Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

All things outside of Burning Man.

Postby ygmir » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:52 pm

there's a drooling smiley somewhere, I've seen it......I'd put several here now......
it that at Knob Creek?

I think you can make certain firearms research and development things with limited licensing issues, it's production that they get nasty about.......

The only way to eliminate flash is to have all powder burnt before exiting the barrel, and cooled, too.........almost impossible...........

I'm pretty sure "silencers" are federally illegal..........

and of course, the round has to be sub-sonic to work anyway...........

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Postby gyre » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:18 pm

Not illegal, just regulated to a fare thee well.
I could design and build them, but the rules make it too expensive.
I have to jump through hoops even if I never come up with a good product and then I would have to sell it for 400% over value.
Of course, they are never silent, just making reports bearable.
I can't stand the enclosed ranges even with hearing protection.
We fired about 500 rounds in a friend's backyard, but as more people move in, his neighbors may not be so tolerant.

Besides subsonics, some actions are louder than the shot.
That's why serious suppressed weapons are bolt action.
Not what I was looking for, but here are a few.
Standard production items for other countries.
Easier to have in Texas, they tell me.
http://www.autoweapons.com/products/suppressors.html

Knob Creek, yes.
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Postby DVD Burner » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:23 pm

cowboyangel wrote:I think I'm giving up on politicians too....they don't run things anyway.


you are finally realizing this?
How many years have I been telling you this? :)
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Postby cowboyangel » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:58 pm

suppressors are allowed in Texas, just have to get a federal certificate for them. Same with full auto there too.
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Postby mdmf007 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:37 pm

Suppressors and full auto are legal just about everywhere with an FFL.

Its actually rude to hunt or target shoot in some european countries WITHOUT a suppressor.
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Postby TomServo » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:50 pm

FFL or Class 3?
anything worth doing..is worth overdoing

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Postby mdmf007 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:21 am

First one - then the other.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:51 am

wow, those dragon breath shells sound nifty!

they would add some flavor to your ordinary "nut busters"


take a cork, drill a hole thru it, gently slide a roofing nail in said cork, attach to firing end of 12 ga. with lead tape (for weight) add fins made from plastic, cardboard, whatever....


toss whole box of these fuckers off a roof.


talk about crowd control. they explode and send shrap in a 360 pattern at approx. crotch level, hence the term.

i do not condone this and have never tried it. (legal disclaimer)
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Postby **burn** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:16 am

cowboyangel wrote:suppressors are allowed in Texas, just have to get a federal certificate for them. Same with full auto there too.


Also have to clear a local background. They actually knock on your neighbors doors here and ask about you.

For the federal, fingerprints and background check required.
And a $200 'tax' stamp. Unless it's grandfathered as an "AOW" than it's only a $5 stamp. Makes the AOW very attractive.

There's an excellent suppressor manufacturer out of Idaho - Gem-tech. They would meet us in Ely and we would squirrel shoot for the farmers for the weekend.
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Postby EspressoDude » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:23 am

Toolmaker wrote:
TomServo wrote:Waiting to try a Dragon's Breath shell..


I assure you they are loads of fun. Especially if fired at a woodpile soaked in gasoline with some tires on top.


see:

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Postby **burn** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:38 am

I have watched the videos from Knob Creek and have a craving to play with the flame thrower. :lol:
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Postby cowboyangel » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:44 am

You can go to the range I use in Alpine any time of the day....though those flame thrower jobs are nasty fire starters, I'd be extremely careful. Then the good ole Brits have invented the frag-16 Shit. That's all we need on the streets, if they get out illegally, a mini grenade.
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Postby CapSmashy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:29 am

gyre wrote:Not illegal, just regulated to a fare thee well.
I could design and build them, but the rules make it too expensive.
I have to jump through hoops even if I never come up with a good product and then I would have to sell it for 400% over value.
Of course, they are never silent, just making reports bearable.
I can't stand the enclosed ranges even with hearing protection.
We fired about 500 rounds in a friend's backyard, but as more people move in, his neighbors may not be so tolerant.[/b]


Not really much in the way of hoops. All you need is a FFL Type 07 Manufacturer of Firearms license with a Title 2 SOT (special occupation tax) stamp to build NFA regulated items. Suppressors, sbr's, full autos, all of them can be legally manufactured with this license and stamp combo. Build the item and send in a form that you have manufactured the item.

The 07 FFL will run you $150 for 3 years and the SOT is either $500 or $1000 annually depending on your business volume.

As for pricing and marketing, that's up to you. People charge out the ass for suppressors because they can. If you can develop one that is cheap to manufacture, reliable and durable (or easy maintenance in terms of replacing the baffles, etc) and that does not require any major modifications to the weapon and sell them for $75 a piece, do it. You'll either corner the market or force other manufacturer's to bring their pricing down.
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Postby gyre » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:36 am

I think there are some expensive regulations about how you run your business that would apply.
It makes getting started very pricey.
That may be the purpose.
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Postby CapSmashy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:59 am

gyre wrote:I think there are some expensive regulations about how you run your business that would apply.
It makes getting started very pricey.
That may be the purpose.


No expensive regulations at all on the federal side. The ATF licenses and normal compliance with any pertinent safety regulations concerning equipment use or gas storage. Basic OSHA stuff you'd have to follow in any manufacturing business.

The only issues you may run into in terms of regulations/permits are at the local level.
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Postby gyre » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:17 am

We ran into a slew concerning custom gun manufacture.
I would think this would fall under that.
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Postby ygmir » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:23 am

It seems I remember something about prototype construction and if you initially make less than 5 or something like that for testing, it was easier. the big stuff happened when you go into "production".......
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Postby CapSmashy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:45 am

gyre wrote:We ran into a slew concerning custom gun manufacture.
I would think this would fall under that.


Were you building one as a civilian and trying to get it registered? For an NFA complaint long gun, all you need to do is file an ATF Form 01. If you are planning on manufacturing several NFA complaint long guns, a Type 07 FFL would be more practical to maintain.



I currently have a Type 01 (dealer's license) FFL and a Type 07 (manufacturer) FFL and I maintained the SOT on my dealer's license for 3 years for the purpose of transferring full automatic weapons into my office for movie work. I am applying for my SOT on my manufacturing license in the fall to start building my own inventory for movie use.
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Postby gyre » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:13 am

No.
What we found to be an issue was restrictions once you sell anything.
Production, security and so on.
Many hidden costs.
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Postby CapSmashy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:17 pm

gyre wrote:No.
What we found to be an issue was restrictions once you sell anything.
Production, security and so on.
Many hidden costs.


Those aren't restrictions, that's the cost of doing business.

Anything you manufacture is going to have production costs. The mnore precise the item, the higher the production costs in terms of materials and tools to manufacture those parts. If you are producing expensive items made from expensive components on expensive tools, security is simply another cost of doing business.

The ATF does require you to provide a secure location for the weapons and items to be stored. The $79 Stack On 8 gun safes I bought at Academy were adequate for the ATF agent that came out and gave my shop a once over.

Gun safes/secure location for firearms are items any gun owner should already have.
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Postby dana » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:08 pm

mdmf007 wrote:Its actually rude to hunt or target shoot in some european countries WITHOUT a suppressor.


Like shooting them, but hate hearing someone else shooting - especially when its nice and quiet.

Here's a question for anyone who can answer. Trying to legally quiet down a 22 rifle for shooting around the property: subsonics help, but would one of those 'accurizers' you can put on a 10/22 help a little more? (They look like they might disperse the exiting gasses.) I assume most of the noise is at the muzzle, but would one of those synthetic wrapped barrels help?
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Postby mdmf007 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:24 pm

Dana -

anything that slows the discharge cloud of gasses would suppress noise. While not meant to be suppressors muzzle brakes, and flah suppressors also knock some DB's off of the report.
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Postby gyre » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:39 pm

Be sure to check the variety of possible rules under which the atf in it's infinite whimsy might consider anything you do to be an illegal attempt to avoid disturbing the neighbors.
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Postby mdmf007 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:53 pm

gyre wrote:Be sure to check the variety of possible rules under which the atf in it's infinite whimsy might consider anything you do to be an illegal attempt to avoid disturbing the neighbors.


ATF and gun law enforcement - I particularly like their enforcement at Ruby Ridge.

Hire a guy to saw a shotgun down then issue a warrant for his arrest. When he FTA's you shoot and kill his wife, son friend and Dog.

ATF is one of them agencies that needs a reality check. The intent of the law and the letter of the law should both be taken into consideration.

IMO Gyres got a great point about making sure whatever you do is legal, or if not - dont advertise.
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Postby **burn** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:46 pm

gyre wrote:Many hidden costs.


Insurance is a killer. One of the few outfits offering insurance is the NRA.
The liability is so high and so politically incorrect that not many will take the risk, and those who do offer at extraordinary costs.
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Postby TomServo » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:26 am

Anyone familiar with the Hungarian AK? SA 85M... Why the shortened gas tube? It's a personal annoyance..not cosmetic, but because I can't figure out why.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:40 am

i was actually under BATF jurisdiction for 21 days as they sent me to Lakeside Center for the Mentally disturbed for observation in Sparks.

after they determined that i wasnt a Terrorist (with a name like simon? please...) and that i was'nt a HINKLEY, and that all i wanted to do was a little plinking (which the locals understood all too well) they bumped me back to the Local jurisdiction (Pershing County) to serve out the rest of what would end up being a 60 day sentence, time served, no probo, no parole, class c misdemeanor.

Lakeside is the shits, though.....if you are going to be in for any extended period of time, i highly recommend the crazy route...you get a private room, your own toidy, access to a library, A MENU for the food, which was actually DECENT (i have a taste for institutional food, i LIKE MRE's, and potatos from a box, i dont know why, i just do)

and they have movie night, with popcorn!


not to mention you are no longer a prisoner, you are a "client"...

of course, you do run the big risk of going crazy by proximity.

after a while, i'm sure by absorption of the lunacy surrounding you, some of it's gonna rub off and stick.

but, getting back to my original comment, the BATF sucks ass, and all of my contact with any agents was generally unpleasant, as they are rude as fuck.

but i still like my response in the first couple hours of questioning...

"do you have any drugs?"

"no sir, i used them ALL, i'm certain, i double checked, believe me."

and i had, so i didnt really get hammered on the legal end of things.


i never lied to them, i may have obfuscated a few times, but my best suggestion to anyone caught at burningman for any reason is to be polite, respectful, answer the questions truthfully, but minimally. DONT INCRIMINATE YOURSELF OR OTHERS....shut the hell up if you have any doubts. wait for your lawyer.

and dont make trouble, you'll end up in "CHOLOVILLE", which is where they keep all the mexicans, and trust me, as a white boy, you DONT want to go there...

so there it is sports fans, a guide to the local clinks.

(one other recommendation, i believe that if you arrested in Washoe county (gerlach) you end up going to RENO, and quite frankly, i've heard that's a hell-hole filled with prisoners from across the state, because reno sub-contracts this service to henderson county as well as others)

all in all, best advice is to AVOID CONTACT.
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Postby goathead » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:56 am

TomServo wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:in the good ol' days there used to be a shooting gallery on the old playa.


their still is on 4th of July. missed it this year, but got to play with exploding targets last year. Waiting to try a Dragon's Breath shell..


Ever play with Tannerite?

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Postby cowboyangel » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:58 pm

Not me , but I have with loads of thermite. Now if the Bmorg really had balls, they'd set up a special safety zone way off from everything else on the playa, and those of us who wanted to, could shoot tannerite at a Burning Man idol, loaded with tannerite targets.
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Postby mdmf007 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:12 pm

Best advice when dealing with LE and you know youarent guilty is to be polite.

Contrary to what many believe 0 you are under no obligation to report a crime, to testify to a crime or to incriminate yourself. Simply asking for an attorney and excercising your rights is always available.

Dont consent to a search - make them get a warrant.
LE's are allowed to lie to get the information they need.
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