Fuck Flag Burning! Let's argue about "assault" rif

Postby jkisha » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm

gyre wrote:I have actively used a weapon to protect myself six or seven times.
I only pointed it at someone twice and had it at the ready a few others.
The most successful times are when the access to a gun alone is enough.
I can't begin to estimate the number of crimes and threats that have been avoided by the awareness of criminals that I am able to defend myself.


Where the hell do you live? I have never owned a gun, never had any call to use one (not counting the army) and have never had a crime perpetrated against my person--and I'm over 60 years old.

(This doesn't count the times I have had my house broken into, or my car, but none of those could have been prevented by me owning a gun. They probably would have stollen my gun had I had one.)

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Postby gyre » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:16 pm

I'm in memphis and we are the highest crime city in the country right now.
I found oakland refreshingly non-threatening.

The interesting thing about not having a gun is that you still benefit from people that carry.
When the violent criminals can't tell who's armed, crime patterns change for all.

It's too bad I'm told L.A. is where we were forty years ago.
My permit extends all the way to the california border.
Permits were for the wealthy and influential until the crime rate overwhelmed public opinion.
The police are happier that they aren't dealing with honest but "illegally" armed citizens that don't want to be arrested (which is the situation in most of california).
And self defense shootings are less likely to be "unsolved homicides" because people aren't willing to deal with the police.

Now when the police ask me if I'm armed, I can say of course.
And we have a laugh.


Alarms create a change to home invasions and carjacking.
Self defense causes criminals to switch to safer business practices.
The combination of the two makes people carrying reduce your risks.
Talk to your politicians about that.

Electronic security drives much crime into direct personal contact.


In the area of gun security and general security, concealed compartments help in a way that conventional security can't.
I have never lost anything concealed.
I have been researching this and will start a thread.
It is very useful for handguns due to size.
A small gun safe in a car can handle cash, cameras and so on too without being large or obtrusive.

Often property crime is connected to someone living in your area.
In those cases, being known to be armed has an effect.
It can't help in every case, of course.

On a less subtle note, I hung a qualification target on the back of my house.
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Postby **burn** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:26 pm

Gyre -

Do you have a non-resident Florida permit?
I know they reciprocate with 28 States.
I have sent my application...

I have read the book by John Lott 'More Guns, Less Crime'
and his statistics back up exactly what you are saying about non-gun owners benefitting from the actions of gun-owners. I highly recommend this book.

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Cr ... 146&sr=8-1
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Postby gyre » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:47 am

Florida recognizes nevada residence permits and my state.

The only states that don't allow me to carry are
California
Oregon
Washington
Nebraska
Iowa
Illinois
Wisconsin
Hawaii
the states east of Pennsylvania
except Vermont and New Hampshire which do.

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry ... _maps.html

Honors TN Permit:
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Wyoming

TN Permit Not Honored:
California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington, Guam, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, District of Columbia

TN Res Permits Only:
Colorado, Florida, Kansas, Michigan, New Hampshire, South Carolina, West Virginia

Right Denied:
Illinois, Wisconsin, American Samoa, N. Mariana Islands
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Postby Toolmaker » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:20 am

**burn** wrote:LF -

Gun registration falls to the States. (For instance, in Nevada there is no required registration. California and Hawaii are mandatory registration.) The only time registration is required on a federal level is when a Federal Firearms Licensee (gun shop) disposes of two hanguns within five business days. Then it is mandatory.


Federal registration is required on full auto and supressed as well as "shorties". These items while Federally legal are not necessarily legal in all states. Class 3 licenses aren't handed out on a whim either I might add, you will have to have a CLEAN record. Those in CA are all too familiar with how restrictive a state can be on their own regardless of federal law, same goes for NJ and Wash DC to name a couple more.
One way naughty folk get guns is the gun shows, citizens do not have to do anything to xfer to each other on a Federal level.

FC: Anti-gun lobbyists often to to spread stuff similar to those stories you posted along with some bogus stats. The truth of the matter is that these are few and far between. When compared to folks succesfully defending themselves the stats just look insane. One of my favorites of the Brady ppl is the stat on how many die from guns each year, what they don't tell ya is that this number INCLUDES those shot in self defense and those shot by law enforcement. When they say "X ppl got killed this year by guns" it means just that. Stats like this are used to mislead non-gun folk into thinkin that crime is on the rise etc etc. This just is not true either, the population IS growing and will account for growth but crime has been on the decline in many areas. Those states that saw an aggressive pro-gun stance and CCW program had the most decrease in crime. The last thing a rapist or robber wants is an armed victim. Just look at Wash DC, guns were totally banned yet it remains one of the most dangerous places to go in the US. Regardless of laws on the books criminals will continue to break them. Even if ALL firearms were outlawed ppl would still get murdered albiet with knives or explosives. Most mechanically inclined folk know how easy it is to make some ghetto homemade gun with just some home depot hardware.
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Postby **burn** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:05 am

Yes, Toolmaker, NFA is completely different. Each device is registered. And I am happy to live in Nevada's Class III friendly State.

There is (another) book out there titled Overkill stating that 40k persons per year are wrongly targeted citizens of our paramilitary police. http://www.catostore.org/index.asp?fa=P ... id=1441318

To add to your post to LF:
As for guns being outlawed, look at Australia. The crime rate has gone up since they heavily restricted firearm ownership. Now they were thinking of (or might have already) banning knives as well. Any item can be a weapon. Your hands. A pencil. A chair.
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Postby fciron » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:17 am

Gyre, you are the one person I know who has used a gun to prevent a crime. The woman who was raped and guns that were stolen are all people I know in Louisville, not stories I heard. Both sides seem to present statistics that match their stances, so I rely on my personal experience to make this decision.

I also did not state that I lived in a place with no restrictions, I said that as far as I can tell the position taken by the gun lobby is that any restriction of firearms or ammunition will lead to the rise of fascism if the criminals don't get us first. This is just as ridiculous as saying that only the police and military should have access to firearms.

I think you may have missed the thrust of my post - if you want to be protected from hysterical gun control legislation then help to create sensible gun control laws. There is a large portion of the population who know nothing of guns but what they see on TV. The assault rifle hysteria of a few years ago is a good example and it led to pointless laws based more on keywords used in the news than any real facts about firearms. There is a large middle ground that is left completely out of the discussion.

I would suggest that the vast majority of the population has no interest in owning or using an assault rifle, so when a ban is proposed it slides by because most people just think that a rifle for assaulting is, by definition, not the kind of thing you want on the streets. They need to hear something more persuasive than "cold, dead fingers" or threats of one-world government.
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Postby Toolmaker » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:28 pm

fciron wrote:Gyre, you are the one person I know who has used a gun to prevent a crime.


I have also used a gun to prevent a crime. There have also been more than a few close calls. Two of the worst close calls required me to bring out the AR, one during the Rodney King mini riot and one recently during the Obama celebration. The Obama hate crime self defense thing almost came to shots being fired at people. I don't think the attackers know how close they came to getting stitched after those warning shots.

Now you know TWO people!
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Postby gyre » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:34 pm

Obama?
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Postby Toolmaker » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:15 pm

gyre wrote:Obama?


A small group of black muslims with 5 percenter tats and some nation of islam supporters came through my neighborhood on some racist BS calling out with bullhorns for all whites to report to the cotton fields at 7AM for indoctrination. One had a bat and was hitting cars, many had concealed handguns with that telltale bulge from the grip out of the waistband and one had an AK. When my truck was hit with the bat I came out and fired some warning shots.. the standoff only lasted a few seconds but it felt like an eternity. I'll go take a pic of the damage and post it here tonight.

FYI concerning 5 percenters

http://www.blackapologetics.com/fivepercentfaq

ADDED:
OK here is a pic of the turn signal that got smashed and the second is the side of the badger mutant vehicle that got bodyslammed into the side. If I wasn't already planning on covering the whole truck with a giant badger I would have shot somebody. I probably should have shot the fucker with the bat since I will not be able to replace my grill, headlight mount, and turn signal anytime soon. What a nice way to celebrate a black president right.. attack every pickup in sight.

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Postby gyre » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:46 pm

Too crazy for the NOI?
Wow!

So what's the Obama connection?


I ran across this using the Rushmore Drive search engine.
Not relevant here, but interesting for defense training and other things.

http://www.policeone.com/writers/column ... es/508959/
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Postby fciron » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:52 pm

Toolmaker, I appreciate you sharing your experience, but I haven't polled everyone whose username I recognize on the internet. Gyre and I were plotting a rideshare to BM and have spoken on the phone so I included him in the group of people I know. (As opposed to my imaginary friends from the internet.)

Given the pitch of this thread I expected to hear from at least one other person who had used their gun in self defense, so it doesn't change my basic point. If you don't want to be subject to silly gun control legislation then help write good legislation.
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Postby Toolmaker » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:57 pm

gyre wrote:Too crazy for the NOI?
Wow!

So what's the Obama connection?


I ran across this using the Rushmore Drive search engine.
Not relevant here, but interesting for defense training and other things.

http://www.policeone.com/writers/column ... es/508959/


Well amongst the many racial slurs and demands that whitey report to the cotton field Obamas name was mentioned all during the "celebration march". This happened RIGHT after the election win was announced. One of my favorite lines being used by the mob was the following.. "Now that a nigga got elected you honkeys are gonna pay for oppressin us for 400 years". I don't think I will ever get that one out of my head. Every now and then they would chant OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA in unison. If only these gangs showed the same solidarity when it comes to stopping the violence against the community and getting educated maybe they wouldn't have to blame whitey for their woes.

I gotta admit.. I was in serious fear for my wife and gf.. not so much the property. I really thought shots were gonna be fired and that this would escalate into riot celebration like the sports finals. I had a feeling something was gonna jump off in my area after seeing all the Change tshirts and other racist propaganda in support of Obama.

In their defense I prolly deserved having the truck hit since there is a bumper sticker that says "Bikers Make Better Lovers". I counted over a dozen cars on my block that had various windows broken and dents.. after they realized the 308 is no joke they figured it be best to call it a night.

ADDED:

Here is the direct link to the hate group for any interested.

http://www.allahsnation.net/

Groups like these are why I don't feel the need for further gun legislation. I would rather see the current laws enforced. I'm just glad I had similar hardware that the gangbangers had. If Clintonistas and Obamas have their way only those willing to break the law will have the guns. I don't look forward to defense with a bolt action and a revolver against mobs with full autos and high capacity semi-autos.
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Postby gyre » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:13 pm

fciron wrote:Toolmaker, I appreciate you sharing your experience, but I haven't polled everyone whose username I recognize on the internet. Gyre and I were plotting a rideshare to BM and have spoken on the phone so I included him in the group of people I know. (As opposed to my imaginary friends from the internet.)

Given the pitch of this thread I expected to hear from at least one other person who had used their gun in self defense, so it doesn't change my basic point. If you don't want to be subject to silly gun control legislation then help write good legislation.

I think you'll find most people don't talk about it.
It isn't that comfortable to point a gun at someone and fire.

You do know the person in memphis I mentioned.

Aside from any training, there is a different body language when someone knows they can protect themselves.
Most people can't fake that.
Impossible to say how many times someone isn't a victim because of something primal that is picked up on.
I know it happens.

Very few people will tell you they are armed if they once didn't approve or think you don't.
Many never tell anyone.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:06 pm

**burn** wrote:Switzerland was the only country in Europe not overtaken by Hitler.
This is because the Germans found it useful to have a place to sell looted gold and buy war supplies.
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Postby fciron » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:19 pm

Gyre, I am not arguing against concealed carry. I actually like concealed carry because it requires that people undergo at least nominal training and prove that they can hit a target. It's the other knuckleheads that I worry about.

I am simply saying that it is not a black and white issue. There are a lot of people who are very scared of guns and want to see some government control over the sales and use of firearms. These are the people who are least qualified to write that legislation. As long as you continue to treat the discussion as if I want to take your guns away you will be leaving the legislation in the hands of extremists on the other side.
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Postby gyre » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:25 pm

I think the prospect of capturing rail lines they needed, that had had all bridges and tunnels destroyed and dealing with a well trained sniper and sabotage force in some of the most effective terrain on earth for this, was also a detail they considered.
The swiss have now revealed some of the hidden fortifications they had prepared for hitler.
That means they have something better now.
They continue to mine all transport routes.

It is good terrain to not have someone trying to shoot at you, especially from above.


The germans tried every method they could to persuade the swiss to allow rail movement.
That was what they wanted most.

It seems possible they needed a neutral country for many reasons too, such as obtaining things they had to import, espionage and so on, aside from banking.
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Postby gyre » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:59 pm

fciron wrote:Gyre, I am not arguing against concealed carry. I actually like concealed carry because it requires that people undergo at least nominal training and prove that they can hit a target. It's the other knuckleheads that I worry about.

I am simply saying that it is not a black and white issue. There are a lot of people who are very scared of guns and want to see some government control over the sales and use of firearms. These are the people who are least qualified to write that legislation. As long as you continue to treat the discussion as if I want to take your guns away you will be leaving the legislation in the hands of extremists on the other side.

I'm not taking it that way.
But I find the current laws extreme already and getting worse, if only due to the states being allowed to add so much detail that is unknown but very harmful.
The states effectively decide if you pass a federal background check by the way they write laws and keep records.

My instant background check would have taken months if I had followed normal procedures. (or forever)
It only took weeks of my time to speed it along.
All problems were with the state.
It really is a miracle anyone can clear it.

The current trend to criminalize paper offenses can already result in felony charges for innocuous things.


We have a situation similar to drug laws.
They debate things they have no control over.
A lot of fuss over weapons when there is no border control due to the drug black market the government props up!
If they can't stop a box of pseudophedrine coming over the border, they know they have no control over weapons in the hands of criminals.
They bragged about stopping the sale of pseudophedrine here to people that need it.
The rate of meth availability went up sharply as the price rose and they began shipping it in concentrated liquid form through mexico.
So now there is more meth and a stronger smuggling system, which I'm guessing will ship illegal weapons too.
The thing to bear in mind that the only way to keep these weapons out of the hands of criminals once they enter the country is for honest people to own them.
I don't think that is possible now unless people are deceived into purchasing them.
So they will go to criminals for what the market will bear.

There are ramifications to every law.
There are far more gun laws than most people realize now.
For the most part, they cost citizens money.
That is the only "benefit".
Harmful consequences abound.

They haven't managed to legislate adequate driver training yet.
I am not sure it can be done for those that won't seek it on their own, for guns or cars.
It would be a good idea to make the training free.
Cost is the main obstacle to people taking it.

They made it illegal to shoot people without justification a long time ago.
Self defense law needs to go much further to protect those that do it.
I really can't think of any other crucial laws needed in regard to guns.
Habitual criminals and those that aren't really criminals already have limited rights.

The real rules of the "assault weapons law" read as a massive financial gift to usa rifle manufacturers.
Much of the atf rules still have the same effect now.
Just a huge ripoff for the consumer.

All I really see is a pendulum that is starting to swing the right way.
The democratic party has been getting the message beat into the leadership that if they don't listen to the public on this issue they will keep losing.
It cost gore the election, in that the election would not have been fixable with a larger majority.
And if Obama does anything stupid in this area, the republicans will be back in for years.
God help us all.
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Postby fciron » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:28 am

Gyre, it sounds like we've reached the same place from opposite directions. Now if we can just get some people in charge to do the same thing we'll be all set.

:roll:
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Postby littleflower » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:26 am

i brought up switzerland earlier because i had no idea how well armed the swiss population was until a swiss friend told me.

the thing is, this friend is not the picture i have in my mind of a gun-toting type. i think that we are all but trained in this country to see people with guns as rednecks, neo-nazis, drug runners, muggers, &c - i.e., people who are either too stupid or too violent to be trusted with them - rarely, just as good citizens who want to be able to defend their homes and, if necessary, their country.

of course, intelligent, responsible gun owners who cause no trouble are boring ....

as a person who wants nothing to do with guns, i would like to see them registered and regulated ... but i'm pessimistic that it will happen as long as there is a strong anti-gun lobby, working from inaccurate popular perceptions, trying to take them from law abiding people. most people i know with guns have at least one that is not registered, for fear that the government will take it away. i don't like this ... but i can't blame them, either.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:59 pm

gyre wrote:The germans tried every method they could to persuade the swiss to allow rail movement.
That was what they wanted most.
They had it, at least for food.
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Postby gyre » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:43 pm

I was thinking of military bric-à-brac, arms and so on.
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Postby gyre » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:14 pm

littleflower wrote:as a person who wants nothing to do with guns, i would like to see them registered and regulated ... but i'm pessimistic that it will happen as long as there is a strong anti-gun lobby, working from inaccurate popular perceptions, trying to take them from law abiding people. most people i know with guns have at least one that is not registered, for fear that the government will take it away. i don't like this ... but i can't blame them, either.

Ran across this thread and I wanted to point out that registration doesn't really exist in the USA, except for assault rifles and other automatic rifles, with the exception of chicago and california perhaps (and the mythology of television).

The history of usa gun legislation tells all that we should fear new rules, and they change every month.
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Postby Lassen Forge » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:10 pm

gyre wrote:
littleflower wrote:as a person who wants nothing to do with guns... most people i know with guns have at least one that is not registered, for fear that the government will take it away. i don't like this ... .

Ran across this thread and I wanted to point out that registration doesn't really exist in the USA, except for assault rifles and other automatic rifles, with the exception of chicago and california perhaps (and the mythology of television).

The history of usa gun legislation tells all that we should fear new rules, and they change every month.


+10K.

Ya know... I apologize for abbreviating Flower's post... but it makes a serious point - that those who have no idea about firearms are usually the first to scream that the rest of our rights be forcibly removed from us.

I know - firsthand - that an armed populace reduces crime. Look at your Switzerland, yeah, they have COMPULSORY firearms ownership and training. Source of national PRIDE, not shame.

How many times to you hear of the swiss murdering each other? Yeah... thought not.

I lived in Phoenix for a while, that has a very liberal open carry law - the bakery I worked at was a rough neighborhood - but surprise surprise, we never got hit. Know why? We ALL carried, the guys in holsters, us women in the tops of our purses (so you could see them).

California... DC... NYC... NJ... Chicago...

ALL states that HATE upstanding citizens to have the right of firearm possession to defend themselves. Look at THEIR violent crime rate...

One more thing. THis may sound sexist... but if upstanding non-criminal record bearing women had the unfettered right to carry concealed, and instead of being brainwashed how evil guns are (never understood that!!), encouraged to DEFEND themselves, practice with firearms, etc, guess what would happen to the numbers so far as violence against women, rape, etc?

Never mind... I know how safe I am in a state where I can carry concealed legally. I also know how unsafe I am when that right is taken away. The one really bad assault - that I was really lucky to survive alive out of - that I experienced was in London, UK. You'd like it there, flower - guns are illegal.

Of course that only lets the hardcore KNOW they're safe to do as they wish - the bobbies are 15-21 minutes away on the average.

So if you hate guns... Move somewhere safe... like London - where you won't have someone like me with an evil nasty gun there to save you from the assholes wielding 10" butcher knives and looking at you like lunch!

Have a nice day.

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Postby ygmir » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:04 pm

law or no, legal or not, some folks will carry anyway.........

I refer to the old adage: (I may have posted this before, if so, please excuse my repetition)

To wit:

"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"
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Postby TomServo » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:56 pm

anything worth doing..is worth overdoing

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Postby maryanimal » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:18 pm

The state of Washington has concealed weapons laws. I have a concealed weapons permit Although at this time I don't have a gun, I'd still like to get a glock or a ruger. I used to have a double action ruger with a 15 round clip and I loved it. Very little kick and fit perfectly in my hand. It amazed me when people find out I have a permit to carry a gun. I get some negative feed back. I tell them it it comes down to me and my family or "them", I'd shoot "them" where they stood if I had absolutely no other option. I won't accept some little puke telling me what I should do or me and my family will get hurt. Fuck that shit.*ahem* I've been attacked a few times in my life and was at the mercy of some asshole and that will never happen to me again.

If I could find a ruger or glock with a pink handle I'd be one happy girl!
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Postby gyre » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:25 pm

Tell them they get an opinion the next time they stand between you and a criminal.


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Postby maryanimal » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:50 pm

Any color?? Neato burrito! I did see a .45 with a pink handle but I didn't recognize the name. I don't remember the name but it was a nice gun. It was on sale for $170.00 but the original price wasn't on it. so I had my doubts about it.
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Postby gyre » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:33 pm

$170?
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