a privilege that I have to earn. If others did submit to that kind of nonsense, sorry, but how very foolish of them to have done so. Their willingness to be foolish does not obligate anybody else to be foolish in turn.

May we get back on topic, AntiM? Or do you wish to play a few more games and then pretend to be a victim when you're called on them, just like you did last time? Because when I take time out of my day to offer you a suggestion as to how you might deal with a recurring problem, I'm doing you a favor, and I'm not going to take garbage out of you for doing so. If you can't start acting like the adult you were supposed to be 42 years ago, I'd like to know about that, now, before I waste any more time suggesting anything, at all, ever again.

Anything less than a 100% respectful response out of you and your associates will be all of the answer I need.
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Postby AntiM » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:06 am

I don't have direct contact with any staffer save Dork and the other volunteer mods, and on occasion, Action Girl.

From what response I have seen, primarily through Dork, the BMORG is not interested in any type of commerce attached to the eplaya. This thread was opened in hopes of bringing a commerce zone in, strictly moderated. The consistent answer has been "no".

My response was in the context that yes, the mods will see this. Dork doesn't monitor the boards to great extent, so he may or may not see it. As for senior staffers at HQ, I honestly do not expect them to see this unless either you or I direct them to this thread. I've never considered myself a "staffer" as I have no true authority and very limited access. I certainly have no influence on policy!

Here and There, I will do my best to reply to you in only the most serious way. Thank you for your input on the commerce issue.
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Postby AntiM » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:17 am

Oh, and respect? May I ask if I ever attacked you personally, making implications about your mental state or age? I have not.

They might even wonder if this woman was using drugs, or had gone off some kind of medication.


The practice of hazing is something that makes a teenager look bad, and we're seeing it out of a woman who looks like she's in her early 60s, old enough to know better and young enough to function. That's just sad. I'd block her, but she's a mod, and the system won't let me do that, so I'll have to wait until she gets put out to pasture or put to sleep or whatever gets done with moderators when their time has come.


Because when I take time out of my day to offer you a suggestion as to how you might deal with a recurring problem, I'm doing you a favor, and I'm not going to take garbage out of you for doing so. If you can't start acting like the adult you were supposed to be 42 years ago, I'd like to know about that, now, before I waste any more time suggesting anything, at all, ever again.
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Postby spectabillis » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:26 am

AntiM wrote:From what response I have seen, primarily through Dork, the BMORG is not interested in any type of commerce attached to the eplaya. This thread was opened in hopes of bringing a commerce zone in, strictly moderated. The consistent answer has been "no". ...
As for senior staffers at HQ, I honestly do not expect them to see this unless either you or I direct them to this thread. I've never considered myself a "staffer" as I have no true authority and very limited access. I certainly have no influence on policy!


she doth speak true words on this, so please keep in mind the tough situation volunteers are kept within the confines of the org and desires of the community.

the org owns this place, so volunteers have to be respectful of certain policies. but the org also knows its still a community and will try and address certain concerns brought before them, many times relying on volunteers. yet the org doesnt always have the time and resources to do much, and its not a comfortable or nice situation being the volunteer that delivers news to people who raise concerns and dont agree with the outcome. this often includes not being able to give you a better answer than "no."

Here and There, I will do my best to reply to you in only the most serious way. Thank you for your input on the commerce issue.


and she has always served you well in this capacity, and continues to do a better job at it than everyone else. ultimately you dont want to isolate her over it, because she's usually on your side.

sometimes... not much can be done about it, and yes, i know it sucks to be told that. you would need an abacus to count the number of times its happened to me. :D
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Postby Here and there » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:21 pm

AntiM wrote:May I ask if I ever attacked you personally,



Yes, you have. Question already answered, but it will be addressed again, below.


AntiM wrote:making implications about your mental state




When you act at one moment as if you've completely forgotten what you've said at the last, to say that some will wonder about your mental state is not to make a personal attack, it is to state a fact. Note that I do not endorse the conclusions that they might draw. I simply state that people are likely to draw them.

But again, and I get the feeling that I'd end up using this expression very often with you - I think you know that.



AntiM wrote:or age? I have not.




What is the pop psychology expression - "acting as if"? How is mentioning your age "disrespectful"? Seeing how posting that little rolling eye graphic you seem to love so much is disrespectful, should be easy, but exactly what is so terrible about being 60? Answer: absolutely nothing, and we all know it. But affect an air of victimhood, get some of the softer headed readers to see a personal attack where none exists, and let the misperception you've generated do your work for you.

You play that kind of game a lot, so yes, I'm calling you on it.


AntiM wrote:
They might even wonder if this woman was using drugs, or had gone off some kind of medication.




I invite anybody with an open mind and an IQ higher than his shoe size to look at your responses in that thread and to note how utterly bizarre they were. Anybody on the receiving end of what you dished out, with a firm sense of self and no drug habit, would have been left wondering what could possibly been going through your mind.

I report a bug, I get this from somebody who supposed to be one of the people trying to make things run sort of smoothly



AntiM wrote:I can delete your post, but somehow I don't think you'd be happy with that, hmmm?




and then watch you act like you've somehow been victimized by my noticing that you've just made a threat, going so far as to cast aspersions on my intelligence



AntiM wrote:Apparently, you're reading tone into words on a screen, I would have thought you were too savvy for a rookie error such as that.




and then later pretend that you hadn't written anything disrespectful. If, back in the earlier thread, we were to assume good faith where it is clearly absent, and assume that you meant every word you wrote, that would imply ... what ... that you didn't remember what you had written a short while ago, or didn't understand your own words? What would that have said about your mental state? If, on the other hand, we assume that neither was the case, then what we were and are seeing out of you is a head game, and you know it.

Let's take a look at the job you chose to do, as you moderated that first thread. You had a threat to give to somebody who wrote a patient, straightforward answer to a mindbogglingly stupid question, which I can now see to have been a faux naif trolling, but not a single thing to say in response to an in-your face trolling in which somebody made the bizarre assertion that reporting a bug in a section marked "Bug Reports" constituted "whining", and another in which somebody else suggested that to make such a report was to create drama. Leading me to ask the question to which nobody on this board has yet given a sensible reply.



And the purpose of setting up a bug report board if one isn't supposed to report the presence of bugs would be... ?




Note that at this point in the discussion, I had yet to express any anger whatsover, as any even marginally honest person can see simply by scrolling up the screen, though God knows I would have had ample reason to do so, already. The "support" I saw from the modstaff as I put that section of ePlaya to its stated use consisted of you trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth - much as you are doing, right now - and Dork living up to his name, by dishonestly pretending that I had gone out to provoke you, rather than the other way around. Rather than trying to get the trolling under control, you two were out there, providing moral support to those who had been running a clusterfuck on somebody for reporting a bug, on a bug report board.

That was inexcusable.



AntiM wrote:
The practice of hazing is something that makes a teenager look bad, and we're seeing it out of a woman who looks like she's in her early 60s, old enough to know better and young enough to function.




In other words "you're an elder, so act like one". Kids get to be stupid, because they're kids and that's what they do. At your age, you're supposed to be setting an example, not going out and acting like the girl we warn our younger relatives to avoid. "More is expected out of you" is disrespectful? How do you figure that?



AntiM wrote:
That's just sad. I'd block her, but she's a mod, and the system won't let me do that, so I'll have to wait until she gets put out to pasture or put to sleep or whatever gets done with moderators when their time has come.




So out there as to obviously be a joke, but I'll give you that much. Knowing that you were around, I shouldn't have posted the words you've set in bold. My error was in assuming you had a sense of humor. I guess it's just as well that I didn't write anything about a mod on my board having had to have been put down after he broke his leg. You'd probably have called the police.



AntiM wrote:
Because when I take time out of my day to offer you a suggestion as to how you might deal with a recurring problem, I'm doing you a favor, and I'm not going to take garbage out of you for doing so.




I'd say "damn straight", were those not my own words. I don't tend to high 5 myself. The angle's kind of awkward, and people look at me funny when I do that. Yes, AntiM, that was a joke. I'll try to remember to mark those for you, if I ever make the mistake of speaking with you, again. Really, you'd think I'd have learned my lesson by now, but I do have the bad habit of giving second chances to those who don't deserve them. And third chances, and fourth, and fifth ...

What am I getting out of this? Better functioning for a board that I might post to a few times per year? On a number of occasions, I have dropped everything to go help out a total stranger on this board. Not once have I ever heard the words "thank you" offered except in a snarky way, unless we count a few words you slipped into your posts above, as you went on the attack while pretending that you weren't. Again.

Any time I want to play games, I'll grab a chessboard and head down to the nearest coffeehouse. You might be having fun right now, in fact I'm sure you are, but I'm not. Under the circumstances, there are a few things that I've decided to never do, ever again.



1. Report a bug on this board. Clearly, it's just not worth the aggravation.
2. Help anybody with anything.
3. Offer any suggestions about anything to anybody.



What I might do is minimum effort stuff like posting photos, but only if I think I'm going to get something out of it. Like traffic. The lurkers might be worth a damn, but you people aren't.
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